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Old 10-22-2003, 05:47 AM   #1
the_logos
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http://www.linuxinsider.com/perl/story/31899.html

It's actually about the difference between reasonable people and agenda-laden kids in the linux/open-source community but it applies equally well to the mud community if you switch out "linux" for "free muds" and "Microsoft" for "commercial muds."

The Pros are the people you'd hire or work for, because they're concerned only with getting the job done, not with promoting some religious-style anti-<whatever> agenda. The Priests are somewhat less competent, having serious prejudices but still retaining the ability to think rationally sometimes. The Zealots are the ones who have no connection with reality, lack all ability to think critically, and use every opportunity to attack that which their agenda opposes.

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:42 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by
It's actually about the difference between reasonable people and agenda-laden kids in the linux/open-source community but it applies equally well to the mud community if you switch out "linux" for "free muds" and "Microsoft" for "commercial muds."
I don't think there are many people who believe that muds should always be free, mostly just people who aren't willing to play such muds themselves and/or disagree with certain types of commercialisation (eg Molly, who - if I recall correctly - has no problem with muds charging a fixed fee, but considers it unfair to allow players to advance through money).

And while personally I have no issue with commercial muds, I don't consider it unreasonable for people to say "I consider X to be unfair". I've seen you make far less flattering comments about free muds in the past.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:53 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Oct. 22 2003,05:42)
I've seen you make far less flattering comments about free muds in the past.
Free muds are great. Free muds run by incompetents are, unfortunately, in the great majority, must as muds run by incompetent idiots are in the great majority of muds generally. Just go to mudconnector and search for a random mud.

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:21 AM   #4
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Well,
Until we see some posts from you that takes into account the negatives of commercial muds instead of blindly defending them and posting a multitude of negatives on free muds then I guess that makes you a zealot.

Yours,
Pris
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:24 AM   #5
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Pay MUDs are great. Pay MUDs that make their product as bland as possible to appeal to the broadest cross-section of people are, unfortunately, in the great majority.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that- McDonald's is profitable, and they boast a large number of customers. But you do make decisions differently when you run a MUD in that fashion, and it does show in the final product. And hey, some people like Big Macs.

Just go to mudconnector and search for a random pay MUD.
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Old 10-22-2003, 09:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Oct. 22 2003,06:24)
Pay MUDs are great.  Pay MUDs that make their product as bland as possible to appeal to the broadest cross-section of people are, unfortunately, in the great majority.  

There's nothing inherently wrong with that- McDonald's is profitable, and they boast a large number of customers.  But you do make decisions differently when you run a MUD in that fashion, and it does show in the final product.  And hey, some people like Big Macs.

Just go to mudconnector and search for a random pay MUD.
McFeast rules. Have yet to find a better burger.
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Pris @ Oct. 22 2003,06:21)
Well,
Until we see some posts from you that takes into account the negatives of commercial muds instead of blindly defending them and posting a multitude of negatives on free muds then I guess that makes you a zealot.
Negatives of a commercial environment from a professional developer's point of view:
1. You're forced to pay more attention to what your players want instead of just working on what you want. This is a negative for the developer only of course as it benefits the players.

2. The larger you get the more man-hours have to be devoted to the not-so-fun business of running a business: Dealing with the lawyers, the accountants, the banks, preventing credit card fraud, advertising, press releases, etc. For me personally the amount of time this kind of thing takes is a downer and I now look forward to the rare times I actually get to personally develop a new feature or area rather than just managing other people's development.

Benefits from a developer's point of view:
1. You get to work full-time on your hobby. It is, frankly, a dream job. I have friends at some of the top games companies who are quite jealous of the lifestyle running a commercial mud gives. Compared to the mainstream games industry we have nearly total creative freedom and a near total lack of crunch time. (One friend is working on a high-profile video game and has been in 6.5 days/week crunch mode for a few months now. Sleeping at the office sometimes, etc.)

2. You get taken seriously (if you're successful) by the wider games industry and games press. This is nice if you're looking to move into a more mainstream part of the industry some day. Whether it's fair or not, nobody outside actual text mud players cares about hobbyist muds anymore. The days when journalists wrote obsessively about LambdaMoo are long gone.

3. More resources to work with. It's nice not to have to worry about where the $1000 to host your mud is coming from this month.

I won't go into positive and negatives from a player's point of view. I'm assuming most of you reading this are not commercial developers but you're all players, so you can figure out what you think are the positives or negatives from a player's point of view yourself.

In summary, I have no problem with free muds. There are many quality ones, like Armaggedon and Aardwolf (why do so many popular muds start with an A?). They are, however, absolutely dwarfed by the hundreds upon hundreds of free muds that are little more than straight-up stock stuff run by teenagers on an ego trip. It's simply a function of it being very very easy to start a hobbyist mud. Just download, start it up, and you're running a mud. Commercial muds have a much higher barrier to entry from a developer's perspective, so the average one is far better than the average free mud. Note that I'm not saying the average commercial mud is far better than the average -good- free mud.

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Oct. 22 2003,06:24)
Pay MUDs are great.  Pay MUDs that make their product as bland as possible to appeal to the broadest cross-section of people are, unfortunately, in the great majority.  

There's nothing inherently wrong with that- McDonald's is profitable, and they boast a large number of customers.  But you do make decisions differently when you run a MUD in that fashion, and it does show in the final product.  And hey, some people like Big Macs.

Just go to mudconnector and search for a random pay MUD.
There's no such thing as a mainstream text mud man. The closest any muds come to what you're talking about is Everquest, which is still a niche product in the wider games industry. All of us running commercial text muds are appealing to very very narrow niches of hardcore gameplayers. Comparisons to McDonalds are applicable for EA or SOE maybe, certainly not any text mud company including Simutronics (which dwarfs the rest of us in size and whose games I would not at all consider bland. DR and Gemstone III are quite good.)

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:49 PM   #9
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Cor, can we make them into MUD classes and give them skills

PRO

Secular Vision
Lateral Thought
Sophistry
Shift Blame
Market Forces
Unseen Circumstances – Dodge Deadline
Bureaucracy – Restricting Web
Time Study – Extend Deadline

PRIEST

Critical Vision
Holistic Thought
Reasoned Argument
Accuracy
Unbiased Judgement
Mitigating Circumstances
Ethical Awareness
Detect Lie

ZEALOT

Daydream
Linear Thought
Hot Air
Evangelise
Abusive Dismissal
Disregard Circumstances
Twisted Facts
Ulterior Motive
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:54 PM   #10
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Did you read the article? A Priest suffers from an inability to see his or her own raging prejudices. A Zealot goes one step further and revels in them. A Pro doesn't mean a commercial player. Almost by definition all the top muds commercial or free are run by Pros.

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:38 PM   #11
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Obviously, I didn’t, because -

A) I didn’t find the subject matter compelling enough to warrant a visit to the site, with regard to my personal interest level.

B) I struggled to find the deeper value associated with extending the post any further, beyond detailing a site that may be of marginal interest to some people.

C) I don’t have the time to vigorously authenticate and reference idle quips and humorous remarks

Perhaps I should in future

Three men where standing in a bar.

Their placement at the bar was due to a number of different reasons, man 1 worked in the bar as a glass collector, man 2 was employed by the establishment as a barman, and man 3 was a regular customer – accorded this status because of his frequent patronage of the establishment over a period of one year. They where standing at the bar because the seating area was relatively small and occupied, but not overly occupied in respect to health and safety regulation 2.03 detailing the provision for safe routes in the advent of fires and emergency evacuations.

And so on
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Oct. 22 2003,15<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]In summary, I have no problem with free muds. There are many quality ones, like Armaggedon and Aardwolf (why do so many popular muds start with an A?).
Since most people who browse take the path of least resistance, they are most likely to make a selection from one of the first names on a list (as it's so much of a bother to scroll further down or, god forbid, actually click a next button or turn a page). Thus, people will first choose an item from a list beginning with A simply because it is at the top of the list. Browse through a phone book and see how many companies begin with AAA to get their name at the top of a listing!
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by (Estarra @ Oct. 22 2003,16:59)
[Since most people who browse take the path of least resistance, they are most likely to make a selection from one of the first names on a list (as it's so much of a bother to scroll further down or, god forbid, actually click a next button or turn a page). Thus, people will first choose an item from a list beginning with A simply because it is at the top of the list. Browse through a phone book and see how many companies begin with AAA to get their name at the top of a listing!
Fair enough. Kind of an odd circumstance though isn't it?
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:38 PM   #14
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Question

*giggle* So you say that free muds just do what the developer wants? Free muds need to listen to their players as well. Players have less reason to stick around when they haven't invested cash into the game and are quicker to move on if things don't please them. Trying to create a system that has enough different paths that everyone can find at least something that makes them happy is difficult. PK people need places where they can kill others and engage in player vs player activity. (wars, duels, combat mazes, raiding, clans, defending, special PK rooms, at war status, etc) But people who want to be in peace and not have to worry about some crazy player taking a hatred to them and stalking them around need safe places too. (not joining a PK clan, remaining unclanned, staying out of wars, duels, and other optional killing places) Everything is a balancing game. And free muds have to play it just as much as pay muds do... if not more. If things make you unhappy and you've invested not a penny in it, you're much more likely to leave than if you've invested thousands of dollars into your character. (although in both situations you're likely to have invested extensive amounts of time which will prevent you from picking up an leaving so quickly).
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Old 10-22-2003, 09:20 PM   #15
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giggle* So you say that free muds just do what the developer wants? Free muds need to listen to their players as well.
The good free muds do. But they don't have to in order to continue to exist. There's nothing stopping a hobbyist from running a mud as his or her personal fiefdom and acting like an erratic Roman God. Indeed, growing large can be a problem for free muds due to bandwidth costs. I know Aardwolf had to start accepting money a few months out of the year in order to pay for those bandwidth costs, for instance.

I think when some people here hear "free mud" they think "He must be talking about my mud specifically rather than a general pattern among most free muds." I try to add the "I'm talking about free muds in general, which include about 1000 that you've never heard of because they have about 2 players and are done very poorly."

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here are always lots of sides to things. Sometimes the_logos, you push the benefits of pay muds as though your livelyhood depended on it... oh wait! *giggle* It does. I much perfer pushing a mud where I am a mere player and recieve no benefit but happiness for pushing it.
The benefits of pay muds to the developers are obvious and worth promoting particularly as commercial games are the only ones capable of attracting any kind of attention from media or the wider games market. That's just the way it is, right or wrong. I have both a personal and a financial interest in seeing that people are exposed to text muds who otherwise wouldn't be. We can all market to new potential mud players virally through our playerbases but free muds aren't really in a position to reach out directly to a wider market.

I don't care why you're pushing Aardwolf, as you obviously love it, but perhaps the benefit to you is simply that you get pleasure from being loudly pro-Aardwolf. *shrug*

--matt
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:41 PM   #16
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Ugh... little invested in a mud?

So maybe I have spent $700 or so on Achaea over the period of 4 years or so.

However, today I was proud to pass 100 days of logged in time. Considering that.. Time is money, and I get paid $35/hour at least on any job I work on...

Thats $840,000 I have spent in my time on that game.

I consider time to be an investment, and most players do too.

I personally love pay muds, they raise the bar on what is possible. Having resources helps.
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Old 10-23-2003, 02:45 AM   #17
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I think when some people here hear "free mud" they think "He must be talking about my mud specifically rather than a general pattern among most free muds." I try to add the "I'm talking about free muds in general, which include about 1000 that you've never heard of because they have about 2 players and are done very poorly."
I think the big issue for people is that the creators of those sorts of muds aren't the ones who come here and hold these sorts of conversations with you. The vast majority of people who actually use TopMuds are either people who create/play decent free muds or create/play decent commercial muds. Basing most of your comments and descriptions on the lowest common denominator IS insulting to us. Respect is a predicate here.

Yours,
Pris

P.S the_logos: I do appreciate the post of negative aspects of commercial muds. I apologise for the stab.
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Old 10-23-2003, 03:07 AM   #18
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I think the big issue for people is that the creators of those sorts of muds aren't the ones who come here and hold these sorts of conversations with you. The vast majority of people who actually use TopMuds are either people who create/play decent free muds or create/play decent commercial muds. Basing most of your comments and descriptions on the lowest common denominator IS insulting to us. Respect is a predicate here.
Oh, there's no doubt about it: These forums are a self-selected group of people who have considerably more interest and competence in the field than the average mudder or mud operator. I definitely respect most of the people here. There are only about two Zealots that I can think of but I'm not going to name names. There are, unfortunately, a fair number of Priests.


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P.S the_logos: I do appreciate the post of negative aspects of commercial muds. I apologise for the stab.
Say, thanks! Very rare that anyone apologizes here. There's no doubt there a negative aspects to commercial muds, especially from the developer's point of view. I personally think they're vastly outweighed by the positives (mainly, the ability to make a living doing something you love) but everyone will place their own weight on the various positives and negatives.

--matt
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Old 10-23-2003, 04:49 AM   #19
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There are only about two Zealots that I can think of but I'm not going to name names. There are, unfortunately, a fair number of Priests.
I've seen about the same number of commercial mud advocates as I have free mud advocates. All sides have their proponents, but referring to those who agree with your views as "pros" while referring to those who disagree as "priests" or "fanatics" is hardly conclusive to a constructive debate.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:23 AM   #20
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I still think that Fharron had the best idea, about divvying them up and making slists for them...

In my opinion this thread was started just to see if it would get a rise out of any anti-paymud zealots.  Judging from the responses posted, all of them quite reasonable and non-inflammatory, I'd say no one took the bait.

Finally, despite the suggested alphabetizational benefit alluded to on this thread, we have decided NOT to rename our mud to  'A Crimson March'.
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