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Old 11-11-2003, 05:26 PM   #1
Pleos
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Two reviews were posted regarding TP MUD today. One by "IMP" is a spoof, since no IMP wrote that. I've asked that that be removed since it is clearly a disgruntled player of some kind pretending (poorly I might add) to be an IMP.

As for the second one, I feel I need to respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Do you enjoy having your character you've worked hard at for many hours suddenly have their race changed?
This has occured in the past - and the reason is simple - a person plays a race incorrectly. What does that mean? It means that the vast amount of detail we've put into a race's history, personality, stereotypical concept, etc. is thrown largely out the window.

When it gets to a certain point that the roleplay, say of a high elf or dark elf, is so far from the original concept of the race, the Gods (ICly) change that person's race. Dark elves and high elves are representations of evil and good, their outer shells are a reflection of their souls (which are God-driven). It says so clearly on their help files and when you create these characters.

So, if you like to play well defined races, with history, concepts and stereotypical personalities, that actually enhance roleplay, TP MUD is the place for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Do you enjoy having the immortals telling you that you can't roleplay and should find another mud?
I doubt anyone enjoys this. But the reality is, TP MUD is designed to be an RP intense MUD and not everyone meets those standards. Contrary to the way it sounds here, we do help people, considerably, and have had people start as total newbies (to RP) and become great contributors.

TP MUD isn't for everyone. The person who posted this (educated guess) was told to create a human character (and not play a high elf) because there was more flexibility in the human concept.

Bottomline, TP has a standard of RP set by the tenets, mission statement, rules, guidelines and the Staff. We don't expect everyone can meet it, that's the way it is.

So, if you want a very high standard of RP that the Staff pushes intently, try TP MUD.

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Do you like working on your description and suddenly having some immortal force your character to write the description they want your character to have?
I imagine not. But considering we have roughly 5 or 6 detailed help files with examples and explanations on how to write a proper description, it is clear we take considerable pride in making sure people have well written ones. If you are incapable of writing a proper description, to -meet- those guidelines, then we change it. In fact we work hours with people helping them improve their descriptions. Sometimes it may be faster to rewrite or edit parts - instead of booting people for a lack of writing we actually help them.

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Do you enjoy being told you can't roleplay just because you have bad grammer or spelling?
TP MUD is a text-based game. That's not changing. And, since your mode of communication is text-based it seems imperative to put effort into spelling and grammar. RP isn't solely about these things, but I can assure you that RP comes off appearing better when things are spelled properly and formed into grammatically correct sentences. When you communicate to someone via a text-based game it because difficult to remain in the IC zone and really get into the environment when people are utterly incapable of spelling and writing correctly. That's what a text-based environment is about.

It should be noted that people are rarely actually punished for something like this. We ask people to put effort into typing (capitalizing a sentence and using punctuation is not -that- hard), but we are far from banning people due to a lack of spelling and grammar.

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Do you enjoy constant demands on how your character is supposed to act?
There are only constant demands on those who are RPing poorly. And contrary to what some believe, you can set guidelines to good versus bad roleplay. All we ask of people is that they maintain the concepts and themes of the races we've developed. It can't be said simpler than that.

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Do you like being told that you don't know how to roleplay because you don't follow your concept to the letter and unfailingly?
Concepts are designed to be followed, otherwise why have one? Concepts are also designed to change, and people certainly do that, but not to the point that they go so beyond the boundaries of what one of their race would do that it becomes ridiculous. Characters develop, absolutely - there's no doubt about that. But certain things simply make no sense, and it's those things that we fight against, it's those things the Staff have issues with.

Quote:
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Do you like constantly being told not to talk to anyone that plays the mud out-of-character, because that will just destroy the roleplay in-game?
TP MUD has an OOC tell channel. If people want to talk about OOC things, that's absolutely fine. Heck, I know many RP MUDs don't even have an OOC channel.

In this particular case, the person who wrote this review was playing with an alt (an alt of the char that he feels was so obviously hampered above). This alt sent a tell to an enemy of the character discussed above, where he was about to reveal the characters he plays (I hope that was clear).

I suggested to this person that he not tell this person via OOC the other character he plays, because it's really not worth it. The enemy in question could take that information wrongly (not saying he would) and then go after the alt. Countless IC things could happen from doing this that aren't worth it.

After I suggested to this person that he not reveal his alt via OOC means, he sent the person a tell like this, "Hey you have MSN?"

All I was attempting to do was help this person become a better roleplayer by focusing his attention on IC things and not OOC things. Instead of revealing all the characters he plays (which absolutely weakens the environment for everyone), this person could have been focusing on character development. I explained to this person that he should concentrate on these things, but clearly he was upset and chose to ignore me.

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Well, if this type of control freak mud is for you, then Pleos and Jabberwockee will be happy for you to join them in their own perfect world that will never be anything outside of their perfect vision. You'll absolutely love what Turning Point is becoming.
This person could not adequately RP as a high elf. It's as simple as that. There is enough background material provided within the game, and there is enough help provided by the Staff (I had several conversations myself with this person on how to improve his RP) for people to be able to roleplay the races properly.

TP MUD is about RP. And yes, the world has a certain theme, history and concepts that drive a certain kind of RP. High elves are high elves, not humans with pointy ears.

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I don't see how they stand a chance at actually drawing and keeping new players with the crazy "thou shalt do this and that, but not this or that". When you don't follow their demands, expect to have your character shredded at their enjoyment.
People will come to play TP MUD and succeed here who are willing to RP the way the game was designed. You don't play soccer with a football.

And we don't enjoy punishing characters at all. It saddens me personally that people seem unable or unwilling to follow the guidelines that have been developed. But we must maintain the environment that TP MUD was set out to be, we must maintain the quality of RP that we've built the game upon.

I'm sorry this fellow did not feel that we treated him properly. In fact, more than anything, I'm disappointed because he did show signs of promise. I hope he comes back and tries again, perhaps as a human or another more flexible race that will allow him to develop his RP talents *within* the pre-designed world of TP MUD.

Pleos
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Old 11-11-2003, 05:56 PM   #2
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"You don't play soccer with a football."

Perhaps not the best way of wording that statement.

Everybody I know, where I live, would indeed play soccer with a football. Still it doesn't detract from your points regarding the players review. If there are warnings (and you say they are there) the player has no reason to complain!
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (nikolausv @ Nov. 11 2003,16:56)
"You don't play soccer with a football."

Perhaps not the best way of wording that statement.

Everybody I know, where I live, would indeed play soccer with a football. Still it doesn't detract from your points regarding the players review. If there are warnings (and you say they are there) the player has no reason to complain!
Gack! You're right. I don't know why that was the first analogy that popped into my mind.

Let me try again:

You don't play baseball with a bowling ball.

Pleos
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:57 PM   #4
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I've been eyeing TP for a few weeks now, debating wether or not to stop in. After reading the review, and Pleos' reply, I think I will check it out.

Pleos, I want to give you props. The reviewer resorted to petty insults, but you stayed strong and replied maturely.

This is your world, and if they stray so far from the original concept as to be jarring, I think you and your fellow Imp's are more than justified to take action.

Sharing IC info OOCly is just foolish anyway. I'm a religious Armageddon player, and they have this rule in effect. By sharing info that could have been learned In-Character, you've ruined great oppurtunities for roleplaying, ongoing plotlines and all that good stuff.

Grammar and punctuation are impoirtant in Text based gaming, so I agree with Pleos 100%.

U Kunt rP wyth l337 4ax0rs. It just doesn't work out.

I don't have 2 cents, so that'll have to do.

Word.
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Old 11-11-2003, 07:06 PM   #5
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"Grammar and punctuation are impoirtant"

nice typo
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Old 11-14-2003, 04:06 PM   #6
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I'm not making a veiled attempt at defending the reviewer of your mud with this question, I am just curious.

I understand on a mud, races are generally well defined with a history and stereotypes. However, I was curious if someone were to roleplay consistently and correctly with an in depth character history and logical reasoning of "why", would you allow a sort of "Drizzt-type-char" that goes outside of the normal boundries of what is expected of any given race/class?
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Old 11-14-2003, 05:21 PM   #7
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While I'm not an admin, I have played alot of RP muds.

The thing I love about fantasy is the contrast. You have archetypes, and you have the odd-balls. These make the story believable.

From the review I read, it would seem to me the reviewer refused to do his time as, though I hate to use the word, 'stereotypical' elf. We've all played these characters, the noble knight, the fierce warrior, mysterious/bumbling mage, theiving kender, the woodsy elf, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

If everyone is allowed to be a dark-elf Paladin/summoner who can speak to animals and is the companion of the giant ogre. If every idiot got to play such a character, it would lose its meaning, no?

Anyway, that's just the way I look at it through my clouded perspective. Who knows? I may be full of ****.

*notices all hs typos by doesn't even care.

{EDIT: I forgot to touch on the question of the previous poster. I'm sure that properly Roleplayed and cared for, such a character could come about through the natural storyline, rather than just being that way. If it were like this, there's no doubt that the admin in question would applaud and accept it. I mean, come one, that's just good roleplaying.}
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Old 11-15-2003, 11:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm not making a veiled attempt at defending the reviewer of your mud with this question, I am just curious.

I understand on a mud, races are generally well defined with a history and stereotypes.  However, I was curious if someone were to roleplay consistently and correctly with an in depth character history and logical reasoning of "why", would you allow a sort of "Drizzt-type-char" that goes outside of the normal boundries of what is expected of any given race/class?
That's a valid question. There are two concerns here, one IC and one OOC.

The IC one is this - in TP MUD, the appearance of high elves and dark elves is an outer representation of the Light or Darkness within them, which is there because of the Gods. So in effect, the Gods have made you a high elf or dark elf. And with that comes X, Y and Z expectations.

If you veer from that path, you are technically no longer a high elf or dark elf, because your inside (personality, beliefs, etc.) doesn't match your outside. Thus the Gods change your outside -to- match your inside. So if you're a "waffling high elf" it's likely you'll be turned into a human, since humans within their personalities are given much greater latitude.

So it may be possible for a character to veer down a "non-stereotypical" path, but ICly they will be punished for it, by the Gods. Being turned from a high elf to a human (or dark elf to human) would be an awful, gut wrenching experience. That in and of itself can lead to some excellent RP, if the player is willing to take up that challenge maturely.

Note: Characters should and do also punish characters for veering off the accepted path. For example, TP MUD has Dark Elven Houses (not designed as traditional fantasy ones), and for a dark elf -not- to be in a House is unnaceptable to the dark elven community and they will get you. High elves -do- snub their noses at other high elves who have neutral tendencies or promote non-traditional high elven values. And this is something, on a whole in the game, we are promoting heavily (we don't just want it to be the Gods stepping in).

Most players that do veer from the "stereotypes" do it from the very first day, since it would seem they do not have a full and proper grasp of how the race should be played. These are also the people who do not see the potential opportunities in the IC punishment of a race change.

The OOC concern is this -- if one person is doing it, suddenly everyone else wants to as well. That's a bit of a mentality that I think is natural amongst people. What may have at the outset been considered unique suddenly becomes the norm. What once may have been undertaken by an exceptional RPer is suddenly being done by people who don't yet have the capacity to handle the challenge.

RP is an interesting beast - some would argue that "good RP" means you have to be unique, others would argue the complete opposite; play the role *precisely* how it was defined or else. I think it's fair to say that you can be somewhere in the middle and be successful. To me, uniqueness is something that has to be more subtle, and developed over time due to experiences, not something you come full throttle with at the beginning. If you start out as a "good dark elf", that's not going anywhere. If you end up doubting things as a dark elf down the road, after serious, intense character development, while I don't think you would go "good" per se, there's a possibility for uniqueness. We don't want drones. We want mature RP which to me in one way means understanding and developing the nuances and depth of a character's personality. That's where uniqueness in a sense can shine through.

I hope that answers your question, and once again, thank you for asking it.

Pleos
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Old 11-15-2003, 11:01 PM   #9
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There's often another problem with attempted RP breaking the stereotypes: often, those are the work of novices who don't do it right.

This reminds me of one of the early "unfair!" yells after the launch of Dark Age of Camelot, where one guy complained that one imm had forced him to change the name of his troll character he had named Fluffy.

On a message board, he made up an quite convincing backstory of how "Fluffy" had been brought up as your standard stereotypical bloodthirsty brainless troll, but that at some point an encounter with a dwarven priest had suddenly made him amend his ways and become so much of a peacenick that he would henceforth be called "Fluffy".
The beginning of his char history read like this:

As a young troll, I was called Terrorling by my family. Raised in an atmosphere of anger and hatred, I knew nothing but pure loathing for my foes. I fought and killed, I bathed in the blood of my enemies, and my hatred dominated my entire outlook.

Aside from the initial fault, IMO, that none of the above was actually ever RPed by the character, I believe it had another fatal flaw, one which I can only attribute to lack of experience.

If it was really a troll telling this story, it would probably have sounded like this:
"Me young, me name Grakh. Me hit nasty, hur, hur, and me have great fun then."

Breaking out of stereotypes is all fine and dandy, but only when it's done right.
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Old 11-16-2003, 06:23 AM   #10
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Thanks for answering my question. I was limited on time when I posted, so I didn't have the time to lay the question out properly, but it was still answered.

I agree with most of the things said, I was just wondering if you allowed your playerbase the leeway to take a character in an unthought of direction and break out of the mold if they are willing to put forth the effort, sacrifice, and skill to pull it off convincingly to both the rest of the playerbase and the staff, and adding to the atmosphere of the game. Obviously, you do.

Again, thanks for the well thought out responses.
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Old 11-16-2003, 12:41 PM   #11
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The realm I admin for is not role-playing enforced though we are slowly bringing in more methods to encourage it.

All I really want to add is Pleos, it is a pleasure to read such a detailed answer to a disgruntled player.  Most games have been stung by the typical angry review from an unhappy patron and it is incredibly frustrating. You have answered all concerns I think a player would have about that review eloquently and without rancour.

Kudos to you!

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Old 11-17-2003, 06:44 PM   #12
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Thanks for the kind words Kat.

In reference to this, one thing we had decided to do awhile ago, which we've only just implemented today is Character Applications. This is not completely and solely in response to some of the issues we've experienced with people playing certain races out of whack, but that definitely impacted our efforts.

We've decided to go with Character Applications for certain races, including the elven ones and katta. To create a character with one of these races will require an application that has a description and concept (among other things).

We hope that the application process is a relatively simple and smooth one for veteran and new players alike.

We've decided -not- to make all races require applications because we wanted to strike a balance of some kind between control over the RP environment and the ability for people to get into the game quickly.

Play a human - you can be in the game in 5 minutes (not to say that humans shouldn't be RPd a certain way, but there's more flexibility in their personalities/characteristics). Play an elf - it'll require an application.

And ultimately, if this reduces the number of characters playing poorly outside the scope of their racial concepts, it will also reduce the amount of Imm involvement required, saving our time for other more productive activities.

I don't think there's one "silver bullet" solution to the issues of maintaining a strong RP environment, and in this case, with respect to racial RP. Hopefully character applications prove to help in our ongoing efforts.

Thanks.

Pleos
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Old 11-18-2003, 02:34 PM   #13
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Are you keeping any numbers on "before and after" distributions of who is playing what, Pleos? I'd be curious to quantify if an application system is a significant turnoff to players. It has obvious benefits (forces people to think a little in advance, weeds out problem cases, etc.), but the inconvenience could drive people off.
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Old 11-18-2003, 04:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Nov. 18 2003,13:34)
Are you keeping any numbers on "before and after" distributions of who is playing what, Pleos? I'd be curious to quantify if an application system is a significant turnoff to players. It has obvious benefits (forces people to think a little in advance, weeds out problem cases, etc.), but the inconvenience could drive people off.
In some cases, driving some players off might actually be a good thing. It depends on the value you place on RP, I think. In a game where roleplaying standards are strict and players need to adhere to the documentation set out, then an app process would weed out people who don't give a hoot. You won't -want- players like that playing your game.

I've heard people complain "but I hate reading the docs!" Well um.. it's a TEXT based game. If you have issues reading the text that comes with it, then maybe you shouldn't be playing a text-based game.

Or..maybe the docs are so badly written that no one wants to read them. You can figure that out by looking at the people who LIKE the game and play it regularly. If they're playing it and adhering to the written guidelines, chances are they're written well. If they're playing it and disregarding the guidelines, then maybe you should consider a rewrite.

In summary, character applications can do nothing but help in a game where RP is essential and primary. At the very least, you'd want something like was previously suggested - anything other than human would require an app, until the player has proven their ability to play consistently and according to the documentation of the game.

In the game I play, all characters require apps. This is especially helpful to maintain certain standards, particularly in the case of new players. They really do have to have some amount of understanding of the game just to create the application in the first place. It minimizes the amount of disruptions that follow when someone just logs in without first having learned that it's a post-apocalyptic desert genre.
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Old 11-18-2003, 05:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
In some cases, driving some players off might actually be a good thing. It depends on the value you place on RP, I think. In a game where roleplaying standards are strict and players need to adhere to the documentation set out, then an app process would weed out people who don't give a hoot. You won't -want- players like that playing your game.
There's multiple ways to address that issue. The philosophy we've used on Carrion Fields has been to leave the door open to new players, and just keep an eye on them, guiding where needed. There's a lot of people who have the potential to get into an RP-mandatory game, but have not tried one before and aren't sure if they will like it. Just because they have only a casual interest, doesn't mean erecting a high entry barrier is the right answer.

Now, some people will log on and ignore the RP environment. Generally, we pull them aside and talk with them after dropping a few hints. If it's clear they aren't interested in changing, then we do what we do with anyone who doesn't stay within our rules, and show them the door.

I don't pretend to know the final answer. If nearly all of TP's playerbase doesn't mind the application, or like the structure it gives to their new creation, then you reap some rewards at minimal cost. If, on the other hand, everyone is playing humans in a month, then you know that they feel the barrier to entry is unnecessarily high.

Hence, my earlier question about acquiring some data. A little of that is probably worth more than forum posts.
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Old 11-18-2003, 05:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Nov. 18 2003,13:34)
Are you keeping any numbers on "before and after" distributions of who is playing what, Pleos?  I'd be curious to quantify if an application system is a significant turnoff to players.  It has obvious benefits (forces people to think a little in advance, weeds out problem cases, etc.), but the inconvenience could drive people off.
I hadn't thought to keep any official statistics on it, but I think over time we'll get a general sense of what's going on. To date, we have not received any significant complaints at all from the pbase (within the game or our forums).

I expect we'll see a reduction in the app-only races, which is only natural.

My one concern is that we'll see an increase in the non-human races that do not require applications. Not that an increase may necessarily be bad (could just be more solid RPers venturing to TP MUD), but it could mean those people who seek something "unique" and do not want to, or are incapable of filling out an appplication, are venturing to these races. We'll have to see how that goes specifically.

I suspect an application process -is- a turn off to some players, but I do not believe it's a turn off to the bulk of players we are trying to attract. However, we also haven't immediately taken it to the point where you require an application for all races - so in some ways we're hedging our bets, and taking this slowly (since it is a significant change for our pbase).

Now I know there are RPers out there that do not like an application process at all, and it's also for this reason that we haven't made all races require applications. This way those RPers who do not wish to fill out an application can get into TP quickly and get a feel for the game, see if it's right for them. (Note: There are more app-free races than app-only ones.)

This is hopefully a "best of both worlds" scenario.

I also expect some of our existing playerbase may leave because of this, and while that's disappointing, if RP is going to be our "raison d'etre" then we need to do everything we think is -right- in order to push that agenda and purpose forward.

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Old 11-20-2003, 02:46 AM   #17
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Okay, devil's advocate time...

I dropped by TP's website and read over the High Elf file... aside from one inconsistancy which isn't too big a deal, I kind of wondered if the reviewer was right in one aspect, that is that stereotypical racial behavior is restrictive. High Elves being good and pure is all well and good, but isn't that boring? I mean, in books and on MUDS my favourite characters have always been gray, conflicted, complex.... not 1 dimensional do-gooders.

I don't know if you've read the Silmarillion (definitive text on High Elves in my opinion, other than perhaps Laws And Customs of the Eldar, also by Tolkien), but my personal favourite characters were Feanor, Maedhros and Fingolfin. All three were at least somewhat good, but they were arrogant and conceited. They did Evil's work, killing other elves and betraying their friends, not because they were evil, but because they thought it was right and what was owed to them. They were complex characters. The previous poster's lament to the Dudley Dark Elf (kidding, we all read those books...) is not really that central to my concerns... that's another 1 dimensional character and not necessarily the best RP IMO. I think there is a distinction to be made between the High-Elf enchanter who is so vain he values his work above human and elvish life, and the High-Elf enchanter who is bitter cause he got beat up in the playground and now wants revenge.

I didn't notice any provision for that... is there one?
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Old 11-20-2003, 02:49 AM   #18
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Oh, forgot to add... good response Pleos. It definately projects a positive image of the admin at TP.
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Old 11-20-2003, 09:29 AM   #19
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Hey Geras,

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I dropped by TP's website and read over the High Elf file... aside from one inconsistancy which isn't too big a deal, I kind of wondered if the reviewer was right in one aspect, that is that stereotypical racial behavior is restrictive.  High Elves being good and pure is all well and good, but isn't that boring? I mean, in books and on MUDS my favourite characters have always been gray, conflicted, complex.... not 1 dimensional do-gooders.
What one person finds boring, another finds interesting. What one person finds boring, another finds challenging. I think it's all in the eye of the beholder really. When I play a MUD character I riddle him with faults, confusions and all sorts of "negative" aspects, because it's fun and challenging to play up the conflict between positive and negative traits, strengths and weaknesses. Many people do not do this, they often want the "uber powerful" char.

High elven personalities are restrictive on TP MUD, there's no disagreement there. They were designed that way. And while they're called high elves, it's dangerous to draw too many parallels with outside references to high elves. We could probably find some references that have them as nature lovers, flitting about in the forest, other references that are as you described, others still that are different from that. So there's a danger in coming into any game and saying, "Oh they have high elves, I know what those are like from such-and-such a reference."

Now it might seem that high elves are one dimensional, and certainly they are moreso than humans and other races. But that doesn't mean they're completely so. High elves have faults, like any other race, as they should. Also, there are areas of variation between high elves too that can be explored. For example, how well does your high elf character interact with humans? Currently a half-elf leads the Empire, how does your high elf character respond to that? How "snobby" is your high elf to others ("snobby" being what the other races would call it)?

There can also be inner conflict within the high elven community on how to handle everything from the affairs of Elysia (the continent they hail from), how to deal with the Darkess of Labyria, etc.

So there can definitely be variation, high elves aren't all exact copies of one another. But the variation is more subtle, requiring a more deft handle and touch. There's a certain maturity in a player's roleplay that's required to understand the nuances of a high elven personality. Humans are much clearer to us (since we are humans), and some other races have built in dichotomies and struggles already.

I think high elves in this case, "talk" to one side of many people's personalities, the good and righteous side, the bravado that we often envision having, the bit inside us that says, "Go get them and take them out!" Each of the races that are specialized in some way (i.e. are not as loose and open as humans) "talk" to some trait within us. When we're in the mood to be dastardly and evil, we can play a dark elf, and really explore those feelings within ourselves, or at least express some of that in a pure form of a dark elf. And so on.

Furthermore, high elves ultimately can end up walking a different path - perhaps they do have legitimate reason to sway from the Light, but then the other high elves and ultimately, the Gods, will step in.

Hope that helps, Geras.

Pleos

(PS. Wanna email me about the one inconsistency you mentioned? *smile* -- pleos@mud.tp.org)
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Old 11-20-2003, 10:06 AM   #20
Jazuela
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A parallel can be drawn I think between Pleos' vision of the so-called "one-dimensional" high elf and elves in Arm.

(Sorry, typing "the game I play" every few sentences is silly so I'm gonna name it.)

In Arm, elves are thieves. All of them. You might as well just consider it a genetic trait, like being born with eye sockets is a genetic trait. Now, this might seem one-dimensional to people who don't take time to consider all the possible nuances of being a thief.

You can have a pick-pocket/cutpurse, or a burglar, or a schemer, a scammer.. a spy who steals information from his mark and sells it to the highest bidder... a scavenger who lifts the spoils of battle from the dead and sells it off to survive. A jeweler who makes quick and easy bracelets and sells them to suckers for far more than their actual value...

Stealing isn't just using the coded "steal object" bit, though that's certainly one type of theft. An elf can even woo a woman with flattery to steal her virginity.. anything that allows an elf to get more than he gives could be construed as thiefly behavior.

So a high elf in Pleos' game can be good, but there are so many WAYS to be good that you could spend several real-life years exploring them and still not touch on half.
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