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Old 05-21-2002, 07:18 AM   #1
Gingersnap
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Thumbs down

I don't know where to put this, but I went to try out Feudal Realms and one of the first NPC's I came across looked like this.

A small skinny dark skinned man with a towel wrapped about his head talk to you in giberish. The smell of him is like burnt cabbage.
An immigrant is in excellent condition.

When I looked around it said this - A dark skinned immigrant speaks in a language you do not understand.

What is this about? I really am looking for a game where I can escape reality and not be faced with bigotry.

Ginger
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Old 05-21-2002, 07:24 AM   #2
makila
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On some muds you can speak different languages.
Common language, thief language, centaur language and so on...
You need to pract those languages before you can speak them.
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:09 AM   #3
Molly
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Makila, I think you missed the point here.
The complaint was not that he didn't understand a language, it was the racial slurs in the description of that mobile.
That's what bigotry means.

And it's the kind of thing thing that would turn ME off a mud too.
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:12 AM   #4
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While this could indeed be a class example of such "bigotry", sometimes it's necessary to take a step back. You've just entered a fantasy world, populated by dragons, centaurs and elves. Did you consider for a moment the theme of the game? Perhaps there is a valid excuse for immigrants. Maybe some of the cabbage-eating desert-dwelling nomads have been driven from their lands by a foul beast or somesuch.

And, even if it was an example of such bigotry, should we also rant and rage every time someone puts in a "fat merchant", "school bully", or other NPC that might be considered stereotyping? If the answer to that last question is "no", consider why, and get back to me.

Kas.
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Old 05-21-2002, 10:35 AM   #5
Jazuela
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If the game referenced all "fat merchants" with real life stereotypical traits, then yeah I'd have a problem with it. I think the issue isn't that it's a fantasy game. Bigotry in fantasy is perfectly acceptable. As long as the bigotry stems FROM the fantasy, and isn't a real stereotype brought from real life into the fantasy.

Just like, if a game has humans as a race, and black humans are considered inferior or treated as slaves.. I'd expect people to take issue with that.

But if it was a "dark elf" then no, fantasy is fantasy, because dark elves don't exist in real life (contrary to popular belief).

R
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Old 05-21-2002, 11:26 AM   #6
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Okay, what exactly is derogatory about a immigrant with a towel wrapped around his head that smells like burnt cabbage?
Is there somewhere in the mud where it says that all immigrants are like this?  A stereotype only exists were a broad group of people are labeled.

How would a person describe me in a mud?:
 
A chubby, pale-skinned fellow wearing glasses and a three day growth of beard.
A mudder stands here.
(OH MY GOD, THEY ARE STEROTYPING LAZY WHITE MALE MUDDERS! CHARGE!!!!

Please, take Kas's advice and step back and think about it for a moment before you take offense.  Perhaps the staff of Feudal Realms mud does intend to spread hatred and bigotry, i don't know, i've never played there.  But don't jump to such an outrageous conclusion because of the description of one NPC.  

Lets keep the rabid PC that pervades the rest of our country out of muds please!
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:01 PM   #7
Gingersnap
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Cainers - the game is called Feudal Realms not Threshold Mud.

I think that there are plenty of fantasy descriptions that could be used to describe an immigrant for a mud world that does not use the current slight against Arabs and some East Indian peoples.

I don't have to take a step back and give them the benefit of the doubt. Life is way too short for me to play in a game where I am offended at first look. I've played plenty of muds where this kind of thing is frowned upon and I don't have to accept it. It is rude and I'm sure they don't care, but I will not be playing there.


Ginger
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:27 PM   #8
Yui Unifex
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Gingersnap @ blah)
It is rude and I'm sure they don't care, but I will not be playing there.
I'm sure I must have missed this, but how is it rude?  How does such a description demonstrate intolerance for another person's beliefs?
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:32 PM   #9
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Cainers, please make an effort to reference the right MUD when posting. You can always go back and edit your post.

The issue here does not seem to me that Feudal Realms is stereotyping a class of people within their MUD. That is totally acceptable (as has already been pointed out). The problem arises when references are made to RL ethnic or racial slurs. Calling someone a "towel-head" is rarely used in a positive manner. The MOB description could easily be written in a way which would not change the appearance of the MOB, but would not incorporate what is considered by many to be an ethnic slur. A thinly veiled way of calling a MOB a "towel-head" is no different than saying a MOB "has a large nose and is haggling over the price of a bagel" or "this dark skinned man is enjoying some fried chicken and watermelon outside of his run down home". References to RL racial and ethnic stereotypes should not be tolerated in a MUD. This is entirely different than having IC racism or IC stereotypes.
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Old 05-21-2002, 03:54 PM   #10
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First off, I apologize for inadvertantly involving the wrong mud, i edited the post as soon as i became aware of my typo.

Now back to the topic. Your making assumptions.

First, you assume that the immigrate described is of arabic or indian descent.
Secondly, you assume that someone on Feudal Realms has an agenda against immigrants.

Did you ask anyone about the mob? Did you give anyone on Feudal Realms a chance to explain their position? Nope, you come onto TopMudsites and begin baiting. If it offends you, well, thats why you have the quit command. All i would expect from any individual is a little restraint before you attempt to tarnish a mud's reputation.

I would not have a NPC like this on my mud, i have rejected zones about the holocaust, a playboy mansion, and god knows how many other tacky zones. However, that doesn't give me the right to dictate what someone else should have on their muds.

Regardless,
Does anyone know FR's position? Or explanation? Or does anyone care?
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:17 PM   #11
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I'm the admin/owner of Feudal Realms, and while I like to think that I know what's going on all the time 100% on my mud, I do not.  The mob in question isn't a new one (which isn't an excuse) and has been in play for about 6 years now, it's in our main hometown.  It was not built to poke fun at anyone, nor was the intent to belay a racial slur or stereotype against anyone.  No one had ever complained directly to me about this mob, and until readin this thread on here today, I had no clue that anyone had taken offense to the mob in question. We do have this lovely thing called a note system, which I do read, and an entire staff of Ancients who relay messages to me, and if someone has a problem, or finds something offensive, talking to me directly is usually the quickest method of getting something remedied, not posting to TMS (but I can assure you that I will defend myself, my mud, and my staff on these forums.

Please do not assume that by the mere presence that Feudal Realms supports bigotry in any sense, or racial jokes/stereotypes.  I will happily revise the mob so that no one is possibly offended by it.

On this same track, I guess I should go revise anything that is a woman chained down, any sort of slave (such as a goblin) or anyone treated inhumanely (or inelfly, inogrishly, or introlly) because I would hate to offend anyone else with something that is in a fantasy world.  (yes I'm being sarcastic).

As a side, the builder in question who did that mob is no longer part of Feudal Realms (yes I know who did it, even if 6 years ago).
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:28 PM   #12
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As the head builder of FR, I must admit that I was disappointed to have that mob brought to my attention. While it was made long before my tenure on the game began, it is something which a player could take the wrong way in an OOC sense.

However, do keep in mind that FR is a game that has a great deal of racial variation and conflict. Elves dislike humans, humans dislike minotaurs, dwarves and halflings dislike whoever they feel like warring with for the week, and everyone pretty much hates ogres, trolls, orcs, and goblins - especially goblins. If you read up on the history of the MUD, this becomes rather evident. It in no way derides any player for choosing to play whatever race, but rather it allows for interaction and conflict which drives the history of the mud, rather than a big happy everybody-loves-everybody family. (In an OOC sense, almost all of the players are quite friendly with one another.)

Additionally I would like to point out that at the time gingersnap made the post, there were two visible immortals on the game, both of whom were receiving tells and answering questions. I know this because I was one of them. Yet, no comment was made to either of us, nor were any notes posted, rather, the issue was taken directly to a public forum, something which I find rather disappointing.

On the matter at hand, however, the mob should, and will be changed, as I intend to do so myself. I do appreciate it being brought to our attention, although I must say it could have been handled in a much more appropriate manner.
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:39 PM   #13
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I got to the mob before Salja did, and here is the new description of him just so no one can say I didn't do what I said I was going to do and change him...

A small skinny dark-skinned man is here dressed in clothing you do not immediately recognize. He seems to be speaking to himself in a language you do not understand, and an odor which closest resembles cooked quamba fruit, or possibly losha surrounds him.



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Old 05-21-2002, 05:46 PM   #14
Dulan
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I like the original mob description better.

-D
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:48 PM   #15
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Sorry, but I find your description offensive. Please change it to the following:

A vertically-challenged person lacking usual or desirable bulk is here, or indeed, anywhere else that he or she should wish to be - after all, he or she is a free person and is able to travel anywhere he or she wishes. He or she has dark skin, a genetic attribute which in no way reflects negatively upon him or her in any possible way. While some lesser muds might perform such racist actions as granting "bonus vs sunburn" for those who have dark skin, we at Feudal Realms treat all races equally, and thus the individual is just as sunburned as anyone else who spends a lot of time in the desert might be. The clothing he or she wears is not generally recognisable, nor is the language which he or she speaks - however we, the staff of Feudal Realms, would like to make it clear that we respect ALL forms of clothing and language, and simply because your character doesn't recognise them does not mean that they aren't popular in other parts of the world. He or she is surrounded by a smell which could be considered either good or bad, and which may or may not have anything to do with the individual in question.
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Old 05-21-2002, 11:53 PM   #16
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Mm.. I have to agree that you kind of jumped to conclusions about the mob and made certain assumptions.  It was not intended to offend anyone, but if you are offended by it, I suppose it's perfectly in your right to not want to play.  I am also an imm on Feudal Realms, so perhaps I'm a bit biased, but when one sees their game being shown in a not-so-good light on a public forum, you can expect them to be a little upset.

I also agree that you should have mentioned it to one of the imms on the game (I'm pretty sure I was there vis too) before taking it to Top Mud Sites, as the only people that can really do anything about it are the staff members of FR.  But, as you can see, it was taken care of, and was given a hopefully less-offensive description.  Sorry if it still offends you KaVir. *grin*

Again, in all the time that mob has been there, no one else had mentioned anything about it.  Perhaps it does insinuate certain real-life prejudices, but it is just as possible to have a similar race or ethnicity in a fantasy setting.  I don't find anything wrong with the long description 'A dark skinned immigrant speaks in a language you do not understand.' as that pretty much describes the mob without any hints to real-life stereotypes that could be deemed offensive, unless you are offended by being called an immigrant or dark-skinned, which is.. what that mob is.

Perhaps your biggest problem was with the mob's description, which does sort of "poke fun" at the mob's appearance and mannerisms.  But, I'm certain you could dissect just about any mob's description and find something offensive about it, unless the desc is exactly what KaVir described.  And again, it was changed, so that hopefully no one else has this same problem with it.  But, I do think it would have been better to come to the staff of Feudal Realms first, and explain your disappointment before coming here.  We're pretty understanding, but a thread like this would make anyone defensive about their mud, and only causes a big fuss over a relatively small thing.
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:17 AM   #17
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Well, my comment was based on the fact that Feudal Realms has a medieval fantasy theme, where the concept 'immigrant' would be pretty much unknown (I think that expression has a much later origin). Under the circumstances it did very strongly suggest a bias directed at muslims to me, and apparently to the staff too, since they were gracious enough to change it. (By the way, I agree that it could have been put to the Staff's attention in a better way).

Anyhow, it's a much safer call to stick to race hatred between elves, dwarves and goblins in a fantasy mud. But then again, we probably all have stuff in our muds that may offend sensitive persons. For instance, in my own mud there are some rather flippant comments about the habits of the monks and nuns in two adjacent convents, which probably would offend an ardent catholic. (But then again, celibate too is a much later invention...)
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:23 AM   #18
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Dear Imms of Feudal Realms,

I appreciate your changing the NPC's description. But as to paging Imm's...I didn't stay on the game long enough after reading that description to do so. I felt just that strongly about it.

Appreciate my position and understand if I walk into a deli and the meat smells bad, I don't want to stay very long. And I will tell my friends that the deli meat smells bad and they should go somewhere else for their hoagies, subs or heros. I won't pull aside the owner and tell him. I don't know him and I don't have an investment in his business. If I did know him, that would be different.

I don't know you, I don't know if you are rude imms, imms that don't care, nice people or what. I'm just a regular Jane, going to play a game. I'm not going to page you. To me, that NPC was a reflection of the game and I didn't want to deal with people who thought like that.

That is how I felt at the time.

But I did learn something from all of this. If I do feel strongly about something in a game, I will page or note an Imm before coming here. It is only fair. As Topmudsites seems like a community and Feudal Realms is part of that community, I should make an effort to communicate better in the future as I am newly added to this community.

Thanks again for your work to change the NPC.

Gingersnap
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dionae @ May 21 2002,10:53 pm)
Perhaps your biggest problem was with the mob's description, which does sort of "poke fun" at the mob's appearance and mannerisms.  But, I'm certain you could dissect just about any mob's description and find something offensive about it, unless the desc is exactly what KaVir described.
I would disagree. The only thing offensive about the MOBs description was the "towel-head" reference. Maybe most people have not been exposed to cultures that find this term offensive. It would be the same as using the phrase "spear chucker" or "wet back." If the description had read: "A small skinny dark skinned man with a turban wrapped about his head talk [sic] to you in giberish. The smell of him is like burnt cabbage" I would agree that any offense taken would be overly PC.
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Old 05-22-2002, 03:52 PM   #20
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What is this about? To answer the original poster, its about sloppy imm work. Thankfully the staff at Feudal Realms corrected it before it got out of hand. Heh

Everyone is intitled to their opinion, and im glad to see it was addressed and corrected. PC or not PC, it really doesnt matter. It should be taken into consideration as a valid opinion from an offended player by the staff, not washed away by popular opinion.

MHO

*waves*
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