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Old 01-02-2006, 09:10 AM   #101
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I have a random related question.

On a MUD I used to IMM for, I would send out a random gecho daily just reminding people to vote if they hadn't yet. There was nothing coded into the game, nor was there any benefit/repercussion from doing so. Would this tie into forced reminders on TMS?

I haven't really read through the rules yet, since I haven't listed my MUD here at all yet.
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:55 AM   #102
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Threshold @ Jan. 01 2006,21:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If your desire is for TMS to be a more robust site, suggest features to add, or suggest ways to improve the discussion forums. Discussing changes to the vote portion, especially ways that only reduce traffic, is not productive.
Since this thread is about the voting list, I’ll restrict my suggestions to that, for now at least.
So here is a suggestion that I think would really improve the voting list, leaving the discussion about two lists aside for now:

Give each voter a ‘receipt’ that the vote has been accepted/not accepted.

Preferably in the form of a message which, depending on the circumstances, says either
Thanks for your vote. It has been added to the listing. ’  or
Your vote has not been accepted. You may only vote once per 12-hour period. Please wait XX hours until voting again. ’ (The XX hours naturally being the time remaining until next vote is possible).

I understand that this type of timered message is what the muds on top of the list are using in their games, but it would be great if a similar feature could be added to the list for all users. If it is too hard to code the timer, I’d settle for the accepted/not accepted message.

The reason why I ask this is twofold.
Firstly: I am actually not sure whether my votes register at all. I try to vote every day for my favourite mud, but even if I would be the only player voting for it, (which I don’t believe I am), I don’t see it registering even the number of votes that I’ve put in personally. If I vote once a day for 30 days, the game should get 30 votes a month, right? Well, it seems it doesn’t.

Secondly: I don’t mud with a watch in my hand. So it could be that I sometimes click the vote button after 15 or 11 hours, instead of 13 hours. Or it might even happen sometimes, if I’m lagging on the net, that I click the vote button twice, because the page doesn’t change and I get unsure of whether I actually hit it or not.

I don’t think that I am alone in having these problems. Or perhaps it is just something with my server?

A simple message would serve as a receipt that the vote was accepted and also show that the time restriction in the list actually is working, which would be a deterrent for potential spam voters.
A ‘timered’ message would help preventing excessive voting by mistake, and be a big help to those voters that don’t have their muds provide them with reminders in their prompts.

And here is another suggestion: Change the voting period to once per 24 hours. It would be a lot easier to monitor, since it could be coded to accept a vote any time of day within a given date, and there would be no need for the voters to keep track of the exact hours.

Yes, I do realise that this would reduce the voting ‘traffic’ to the site a bit. But again I have to ask which is the main purpose of the site; to register as many brainless clicks as possible, whether they are legitimate or not, or to make the voting process as easy and fair as possible for everyone that uses it? This would be exactly the same condition for all listed muds, and I believe most voters, even the ones from the big commercial muds, would appreciate it. Nobody really likes to be hassled by their game owners to vote twice a day.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:13 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Dec. 31 2005,07:19)
So perhaps the sub-quality commercial MUD owners have it right.
Jason, are you truly unable to ever make a post without insulting someone? Seriously, it's really getting old.

--matt
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:22 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Jan. 02 2006,12:55)
Nobody really likes to be hassled by their game owners to vote twice a day.
Let's stop with the loaded words like 'hassled.' We have hundreds of players that have -chosen- to be reminded twice a day. So does Aardwolf. Aardwolf and Achaea are perpetually on top because players -want- to vote for them. For instance, Achaea currently has about 250 players that have completely voluntarily turned on an option to remind them to vote every 12 hours. They can turn it off with a single command at any time, and nobody cares whether they have it on or not.

That's not being hassled. That's providing a service to players that want it because they want the game they play to be ranked highly.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 02 2006,08:56)
Traffic =! Community. The majority of the traffic clicks to vote and then has nothing else to do with the community. The vast majority of MUDs, however, would benefit from two lists on the front page.

I know I'm arguing to deaf ears, but anyone who reads what you are writing can see that you don't care about the community as a whole, and therefor probably should not deem to represent the site's stance or "purpose".
Click-throughs to TMS result in impressions which are saleable to advertisers.

Let me spell out the process for you:
MUDs send traffic to TMS. MUDs get traffic back somewhat in proportion to how much they send. That's simply fair. You get something back in rough proportion to what you pay. Why anyone has a problem with this, I don't know. I can only theorize that some people are so used to a welfare state that the idea of getting something for nothing is second nature to them.

Every time someone clicks through, an impression is generated. Impressions are what keeps the site alive and what makes Synozeer money, since they can be sold to advertisers for banner ads and such. Reducing impressions = reducing advertising dollars, literally costing Synozeer money.

And don't talk to me about representing the mudding community. My organization directly represents more text MUDers than any other aside from Simutronics. No doubt you or someone else will now call me or imply that I am arrogant for pointing out a plain fact, but there you have it.

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Old 01-02-2006, 04:32 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Jan. 02 2006,14:13)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Dec. 31 2005,07:19)
So perhaps the sub-quality commercial MUD owners have it right.
Jason, are you truly unable to ever make a post without insulting someone? Seriously, it's really getting old.

--matt

And don't talk to me about representing the mudding community. My organization directly represents more text MUDers than any other aside from Simutronics. No doubt you or someone else will now call me or imply that I am arrogant for pointing out a plain fact, but there you have it.
Plenty of the time. That wasn't an insult by the way, it was an observation on my part based on my impression of the vast majority of the commercial MUDs when compared to the best of the MUDding community. I've tried all of IRE's MUDs for example (one of them twice and another three different times over the years just to be fair) and always come to the same conclusion: sub-par in comparison to free-to-play MUDs out there.

And you're a fine one to talk about insults. If I actually wasted my time to cut and paste all the insults you've laid out against countless people on these boards over the years, Synoozer'd have to start an entirely new forum to hold them. Hell, look no further than your post a matter of minutes later:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I can only theorize that some people are so used to a welfare state that the idea of getting something for nothing is second nature to them.
Now, to be fair, am I often an ass? Hell, yes, I do my best to be as straight-forward and as blunt as I can. I don't deny that at all. But don't sit back and pass judgement on me without considering your own behavior.

What is getting old is you and your pathetic desperate attempts to maintain TMS as your personal advertising board, peeing in your pants whenever anyone mentions anything that would make this site more than that. "Traffic exchange" my ass. Is that part of what it is? Yes, I'm not denying that. Is that the only thing it is? No, it's more than that and there are those of us who do think about the usefulness of the site beyond that of just the big commercial MUDs or our own. The difference between our positions is that the "traffic exchange" aspect benefits you (and a few others that rabidly defended your assertion), hence you see it from that perspective. That doesn't make it the only legitimate reason for the site to exist, nor does it even make it the primary reason. And it certainly doesn't make you altruistic through your defense of that position.

As for your last comment, the MUDding community does not thank you, at least this member of it does not, for your ever-so-valiant (insert sarcasm of galactic proportions) representation of the community. While at times you are a good representative of the community (and on those occassions, you'll get your praise from me...if you check, you'll see you have), it's not consistent. Your whole position regarding the purpose of this site demonstrates as much. That's because you're not just arrogant, you're quite often a selfish ass. You may represent a plurality of the "community" through the playerbase of your MUDs, but often you represent it quite poorly and ultimately for your own benefit, not the community's, so hop off your high horse. Do you have a right to look after your investment? Yes. But selfishness isn't an endearing quality so don't expect everyone else to let you be at the community's expense.

Jason
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:40 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I can only theorize that some people are so used to a welfare state that the idea of getting something for nothing is second nature to them.
Again, I'll say it - if you are in the MUDing community to make money and approach it from a purely capitalistic goal, then you're better off working for EverQuest... where *real* money is made. Most MUDers and MUD Admins are in it for the love of the genre and community. I am currently working on a commercial MUD project, but my loyalties still lie with the community as a whole.

As far as IRE representing a larger group of MUDers than other organizations/games... just because your group is larger, does not mean that you represent over 50% of all MUDers. The majority of MUDs and MUDers are not commercial, and that group of people deserves to be represented for what they are - not howmuch money they do/don't make.

If Syno created this site to maximize howmuch money he could make, that's fine; as I've said before, however, I assumed it was to create a prominent MUDing resource to aid the whole community based on the way the website describes itself. I can easily see why people like Matt and Thresh would see it purely from a money standpoint, but it just kind of makes me ill to see that mindset be so prevailent in a text-based mmorpg community.

As far as calling you arrogant - I really don't care howmany people you can suck into playing IRE games through professional advertising, flashiness, and popular features - I've always judged media based on the qualities I look for in it, and not on its popularity(though popularity is not always a bad thing, I admit freely). I'd like to consider the group I'm starting to be more along the lines of an Independent Film-making company, and less along the lines of a Hollywood Studio. My way allows more innovation and specific purpose. Call me arrogant for thinking that I'm creating something better than an IRE MUD. I suppose we all have our own views of what is good. Mine is challenge/creativite-innovation, some others are popularity/money.

Ultimately, this is neither mine, nor Matt's site. It is Syno's. Whatever he believes will best serve the purpose of his website is what will go. I'm imagining that he is not as far-left liberal in his approach as I am, nor is he so blindingly conservative right as Matt/Thresh are. This, based on his not stepping in to support one side or another. But again, I can only speculate, and be glad that he is listening to my logic, even if some others are unable to get that far.
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:06 PM   #108
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I am a newbie here, but I would like to agree with what seems to me as being the majority, that two mud rankings would be great. One for free muds and one for commercial muds

   However, determining which are free muds would cause an incredible amount of trouble on these forums. Ultimately, it would not be worth the agony. While 99% of us feel that pay-for-perks, pay-to-play, credits, etc are NOT free games, the muds that run this site would disagree with that vehemently.

    I have never posted here before and will admit I am extremely bothered by people like Threshold and others who claim everyone except them is full of ####, hidden motives, etc.
Several new players probably pick their muds from this site, I would think having a listing of free muds is the logical thing to do.  Going through the rankings and seeing these muds claim they are free is just hogwash. There is noway in hell a broke mudder can compete with a rich one who buys credit after credit, anyone who claims so is simply ignorant.

   As for this being a traffic site, I know of several websites who have removed banners or icons for top mud sites in the last half year. Mostly because of stuff like this. I am sure the big guys do not care, since they are mostly smaller sites. But I would think every bit helps. Some muds and websites feel unwanted here, and for good reason.

  I must admit though, I do agree with logos and them, this place is definately not a resource center for muds and information about muds. If anyone wants that, they need to hit TMC.  

But boy do I love reading these forums


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Old 01-03-2006, 01:05 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (lex @ Jan. 02 2006)
I have never posted here before and will admit I am extremely bothered by people like Threshold and others who claim everyone except them is full of ####, hidden motives, etc.
What is my hidden motive then? There isn't one. All of my motives are in the open.

The people with the hidden motives are the ones with their sneaky calls for "2 lists... Why? UM... um... um... because it would be good for the community! Yeah, that's the ticket!" All they really want is their favorite mud to be listed more prominently.

Instead of using their energy to recruit more players for their favorite game, or work harder on it to make it better, or anything of that sort, they'd rather find a way to get unfair, artificial benefit from traffic that SOMEONE ELSE sends to TMS.

Matt put it best in comparing their desires to those who constantly expand the welfare state.
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:54 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Crystal @ Jan. 02 2006,10:10)
I have a random related question.

On a MUD I used to IMM for, I would send out a random gecho daily just reminding people to vote if they hadn't yet.  There was nothing coded into the game, nor was there any benefit/repercussion from doing so.  Would this tie into forced reminders on TMS?

I haven't really read through the rules yet, since I haven't listed my MUD here at all yet.
That's fine Crystal, it's expressly allowed
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:04 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (lex @ Jan. 03 2006,12:06)
Several new players probably pick their muds from this site, I would think having a listing of free muds is the logical thing to do. Going through the rankings and seeing these muds claim they are free is just hogwash. There is noway in hell a broke mudder can compete with a rich one who buys credit after credit, anyone who claims so is simply ignorant.
I would just like to point out, Lusternia has quite a few people that have spent nothing and have far more than many who have spent. Our current highest level player, that has all their skills at max, and more than one artifact has spent nothing but time.

I myself, before joining their team, was a player in college with no money to spent. Yet I still had high level characters, many with almost all my skills at max, and all had more than one artifact. I spent no money doing this, just time and using the in game economy.

It is 100% possible in, a well designed, pay-for-perks systems to get everything without spending money. It just takes time and/or a knowledge of how to use the economics systems.
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:31 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hajamin @ Jan. 03 2006,08<!--emo&:0)
I would just like to point out, Lusternia has quite a few people that have spent nothing and have far more than many who have spent.  Our current highest level player, that has all their skills at max, and more than one artifact has spent nothing but time.

I myself, before joining their team, was a player in college with no money to spent.  Yet I still had high level characters, many with almost all my skills at max, and all had more than one artifact.  I spent no money doing this, just time and using the in game economy.

It is 100% possible in, a well designed, pay-for-perks systems to get everything without spending money.  It just takes time and/or a knowledge of how to use the economics systems.
And it's a remarkably specious argument, because any of the people you're discussing could have thrown RL money at the game and blown away their zero-money effort.  

I could walk to California from New York, but good thing "I have the option" to buy a plane ticket, or a car, etc.  The existence of a guy who walked to California doesn't mean the guy with the private jet doesn't have a ridiculous advantage as far as getting places.

If the money didn't Viagra-fy (*) the character, no one would spend it.

(*): TM, someone else.  Statistically, socially, and/or in other aspects.  I recognize that not everyone values rewards equally, and that rewards need not have quantitative impact (skill bonuses, etc.) to be coveted.
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:02 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
What is my hidden motive then? There isn't one. All of my motives are in the open.

The people with the hidden motives are the ones with their sneaky calls for "2 lists... Why? UM... um... um... because it would be good for the community! Yeah, that's the ticket!" All they really want is their favorite mud to be listed more prominently.
I am just pointing out that it would seem that Thresh did not understand that in their post, Lex was saying that he was accusing other players who are thinking about the community as a whole of having hidden motives. Just so Thresh isn't so confused anymore, he missed her point and then accused her of the very thing that she said he would.

And I will again point out that the current MUD project I am working on is commercial - and I still believe that there should be two lists. Not everyone is in the community only to act as a wolf to protect our own MUDs well-being; I.E., some of us really are just approaching the problem from a logical perspective, with no hidden motives and only our own sensibilities/opnions.

It's a common psychological concept that those that see "wolves"(could be anything in reality; cuckolders, cheaters, thieves, etc) in others who are innocent, are infact wolves themselves and are projecting that onto others. Thank you for showing us once again that your thought pattern is so self-involved, that you would accuse smaller MUDs really only wanting two lists so that their own MUDs could get on the main-page, when you just don't want to share the spotlight with any MUDs who are meant to be money-making machines.
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:13 PM   #114
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2-->
Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 03 2006,13[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]2)]I.E., some of us really are just approaching the problem from a logical perspective, with no hidden motives and only our own sensibilities/opnions.
Logical perspective: You get more when you contribute more. That's mine.

Illogical perspective: You get more when you contribute less. That's yours.

Well, continue arguing all you want for a list change that is harmful to the site owner (splitting the list would alienate the people (like me) whose muds contribute the most to the site and thus cost him advertising dollars due to lost traffic), would result in less outgoing traffic to all MUDs, and simply makes no sense.

I know Synozeer is too savvy to hamstring his own site that way.

--matt
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:24 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 02 2006,18:40)
Call me arrogant for thinking that I'm creating something better than an IRE MUD. I suppose we all have our own views of what is good. Mine is challenge/creativite-innovation, some others are popularity/money.
Chuckle. I love the false dichotomy.

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Old 01-03-2006, 12:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 02 2006,18:40)
Again, I'll say it - if you are in the MUDing community to make money and approach it from a purely capitalistic goal, then you're better off working for EverQuest... where *real* money is made. Most MUDers and MUD Admins are in it for the love of the genre and community.
Funny that you spend your time on a commercial MUD site slamming commercialism, all the while contributing impressions to the site that are then sold to advertisers.

As for the MUD community: The biggest MUDs are commercial. The longest-lived MUDs are commercial. The biggest MUDing organizations are commercial. Topmudsites (the site you're on, right now! is commercial. Mudconnector is commercial. Mudmagic is commrcial. Zmud, the most popular MUD client, is commercial. The biggest MUD hosting companies are commercial (Wolfpaw, etc).

Commercial organizations are what hold this "MUD community" you're speaking of together. I don't think you'd find much "mud community" without TMS and TMC, for instance. The fact that there are a lot of hobbyists in the community is fantastic. I'm all for it. Why you can't be equally supportive of the commercial end of the MUD community, I don't know, especially given that you use commercial stuff like TMS.

--matt
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:33 PM   #117
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Being commercial is not a negative thing to me, especially since being commercial can serve many different ends and is not always based around sacrificing standards just to maximize profit.

Being self-serving, not caring about the community as a whole, and being so commercial that you use your popularity gained from lack-of-ethics as an excuse to put your MUD on a pedestal above other MUDs is a negative thing to me.

I also don't agree, or like, the concept of in-game credits that unevens the field for players depending howmuch money they are willing to spend.

But that's for another time. These are all, again, my opinions only.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:13 PM   #118
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Threshold @ Posted: Jan. 03 2006,02,05
Quote:
Originally Posted by
What is my hidden motive then? There isn't one. All of my motives are in the open.

The people with the hidden motives are the ones with their sneaky calls for "2 lists... Why? UM... um... um... because it would be good for the community! Yeah, that's the ticket!" All they really want is their favorite mud to be listed more prominently.
‘Hidden motives’…  well...

The main divider between commercial and free muds is whether or not you make any money from your Mud. (And let's keep the question of whether or not you make any profit from it out of this discussion, because 'profit' can be manipulated in too many ways. So let's keep it simple; if you do or do not make any money from it).

If you do, you can use that money to pay for banners or other types of ads, to market your mud and get more players, which in turn will generate more money... Free muds don't have that option, which puts them at a great disadvantage from the start.

But... Then you have the commercial muds that choose to advertise themselves as free, although they clearly are commercial. Apparently you don’t do that, Threshold. Neither do some large, old time commercial muds like Gemstone and DragonRealms. And I commend you for it. But some commercial Muds do.

And that is where the real hidden motives come into play. Because why do they do it?
Clearly to get new player hooked to their mud, before they realise that they actually have to pay, if they want a real chance to compete with the players that do.

We all know how it works. Players get incredibly attached to the mud they play, once they have vested some time and effort into developing their char, and made some friends within the mud. Even if the Mud is a crappy stock Diku, even if the imps are immature jerks who cheat and/or abuse their players. Or even if the game turns out to be a disguised pay-for–perks mud, most players stick to the mud, after they passed the first newbie stage, unless they get a really strong incentive to leave. So they stay. And sooner or later most of them pay. (And the very few that still don’t can be used in the advertising, to show how you don’t have to pay. As Valg so aptly put it; You always have the option to walk from New York to California, instead of taking the jet flight).

To sum this up, maybe having parallel lists might be taking things a bit too far, I’ll grant you that. But having a way to separate the really free muds from the commercial ones is a very legitimate wish from both mud owners and mere mud players like me. And it is nothing new. It’s a long time request from all owners of free muds. If there were a filter to separate free muds from commercial, just as there is a filter to separate PK from non PK, or RPI from nom RP, I think most members of the mud community would settle for that and be content. But as long as the option does not exist, this discussion will keep popping up from time to time, because the free muds feel that they don’t get a fair treatment.

It would be quite simple to set the separation criteria, so that isn’t really the problem:. If you can get ANY in game benefits from paying real life money, (whether they be ‘pay-for-perks’, ‘donation equipment’ or just the plain ‘pay-to-play’); then the mud is commercial. If not, it is free.

The only reason why a listing option like this doesn’t already exist is that certain commercial muds have always vehemently opposed any suggestions in that direction. And why do they do that?

That is where the real ‘hidden motives’  come into play.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:18 PM   #119
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But... Then you have the commercial muds that choose to advertise themselves as free, although they clearly are commercial. Apparently you don’t do that, Threshold. Neither do some large, old time commercial muds like Gemstone and DragonRealms. And I commend you for it. But some commercial Muds do.

And that is where the real hidden motives come into play. Because why do they do it?
Clearly to get new player hooked to their mud, before they realise that they actually have to pay, if they want a real chance to compete with the players that do.
Where is this great mass of incredibly moronic players who enter a commercial game and don't discover until they are hooked that some guy in a black trenchcoat is going to show up at their door to break their legs if they don't pay up?  I've never understood why people who make this argument about whether or not a commercial game can be free always seem to assume that they somehow have some insight into the "real" costs of such a game that any other Average Joe will just not be able to work out for himself before deciding to try out a particular game.

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Originally Posted by
We all know how it works. Players get incredibly attached to the mud they play, once they have vested some time and effort into developing their char, and made some friends within the mud. Even if the Mud is a crappy stock Diku, even if the imps are immature jerks who cheat and/or abuse their players. Or even if the game turns out to be a disguised pay-for–perks mud, most players stick to the mud, after they passed the first newbie stage, unless they get a really strong incentive to leave. So they stay. And sooner or later most of them pay.
Huh?  If paying is an issue, then by definition it would be a strong incentive to leave.  Not that it really matters; you'd have to have the IQ of a cabbage to start playing any of the top listed commercial games here and not acquire some basic understanding of their business model well before deciding whether or not to stick with the game in question.

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That is where the real ‘hidden motives’  come into play.
Oh, wait, I know this one!  They want commercial muds listed with hobbyist muds so that they can force people to smoke crack!
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:28 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by (Atyreus @ Jan. 03 2006,21:18)
Huh?  If paying is an issue, then by definition it would be a strong incentive to leave.  Not that it really matters; you'd have to have the IQ of a cabbage to start playing any of the top listed commercial games here and not acquire some basic understanding of their business model well before deciding whether or not to stick with the game in question.
Except that some MUDs deceptively advertise themselves as "free". People have asked them to describe their business model accurately for a while, and there has always been strong resistance. It's obvious why.
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