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Old 04-11-2006, 12:14 PM   #101
Hadoryu
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Then I'd be at a disadvantage. What I'd probably do is move some junk into my offense hand until I had enough to build up a reasonable defence, then clear the offense hand with a weak jihad (particularly if someone had attacked me, as it'd force them to shift back to rebuilding their defence) and start building up a proper offense. If I was still struggling after three or four turns I'd burn a resource I didn't need to bluff an attack, hopefully giving the impression that I was in fighting shape and encouraging my opponent/s to waste resources pumping up their defences.

Of course that wouldn't help one-on-one against a player who goes pure offense...but if you think they're going to do that, and you have a bad hand, you could call their bluff and go for a pure offense as well. You'd both die, resulting in a draw.
Well, that does sound rather interesting and I guess I'm going to withold comment unless I get to see it in action. If it's possible to put up a good fight, even with luck against you, then the system doesn't suffer too much.

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It's not really a case of chance punishing tactical decisions, but rather the tactical decisions having to take into account (and make the most of) the resources that chance has given you.
Well, to put it another way, it doesn't reward you either. It discourages elaborate tactics, since the chance of them succeeding will drop after every segment.
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:44 PM   #102
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Of all the Muds I have tried,IRE's combat system is by far the best.I do however think the system is not going far enough as far as players liberty of movement
I would like to see liberty of movement.For example,after slashing at a hellcat or anything for that matter,I would like to be able to move up and/or sideways as to add to the distance the OPPFOR needs to go thru to reach me.That may actually require the addition of movement points or something.
Those movement/stamina points would diminish depending on how far the player moves between attacks and defenses.
I also would like to see a defense command.By this I mean that instead of attacking at every turn,one could attack once,then defend and see what spot the Oppfor opens up for the 2nd attack.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:31 PM   #103
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It would be a lot easier to implement movement if IRE's combat supported a co-ordinate based map-system, like Godwars II or RER.

Ever tried either of those, lchief?
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Old 04-12-2006, 08:03 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ April 12 2006,14:31)
It would be a lot easier to implement movement if IRE's combat supported a co-ordinate based map-system, like Godwars II or RER.
Our games do support coordinate based map systems, of course.

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Old 04-12-2006, 09:05 PM   #105
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It's not the same sort of system, and as such, does not allow for "movement points" - i.e. oldschool TSR computer game-like game mechanics that allowed for an attack followed by a movement(depending on the circumstances).


There are a few different ways you could implement what you are asking for without using "movement points" which makes combat take a more turn-based route(I prefer real-time combat);


In one of the games I'm working on currently (that's in open-to-public Alpha testing), the system is map/co-ordinate based, using a mixture of ranged(guns) and melee weapons. The gun-weaponry ranges from pistols (needing a straight, unobstructed shot) to shotguns/etc (spread-buckshot rounds, which can target a specific [zombie, typically, in this MUD's case], and also have a lessened affect on adjacent/nearby enemies), and various demolition-based weapons ranging from rocket-launchers to timed bombs, traps, and grenades (all which have an area of effect).

In an effort to reduce the amount of melee vs ranged weapon imbalance we are experiencing(to an extent, naturally there are obvious advantages to using a pistol against someone coming at you with a lead pipe), we've been designing commands that utilize the map more. Examples of what we are looking at are skills like "slash-and-roll", or "defensive-jab"/etc, that would allow the player to strike with melee and then change their co-ordinate location in one swift manuever, so as to avoid(or confuse, in some cases) the other opponent's return fire/melee.
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:28 PM   #106
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DonathinFrye wrote:
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It's not the same sort of system, and as such, does not allow for "movement points" - i.e. oldschool TSR computer game-like game mechanics that allowed for an attack followed by a movement(depending on the circumstances).
Our system has movement points, albeit largely hidden from the user.

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Old 04-13-2006, 04:10 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 13 2006,02:03)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ April 12 2006,14:31)
It would be a lot easier to implement movement if IRE's combat supported a co-ordinate based map-system, like Godwars II or RER.
Our games do support coordinate based map systems, of course.
I believe he's referring to true coordinate-based (as an opposed to room-based).
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:06 PM   #108
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Quote (the_logos @ April 13 2006,023)
Quote (DonathinFrye @ April 12 2006,14:31)
It would be a lot easier to implement movement if IRE's combat supported a co-ordinate based map-system, like Godwars II or RER.


Our games do support coordinate based map systems, of course.

I believe he's referring to true coordinate-based (as an opposed to room-based).

Yeah, I was.
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Old 04-20-2006, 03:28 PM   #109
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The two best combat systems I have ever seen are in the Legends of Terris and the (now gone) game Drag(*)nBallZ (fe).

Terris has a skill system that is very unique, and one of it's features that it is awesome and known for is it's combat skill trees. There are about 5 or 6 skills that will aid you in combat (not including the four different fighting styles) Then you have three choices durring combat: Attack, Aim, and Charge. Attack is generic, Aim requires the skill "Called Shot" which will increase the damage at an accuracy loss (that is almost unnoticable), and Charge is for mounted fighters (naturaly). The other nice thing is that unless you are using a missile weapon, you have to advance the opponent (or charge on a mount) or they can advance you to start combat. Everything is based off of a D&D Dice system that you can view the weapons and spell statistics that are working for/against you in this.

Drag(*)nBallZ (fe) was the most advanced combat system because you could block (if you timed it right) attacks that were coming in at you, the attacks were very simple, punches and kicks along with a few energy attacks, but all could be blocked and all could be countered.

While the DragonBall game is down, Terris is still up and running strong (10 years strong). It was on AOL for more than 5 years before breaking off and going for a solo career on the web. It does cost to play though (but the first 15 plays are free). I suggest it if you want to try to check out a great system (And I only covered the combat, wait till you see the quests, monsters, areas, secrets, guilds, temples, houses, and a whole lot more).
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:57 PM   #110
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Drag(*)nBallZ (fe) was the most advanced combat system because you could block (if you timed it right) attacks that were coming in at you, the attacks were very simple, punches and kicks along with a few energy attacks, but all could be blocked and all could be countered.

Utopia: Type Final (original Godwars-variety) codebase that Vormav and I had a very advanced block, countering system - but it wasn't simple at all. It was definitely the most complex combat system I've ever had the pleasure of playing, but unfortunately the complexity of it and its lack of newbie-friendly gameplay makes it difficult to get a large playerbase(we never really exceeded an average of more than the 10-20 range).

However, if you are interested in some extremely advanced solo vs solo PvP, check out the Utopia codebase.


KaVir's Godwars II also has a very skill/timing oriented counter-attack and block system worth checking out; and the customization and features of his MUD make it worth playing for reasons beyond just PvP Combat, unlike Utopia which is only interesting for PvP Combat(there is no leveling up... at all).
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:58 AM   #111
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For Ilyrias we are using the balance system IRE uses(which as far as I know originated with Avalon, please correct me if I'm wrong), but with some changes.

One of the key ones, which I think will add some more flexibility to it, is partial balance. Lets say an attack takes 4 seconds of balance, three of that would be "hard" balance. The last second would be partial balance, in which you could attempt to move(with a chance of tripping), or even as far as attacking again(normally with an increased chance to miss, and longer than normal balance time). Some more advanced fighting would allow you to actually get better accuracy and damage if you use the "right" attack in that last second.

If any of you have studied any type of fighting or martial arts, you know that normally if you attack at someones head that leaves an opening to their legs(or chest if they over extend their block). Using that concept, if you follow up with an attack to the legs or chest, you could have an increased chance to hit(because their chance to block is lower) and possibly do more damage. Of course a good fighter would soon learn that you are following up your attacks to hit their weak points, and they could preemptively chance their guard/parry to that area. Then they would have a higher chance to block, and you will be stuck with a longer than normal balance loss... which could cost you in a fight.

We haven't yet settled on how the combat system will work, but that's one of the changes to the standard balance system we are looking at using.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:12 AM   #112
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One of the key ones, which I think will add some more flexibility to it, is partial balance. Lets say an attack takes 4 seconds of balance, three of that would be "hard" balance. The last second would be partial balance, in which you could attempt to move(with a chance of tripping), or even as far as attacking again(normally with an increased chance to miss, and longer than normal balance time).
Have you considered the idea of location-based balance? For example, supposing 'left hand', 'right hand' and 'feet' each had their own balance timers. A 'lunge' attack would probably set all three, as it requires footwork as well as positioning for each hand - but a 'duck' shouldn't prevent you from using your hands, nor should a 'shield block' with your left hand prevent you from stabbing with the shortsword in your right.

This would also allow you to handle paired weapons in rather interesting ways - for example you could have 'feint' and 'thrust' as attacks which require you to have at least one hand balanced, allowing a player to feint with one sword then quickly thrust with the other. Additionally you might have a 'whirlwind attack' which uses two weapons simultaneously, requiring both hands to be balanced.

The system could also be expanded to include additional locations for creatures which had multiple limbs, prehensile tails, wings, etc (a seven-headed hydra could prove particularly nasty with this approach). A mage could summon the 'Tentacle of the Abyss' which would be treated as its own location, allowing the mage to continue casting other spells while controlling the tenacle - or they might cast 'animate blade' on a sword, and use it to attack someone while they perform other activities. Particularly powerful summons might use a 'mind' location, so that the mage could only concentrate on one at any one time.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:42 AM   #113
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What i dislike is systems that allow a "script" to make your playing faster and better in combat.

Non-trigger/non-script custom clients ftw.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:53 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 21 2006,19:12)
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One of the key ones, which I think will add some more flexibility to it, is partial balance.  Lets say an attack takes 4 seconds of balance, three of that would be "hard" balance.  The last second would be partial balance, in which you could attempt to move(with a chance of tripping), or even as far as attacking again(normally with an increased chance to miss, and longer than normal balance time).
Have you considered the idea of location-based balance?  For example, supposing 'left hand', 'right hand' and 'feet' each had their own balance timers.  A 'lunge' attack would probably set all three, as it requires footwork as well as positioning for each hand - but a 'duck' shouldn't prevent you from using your hands, nor should a 'shield block' with your left hand prevent you from stabbing with the shortsword in your right.

This would also allow you to handle paired weapons in rather interesting ways - for example you could have 'feint' and 'thrust' as attacks which require you to have at least one hand balanced, allowing a player to feint with one sword then quickly thrust with the other.  Additionally you might have a 'whirlwind attack' which uses two weapons simultaneously, requiring both hands to be balanced.

The system could also be expanded to include additional locations for creatures which had multiple limbs, prehensile tails, wings, etc (a seven-headed hydra could prove particularly nasty with this approach).  A mage could summon the 'Tentacle of the Abyss' which would be treated as its own location, allowing the mage to continue casting other spells while controlling the tenacle - or they might cast 'animate blade' on a sword, and use it to attack someone while they perform other activities.  Particularly powerful summons might use a 'mind' location, so that the mage could only concentrate on one at any one time.
Actually yes, that is part of it. Each arm will have their own balance as will legs. But being off any part of balance still stops movement(otherwise everyone would just hit-and-run). As you mentioned, it allows for each weapon wielding arm to do more, and perhaps someone trained in martial arts and swords could add in a kick as well.

We have also designed things so our mobs can take body part damage(each one of their attacks require certain body parts), can take most afflictions, etc. This will make mobs more like players and not punching bags. Those sentient mobs will also be able to "learn" and "judge" what is the best attack(or defense) to use against you.
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by (Baram @ April 21 2006,01:58)
For Ilyrias we are using the balance system IRE uses(which as far as I know originated with Avalon, please correct me if I'm wrong), but with some changes.
I am curious to know if you are concerned about reducing the level of clientside scripting and automation in your game as compared to the IRE system. If you are, then what features will you be introducing specifically to make scripting less effective?
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:18 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cron0s @ April 21 2006,20:20)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Baram @ April 21 2006,01:58)
For Ilyrias we are using the balance system IRE uses(which as far as I know originated with Avalon, please correct me if I'm wrong), but with some changes.
I am curious to know if you are concerned about reducing the level of clientside scripting and automation in your game as compared to the IRE system. If you are, then what features will you be introducing specifically to make scripting less effective?
Honestly, with that style system we can't think of any way to really reduce the effect of them. So we will(later) create a java client that can handle scripting just as well as most clients, and one of our perspective players has offered to donate his time to us. He will create both a cMud and zMud script, that covers the basics(not a perfect system though) such as healing that will be available for free download to anyone. Hopefully other players that are skilled with other clients will also donate a similar script system.

Doing it that way, everyone that wants to use scripts can get a basic set for free, and modify it(or have someone else modify it) as they wish.

Not a perfect solution, but one that we think will help balance things out a little more.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by (Baram @ April 21 2006,15:18)
Honestly, with that style system we can't think of any way to really reduce the effect of them. So we will(later) create a java client that can handle scripting just as well as most clients, and one of our perspective players has offered to donate his time to us. He will create both a cMud and zMud script, that covers the basics(not a perfect system though) such as healing that will be available for free download to anyone.
Why not offer these options in game then, instead of client-side?

Something like:

>set autoheal 100

Ok. You will now automatically heal if your hp drop below 100.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:24 AM   #118
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I think that in most real-life melee confrontations, death doesn't result from a steady compilation of "damage" to one's health, but rather a singe well-struck killing blow. A pair of combatants may spar for a long period of time and nick one another, wearing each other down, but when it comes to actually deciding a victor, the guy who wins is gonna be the guy who sees an opening and stabs his opponent through the heart. And I hate combat systems where you stand around bludgeoning MOBs until you beat the hit points out of them. It's kind of monotonous.

So, we're designing our system around critical hits. Any successful hit can mean death. The trick is using your combat tools and the maneuvers you learn to keep from getting hit, or at least reducing the severity of the strike.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:15 AM   #119
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So, we're designing our system around critical hits. Any successful hit can mean death. The trick is using your combat tools and the maneuvers you learn to keep from getting hit, or at least reducing the severity of the strike.

Interesting possibility. Don't allow too much luck, random-moves, or statistics to affect combat, though. If so, you will have a lot of short, unfulfilling fights.
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:26 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by (Hephos @ April 21 2006,06:42)
What i dislike is systems that allow a "script" to make your playing faster and better in combat.

Non-trigger/non-script custom clients ftw.
Keep in mind that you'll never be able to force players to use your client. It can always be reverse engineered to work with your protocol and if your game is popular enough and if triggers/scripts would provide enough of an advantage, it will be.

--matt
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