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Old 10-27-2003, 03:05 PM   #1
the_logos
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I’m done with these forums. There are some intelligent, highly competent people on these forums. Unfortunately, there are also some people who seem to have a problem with other people’s success and look for reasons to bash them. I’d just about had enough of it myself and should have just given up on these forums after I actually had to shut up one loud-mouthed juvenile here with a threatened lawsuit for implying that Achaea supports/condones pedophilia. (Talk about looking for ANY excuse to attack a more successful mud developer.)  

These attacks on Aardwolf are the final straw for me. They’re a great mud with a far larger claim to representing this mythical “the mud community” than these forums do (they, like most large muds, have considerably more mudders than these forums do). And yet we have to put up with a few people here claiming that their handful of voices represents “the mud community” and implying that “the mud community” condemns Aardwolf’s actions. Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks. The mud community clearly supports Aardwolf. That is what is called ‘reality’. They have thousands of players. Do you have thousands of people speaking up against them? I thought not. Not that it should matter whether “the mud community” supports Aardwolf or not. They’re not violating the license, as is really fairly obvious to anyone interested in thinking about this critically, and thus it doesn’t matter if 100,000 mudders condemned their behavior.

Anyway, no doubt a few of you will be happy not to have me involved in discussions here (though I’ll still post announcements). Funny how all the top mud developers either don’t bother with mud forums (Simutronics for instance) or eventually get disgusted by the juveniles in them and simply stop participating. Probably explains why the quality of practical discussion is generally so low. The wannabes drown out the people actually doing it and doing it well. It’s a shame too but without real moderation I don’t see it changing.

Grow up and leave Aardwolf alone.

--matt
P.S. I’m not referring to you Hephos, despite starting that thread about Aardwolf. I realize you started it more as a way of pointing out the hypocrisy of the forum members who shout the loudest about the DIKU license. I’m also not really talking about you Kavir, though I think you’ve dug yourself such a deep hole with your long-standing DIKU re-interpretation that you’re not willing to look at it objectively anymore.
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Old 10-27-2003, 04:48 PM   #2
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Wink

Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays.

I always wanted to say that.
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Old 10-27-2003, 07:31 PM   #3
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Perhaps the owners can look into a little more active administration of the boards, to help matters. Clearly, losing anyone with any experience (be it small or large) is damaging to the general readership.

Losing somone as experienced as Matt is a great shame, especially for those of us hoping to make something of a career out of mudding as he has.

Thain.
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Old 10-27-2003, 07:47 PM   #4
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Personally, I did think that all these posts tended to the side of immaturity.

Although, I did also think that people going "It's against the Diku License. Hex on Aardwolf!!!" was a bit nerdy. Wait, what am I saying... "a bit"

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Old 10-27-2003, 08:47 PM   #5
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"All these posts", including this one, yeah.
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Old 10-28-2003, 09:57 AM   #6
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A statistic that never ceases to amaze me, and one that I think everyone should hold in their hearts when attempting an argument with anyone, is that 50% of all people aren't quite as smart as the other 50%.

Let's look at some evidence:

i) The DIKUMud licence, as written, is incredibly poorly worded and ambiguous in what it specifies and its intent. For example, specifying that the licensee not make profit "in any possible way" implies that there's at least one other way than the one most normally thought of, and no, you can't do that either.

ii) Given that the DIKUMud codebase is derivitive of a university project, it's possible that the licence itself is invalid. My final year project for university required us (the student collective) to write over the rights to the assignments (except for special industry-requested ones, in which case "arrangements" were made) to the university. This is most commonly ignored because, well, if it's invalid then 2,000 muds go up in smoke. Anyway, for me at least, it speaks strongly against commercializing the codebase lest the next point be destroyed by DIKU itself waking up.

iii) It ain't never not nohow gonna go to court. Unless you're substantially large (c.f. Everquest).

iv) While (as already said), the licence as written is unclear, the intent of the licence, as least as far as Mr. Staerfeldt and Mr. Seifert are concerned, is clear. The other two have been inactive for a number of years and I doubt that we'll ever get their opinion, if they even care.

So what are we left with? With all due respect to the amount of amateur legal work that has gone on in researching this case over the years, the legal junk doesn't really mean anything (viz. iii). But, when it comes down to what the individual thinks of as right and wrong, this particular individual feels strongly that respecting the wishes of the authors weighs far more strongly on the side of right than does abusing the inconsistent licence in order to make a few quid.

Of course, this may just be due to the fact that I know I'm competent enough to write a mud from scratch in any case, and thus have no perceived need to use the DIKUMud codebase to earn money, but I also think that's how the mud community feels as well (or at least this mud community, for what you perceive as a lack of a greater entity which encompasses all mudders around the world). And that's what we're left with. We cheer for those we feel are right, and shun those that we feel are wrong.

And then there's the third side who believe that what the offending mud does is wrong, but really enjoy playing there, and come up with all sorts of strange justifications - much like those who defend warezing or downloading unlicensed MP3s with illogic such as "It doesn't cost them anything," "I'm striking back at the fat-cats of the industry!" and "You're just jealous you didn't think of it first!".

So all said and done, Mr. Mihaly and indeed Mr. (Chief Aardwolf Bloke), ignoring legal arguments and speaking from the heart, do you believe that commercializing DIKUMud and its derivitives is a right and honourable thing to do?
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Old 10-28-2003, 10:22 AM   #7
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Kastaagar:

Can I like, mudsex your brain? Please? We can even fade to black if you want.

Kastaagar has a sexy brain.

Woo!
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Old 10-28-2003, 10:28 AM   #8
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So all said and done, Mr. Mihaly and indeed Mr. (Chief Aardwolf Bloke), ignoring legal arguments and speaking from the heart, do you believe that commercializing DIKUMud and its derivitives is a right and honourable thing to do?
First of all, i'm not either of those two people above, so don't take my words as such

That said, I think there's a big leap between taking donations to cover server/bandwidth costs and giving a pittiance in-game in return (what Aardwolf does), and "commercializing DikuMUD", which to my mind, would constitute things like paid access, actual selling of in-game items for real money, stripping credits, and so on.

I'm sure someone will post after this and say "But they're still giving something in exchange for money! It doesn't matter how much!", but I think it's important not to over-exaggerate things all the same.

I really wish one of the DikuMUD creators, or Russ Taylor, or somebody of that nature would show up to help clarify this, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen- and they're the only ones who can really give a definitive answer on all of this.
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Old 10-28-2003, 10:34 AM   #9
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Well thats sad matt. It is fun to get some input/feedback from people that run commercial muds and have some experience from running real games (ie no kindergarden pothole for newbie coders like the rest of the 99% of the muds).

But, you're probably right, being part of these discussions only gives "bad" things back to oneself. Posting here, does not give anything back to the poster expept for maybe getting harrased by weirdos that take things too personally.

It may be a good idea to _only_ use the announcement forums, and i might just do that myself.
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Old 10-28-2003, 11:07 AM   #10
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Well thats sad matt. It is fun to get some input/feedback from people that run commercial muds and have some experience from running real games (ie no kindergarden pothole for newbie coders like the rest of the 99% of the muds).
There can be muds out there that are 'real games' without being commercial... It is possible. Just as it is possible that there are some 'small muds' that are real games as well. The small muds have different issues to deal with than large muds do, but that doesn't make them not real games.
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Old 10-28-2003, 11:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jaenelle @ Oct. 28 2003,11:07)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Well thats sad matt. It is fun to get some input/feedback from people that run commercial muds and have some experience from running real games (ie no kindergarden pothole for newbie coders like the rest of the 99% of the muds).
There can be muds out there that are 'real games' without being commercial... It is possible.    Just as it is possible that there are some 'small muds' that are real games as well. The small muds have different issues to deal with than large muds do, but that doesn't make them not real games.
Well that is a matter of opinions It was just my definition of a real game, sorry.
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Old 10-28-2003, 11:36 AM   #12
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Considering the many smug, arrogant and inflammatory posts from the_logos on various forums, I’d say he’s dug his own “deep hole”.

Few posters have managed to insult such a large number of other posters in such a short time. After that, claiming that other posters “seem to have a problem with other people’s success and look for reasons to bash them” is a cheap way of avoiding the issue.

He is not being “bashed” on these forums because he is “successful”. The reason people attack him is that they don’t like his opinions and his rude and loud-mouthed way of forcing them on everybody.

Aardwolf is not being attacked because they are ‘successful’ either. They are being attacked because they are violating the spirit of the Diku Licence.

The sleazy ‘used-cars-salesman’ advice repeatedly provided in the Diku thread by the_logos probably did more harm to this licence than any action performed by a single person, since Vryce put his “successful” scam afloat. (I apologise in advance to all used cars salesmen for the analogy).

Also, labelling those that don’t share his opinions ‘Priests and Zealots’ while the ones that do are ‘Professionals’ is a new low water mark of debate technique.

Finally, defining the ‘Mud Community’ as consisting rather of an anonymous mass of “thousands of players” than the people that actually create and develop Muds strikes me as slightly ridiculous. Without the Mud developers there wouldn’t even be any Muds for those thousands to play. The people that actively use these boards are mostly Mud Aministrators, and those are also the people who have any impact on which direction the community will be taking. The majority of mudders couldn’t care less about questions of ethics, moral, IP theft or even contract law, which is clearly demonstrated by the ”thousands of players” Medievia has.

If people want their Muds to be commercial, they should code them from scratch themself, not abuse the work of others in a way expressively against their wishes.
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Old 10-28-2003, 12:03 PM   #13
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Finally, defining the ‘Mud Community’ as consisting rather of an anonymous mass of “thousands of players” than the people that actually create and develop Muds strikes me as slightly ridiculous. Without the Mud developers there wouldn’t even be any Muds for those thousands to play.
Do you realize how incredibly arrogant that sounds? You would do well to remember that, without players, your creations would be empty, quiet, and pretty much useless. The "Mud Community" is both groups, not just players or administrators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
If people want their Muds to be commercial, they should code them from scratch themself, not abuse the work of others in a way expressively against their wishes.
At the risk of repeating myself or being nitpicking, this is exactly what's going to be/is being done with Aardwolf. Read some of the other posts here for details, or maybe actually try logging on to Aard for a minute or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The people that actively use these boards are mostly Mud Aministrators, and those are also the people who have any impact on which direction the community will be taking.
Again, this is arrogant beyond words. I guess i'll stay away from 4Dimensions, because every MUD i've spent a decent amount of time on actually cares about player suggestions as much as those from staff, and allows those suggestions to help shape what direction the game's development takes.

But then again, i'm just a lowly player, what do I know about anything, eh?
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Old 10-28-2003, 12:51 PM   #14
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Well, I have no quarrel with you, Deathwing, so just let me clarify a couple of things.

Certainly players are important to Muds. Most Mud Administrators, including those on my own Mud, also listen to player suggestions, and quite often implement them, unless they are unbalancing or totally out of character for the Mud's specific theme.

These things certainly influence that particular Mud, but in a rather limited way compared to the immense total work that goes into coding and creating a good Mud. And they have very little impact on the Mud Community in general.

Yes, Aardwolf are planning to recode their Mud from scratch and go commercial. Don't you think it would have been better if they had waited until the time they had finished that project before they started to give in-game rewards for money?
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Old 10-28-2003, 02:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by (vedic @ Oct. 27 2003,20:47)
"All these posts", including this one, yeah.
Agree.
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Old 10-28-2003, 02:51 PM   #16
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Anyway, no doubt a few of you will be happy not to have me involved in discussions here (though I’ll still post announcements). Funny how all the top mud developers either don’t bother with mud forums (Simutronics for instance) or eventually get disgusted by the juveniles in them and simply stop participating. Probably explains why the quality of practical discussion is generally so low. The wannabes drown out the people actually doing it and doing it well. It’s a shame too but without real moderation I don’t see it changing.

P.S. I’m not referring to you Hephos, despite starting that thread about Aardwolf. I realize you started it more as a way of pointing out the hypocrisy of the forum members who shout the loudest about the DIKU license. I’m also not really talking about you Kavir, though I think you’ve dug yourself such a deep hole with your long-standing DIKU re-interpretation that you’re not willing to look at it objectively anymore.
Um... Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't he just added new fuel to this fire with his Diku discussions? It seems rather bratty to leave over other people's opinions and discussions, no one asked him for his participation. And if everyone's such a wannabe who posts about legal issues (or maybe it's anyone but himself who posts at all), why not start some 'practical' discussion himself? Most of his posts seem to me to be about legal issues. Wanna talk about hypocracy?
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Old 10-28-2003, 04:52 PM   #17
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Loaded Apologies:

To the_logos, I'm sorry that you decided to stop GIVING something to the community because of a debate around licence issues.  However many people decide to stop GIVING things like code to the community because of licence breakers, that's oddly similar somehow.

To Lasher, sorry I lost the emails after that note, I found them very amusing, that one person could get you madder than 20 people on rgmd could ever get Mikey K.

To Richard, sorry for making you work so hard in the last week or so. But I know you enjoyed it.

And to all those people who say we just don't know what the real intent was ....

YES WE DO!!!  Like Kas said, the Diku team (mostly) haven't dissapeared, if you don't believe us, stop repeating what you think is the line to end all conversation, and email them yourself!

Edit: Just noticed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
really wish one of the DikuMUD creators, or Russ Taylor, or somebody of that nature would show up to help clarify this, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen- and they're the only ones who can really give a definitive answer on all of this.
Where is your data to support this, have you tried ASKING any of them? Contrary to what must be popular belief they are just people, they aren't bloody omniscient or anything, nor do they have staffers who browse the web looking for pertinant topics.... PICK UP YOUR EMAIL CLIENT, REACH OUT, AND TOUCH SOMEONE!

I'll do half the job for you, rt can be reached at:

rtaylor@cmc.net

Look, it's even a link, less effort required for you.
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Old 10-28-2003, 05:38 PM   #18
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Well, sorry if I flew off the handle a bit there, 'tis a bit of a sore spot with me. Anyway...


Quote:
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Yeas, Aardwolf are planning to recode their Mud from scratch and go commercial.
First of all, hold up a second....I'm not sure what you mean by "go commercial". If you mean continue to take donations, then I suppose so, though I fail to see how that would constitute a change of direction.

If you mean start charging to play, blatantly sell in-game items for real money, or other such things, then I can say with 99.9999% assurance that you are dead wrong, for as long as Aard stays up.

From all appearances, Lasher is recoding the mud because he wants to, not to appease anyone. I guess the removal of these liscense issues is just a rather nice side effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Don't you think it would have been better if they had waited until the time they had finished that project before they started to give in-game rewards for money?
Maybe, maybe not. I find it kinda amusing (or ironic) that Aard has been taking donations in the current fashion for at least a year or two now, and nobody complains about it until it shows up on the list here.


Koryon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Where is your data to support this, have you tried ASKING any of them? Contrary to what must be popular belief they are just people, they aren't bloody omniscient or anything, nor do they have staffers who browse the web looking for pertinant topics.... PICK UP YOUR EMAIL CLIENT, REACH OUT, AND TOUCH SOMEONE!
Woah there....I didn't say it was a hard and fast piece of proof, I was just stating what i've gathered from participating in various public discussions over time. Maybe I will email one of them, but not just because you scream at me.
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Old 10-29-2003, 05:19 AM   #19
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I find it kinda amusing (or ironic) that Aard has been taking donations in the current fashion for at least a year or two now, and nobody complains about it until it shows up on the list here.
We are not omniscient. Most of us only play a small handful of muds, and therefore we don't automatically know when other muds are violating their license unless someone informs us.

In this case, Aardwolf was actually praised for showing up on the list - for being a "non-commercial" mud that had finally knocked Achaea from first place (I even clicked a vote for Aardwolf myself, to help cheer them on). Only then was it debated whether or not Aardwolf was, in fact, non-commercial - and that involved someone pointing out the fact that it was selling in-game benefits.

So yes, drawing a lot of attention to your mud will result in people noticing things that you might otherwise have rather they didn't - nothing amusing or ironic about that, just common sense.

And as to "why" we are so against such activity - well, you can read my views here: www.med.kavir.org
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Old 10-29-2003, 06:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Oct. 27 2003,15:05)
I’m done with these forums...some people who seem to have a problem with other people’s success and look for reasons to bash them...probably explains why the quality of practical discussion is generally so low...I think you’ve dug yourself such a deep hole with your long-standing DIKU re-interpretation that you’re not willing to look at it objectively anymore.
The issue of someone getting upset about another person's legal interpretation of anything amuses me.  It's a bit ( ! ) hypocritical to attack others for one's own legal interpretation while having done the same yourself.  Anyone recall this topic?

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....=4&t=24

No subtlety in the opening statement nor in subsequent posts by the above-noted hypocrite.  "Thief" and "IP theft" don't qualify as bashing?

the_logos, you can call the kettle black all you want, but I agree with an above post.  You've dug your own hole when it comes to criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 30 2003,20:22)
I would just like to see some consistency from the mud crowd on these boards.
So would I.  I hope it begins with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Oct. 27 2003,15:05)
I’m done with these forums.
Have a nice day,

Jason
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