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Old 02-03-2006, 01:18 PM   #21
Rastus
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Wow. You people are actually buying Lothos's bullcrap lol. Nice. Welcome to Lothos's game of chess. The_logos seems like another good pawn for him. I can't wait for him to go play your game and give hell to the playerbase ,but mainly yourself.

Seriously, this guy has done countless things to MM that should have gotten him deleted long ago. I remember one time his site forcing people using some sort of trojan like virus to post comments and spam the entire player profiles on MM. Man, that was awfully nice of him. The guy, as Tyben more or less said, is bipolar. You can't be nice to him. You can't say anything personal, and so help his little nerd fingers you CANT say or do anything to **** the little ankle biter off.

This guy was a horrible part of MM and I am glad he's gone. I'm sure many players are glad he's gone. The only reason anyone liked the guy was for his stupid quest tracker. I'm sure he had some other "real" friends on the game but it was only a matter of time before he went insane and became a hermit again. I am still laughing that he's crying. He finally got what he deserved and so he can't handle it and is trying to once again make MM out to be this horrible place. Nice, but totally untrue.

Anyway, the only positive thing I can see out of all this is "Any publicity is good publicity." You guys can throw insults at MM all day, but the fact of the matter is, we are, and will always be a better mud. Get used to it and stop taking every chance you get to bring us down a notch. Worry about your own damn mud. This crap happened TOO long ago to care and the only evidence you have isn't evidence when it's completely made up (Lothos told me himself mind you that it was because I, am good friends with lothos you see, but I couldn't sit back and watch it happen.) So to all you morons who believed him HAHAHAHAHA
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:20 PM   #22
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Oh wait, I lied about the last part, I felt the Lothos within me coming out....sorry! I am not good friends with him I wonder if I could have pulled it off...You people tend to believe bullcrap.
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by (Rastus @ Feb. 03 2006,20:18)
Wow. You people are actually buying Lothos's bullcrap lol.
I think you're reading too much into it. MM was banned for cheating - that's an undisputed fact. Whether events occurred as Lothos described is just speculation, but the method he described is certainly of interest to many readers.
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:51 PM   #24
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Here's a link to an entire AIM (?) dialog, spanning several monthes, between Lothos and Vassago.

http://www.pkzone.org/misc/logs.php?logid=513

This log and Vassago's own comments on other MUD's, their administrators, ROM codebase, and his "IRC warrior days" should shed some light on the real person behind the game.

I was approached even before Lothos to have a voting program written, back in 2000-2001.  This was when Realms of Despair was constantly #1, and he just couldn't "figure out how", even though they had 3x as many players logged on at any time.  The deception and cheating are but bubbles in a pool of problems that plague the game's administration.  The people posting in Vassago's defense are not people who have dealt with him on a personal level, or been involved in other aspects of Materia Magica.

Lothos has been an outspoken critic of changes and problems on Materia Magica, but he has also been a valuable supporter and resource to the game and administration.  His website alone is the most full featured, highest traffic site the game has ever seen.  The time and effort he has spent developing PKZone, working with administrators to fix bugs, and even writing code for the game itself, far surpasses that of any player on the game.  He was not a person who ever badmouthed or disliked the game, but one who hoped open dialog could spark positive changes.  His characters were deleted not for cheating or being a troublemaker, but because he decided to speak out against Vassago's censorship on his own site.
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:54 PM   #25
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Having tried all the MUDs that have consistently appeared on the TMS Top 100, I have given Materia Magica two attempts. Both times I've been as unimpressed as possible. The word pathetic doesn't really describe my feelings toward what they offer. So, claims that Materia Magica didn't cheat from individuals that also claim it's a good MUD make me laugh.

They cheated. Synoozer should boot them off permanently. One less piece of trash cluttering up the list.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 02-03-2006, 02:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 03 2006,14:54)
Having tried all the MUDs that have consistently appeared on the TMS Top 100, I have given Materia Magica two attempts. Both times I've been as unimpressed as possible. The word pathetic doesn't really describe my feelings toward what they offer. So, claims that Materia Magica didn't cheat from individuals that also claim it's a good MUD make me laugh.

They cheated. Synoozer should boot them off permanently. One less piece of trash cluttering up the list.

Take care,

Jason
I think it's sad that you're so willing to conflate "having a different opinion" with "being a liar." Your personal opinion on MM's quality is precisely as valid as anyone else's (including the posters defending MM), and is beside the point of this thread. To claim that because someone's opinion on the quality of MM is different from yours they must, thus, be lying about something else is just as silly as claiming that because someone likes Neopolitan ice cream (I think it's crap), they must be lying about how Neopolitan ice cream is made.

MM is a popular game. They've obviously done a good job of making a game that a lot of people consider quality. They were also booted off for cheating. I can't see what one has to do with the other.

--matt
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Old 02-03-2006, 03:19 PM   #27
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Why not tell Synozeer then, and let him kick the offending MUDs off? Adam is happy to kick off MUDs that cheat. He's kicked off multiple cheating MUDs, from Materia Magica to Merentha to Medievia. On the other hand, if Adam doesn't think a certain practice is cheating, it's not. He is the sole materially relevant judge on what is and isn't cheating, and he clearly felt MM was cheating.
Because, as with many aspects of life, certain people (in this case, owners of MUDs and their MUDs themselves) are favored over others for a multitude of different reasons. This is an indisputable fact of life. In particular, there is no such thing as an objective ranking system. I've seen more rules modified to accomodate these particular games and their owners than I care to discuss. Does the fact that game A broke the rules and got removed and game B broke the rules, but got the rules changed so they could stay, mean that game A is in any way 'worse' than game B? Many here would say yes. I say no.
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Old 02-03-2006, 04:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by (ixlone @ Feb. 03 2006,08:05)
The quality of a IEN like materia magica has nothing to do with whether or not votes were padded. The fact is MM is a much better IEN than most of the crap out there, ive tried many muds, and logged off in a few mins after laughing at how crap they are. Hell even MM home page is a piece of art work, its much better done than any other site.

So have fun playing what ever you do play, but if you want to play a better game feel free to log on to MM.

Ixlone.
I assume that a game that was actually good wouldn't have to cheat outrageously to get ahead.

It's a bit like succeeding in a sport through heavy drug use, then claiming that you would have been able to just win without having to sink to those depths. I say 'a bit' because from what I understand, even with all that cheating MM still couldn't win. Sad.
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Old 02-03-2006, 05:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by (somied @ Feb. 03 2006,16:19)
Because, as with many aspects of life, certain people (in this case, owners of MUDs and their MUDs themselves) are favored over others for a multitude of different reasons.  This is an indisputable fact of life.  In particular, there is no such thing as an objective ranking system.  I've seen more rules modified to accomodate these particular games and their owners than I care to discuss.  Does the fact that game A broke the rules and got removed and game B broke the rules, but got the rules changed so they could stay, mean that game A is in any way 'worse' than game B?  Many here would say yes.  I say no.
This being the case, why are you still here and talking?

If I thought the fix was on and corruption ruled the day, I sure as hell wouldn't be here metaphorically ****ing in the wind. I'd be out doing something less stupid, such as going outside and literally ****ing in the wind.
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Old 02-03-2006, 06:30 PM   #30
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I really couldn't give a toss if he cheated or not, the fact is materia magica is easily the best game out there, all this thread is doing is throwing free advertising MM's way so thx.

Ixlone

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Old 02-03-2006, 08:30 PM   #31
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I agree with Ixlone. And it seems that we're that mud that you guys are all just waiting to jump on and cheat. Hey, I never cheated. Hell, 99.9999% of the playerbase cheated. The fact is, logs can be made up and even if those logs are true there are huge chunks missing. Vassago can't make a player stop cheating and so we all suffer because of one jackass. Surprise surprise. So don't tell me WE cheat. WE don't cheat. Certain players might, I can't say they don't. I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later. Ignorance is a bliss.
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rastus @ Feb. 03 2006,21:30)
I agree with Ixlone. And it seems that we're that mud that you guys are all just waiting to jump on and cheat. Hey, I never cheated. Hell, 99.9999% of the playerbase cheated. The fact is, logs can be made up and even if those logs are true there are huge chunks missing. Vassago can't make a player stop cheating and so we all suffer because of one jackass. Surprise surprise. So don't tell me WE cheat. WE don't cheat. Certain players might, I can't say they don't. I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later. Ignorance is a bliss.
When that "certain player" is the owner, it rather reflects poorly on the game as a whole, regardless of the circumstances. It makes no difference whether Vassago created the voting script on his own (though he apparently lacked the technical knowledge to do so) or had to have Lothos do it for him, in the end, Vassago sought out means to cheat and did so.
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by (ixlone @ Feb. 03 2006,19:30)
I really couldn't give a toss if he cheated or not, the fact is materia magica is easily the best game out there, all this thread is doing is throwing free advertising MM's way so thx.
Yes, that certainly explains why Vassago sent me such an angry email after I posted that web address. Do you think he was angry because he appreciates this thread and the exposure? Or do you think he might be angry because he doesn't like his cheating brought into a discussion again? I'm going to go with the latter.

--matt
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:58 AM   #34
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This being the case, why are you still here and talking?

If I thought the fix was on and corruption ruled the day, I sure as hell wouldn't be here metaphorically ****ing in the wind. I'd be out doing something less stupid, such as going outside and literally ****ing in the wind.
Because even though I disagree with the ranking system (popularity contest that doesn't reflect actual game quality) and how its rules are created, enforced, and modified, I still enjoy reading and discussing things pertaining to the MUD community every once in a while on these forums.
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Old 02-04-2006, 08:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by (Rastus @ Feb. 03 2006,21:30)
I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later.
I don't think that's the case for anyone here.

There probably have been other MUDs banned from TMS at some point for cheating in a similar way, but this is the one we all remember hearing about. If you'll look at the start of this thread, the_logos wasn't trying to bash MM down. That they were caught cheating is not debatable, it is, as you say, yesterday's news. Rather, it was about the how it was done. Is it so hard to believe that in this community, people would be interested in that?

Anyway, even if people were threatened by MM (I'd personally never heard of it until they were caught cheating and that whole debacle), I doubt they would be now. If a person does great and benevolent works their whole life, but then is caught trying to pick up a twelve year old boy in a chat room, they'll forever after be just a child molester in the public eye, whether it's fair or not. Cheating to get ahead on TMS is kind of like that. Whether MM is a good or bad MUD, no one will ever after know or care, here -- if you mention it, people will just be like 'Oh, that cheater MUD?'

Whether that's fair or not, that's the way it is. No one feels threatened by a cheater MUD anymore than Mother Theresa is worried the child molester is going to edge her out for sainthood.
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Old 02-04-2006, 08:51 AM   #36
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Whatever, Rastus.  You cheated in the game for years and were rewarded by being placed on the staff and being given an Immortal.

Nice job toeing the company line, though.
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:19 PM   #37
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Nope. We stopped as soon as the rules were changed. We are sticklers for the rules and despite what some exciteable types might claim, we don't cheat.

--matt
I guess the first few 'insider traders' should be considered wholesome, blameless, upstanding people like you, since after all, there was no rule against it until they did it.

You don't actually have to break a rule in order to be doing something immoral or unethical.

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I think you should decide whether the site is supposed to be a traffic exchange (which is how its set up) or whether it's genuinely supposed to rate muds (in which case I wish you the best of luck in such a quixotic enterprise.) Assuming it's the former (and all signs certainly point to that), to whose benefit is it to make increasingly restrictive rules on voting practices? Traffic is traffic and the only people I ever see complaining about voting practices are an insignificant percentage (far less than 1%) of the site's users.
Well isn't this interesting. Here you are quite publically announcing how you think "traffic is traffic" regardless of voting practices (read: cheating), which is quite peculiar considering how often you're found insulting games who use questionable voting practices.

In fact, it seems as though you like to dance on that fine line between legal/illegal, right/wrong, etc. As I believe KaVir once said, you're more interested in following the letter of the rules rather than the spirit - which to me, is no better than those who break them.
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:22 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by (somied @ Feb. 04 2006,13:19)
In fact, it seems as though you like to dance on that fine line between legal/illegal, right/wrong, etc. As I believe KaVir once said, you're more interested in following the letter of the rules rather than the spirit - which to me, is no better than those who break them.
Yes, I'm completely interested in the letter of the law, because the letter of the law is what the law is. Different people have different versions of the "spirit of the law," and there's no valid way to claim that your personal interpretation of the "spirit of the law" is any more valid than anyone else's.

What I (and the site owner as far as I can tell) care about are what the rules are according to the person who interprets them (the site owner). You're free to inject your opinion on what you think the rules should be, but they aren't until the site owner says they are. Similarly, it doesn't matter a bit what you think about whether there is, say, a constitutional right to privacy in the US. What ultimately matters, and what IS the law is what the final interpreters (the US Supreme Court in the US) say. As far as I know, Adam (site owner) has never accused us of breaking any rules here, whereas MM was kicked off for breaking rules.

In any case, it'd be nice to see a little moderation here. What I personally have to do with this thread is a little beyond me. It's quite off-topic.

--matt
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (somied @ Feb. 04 2006,13:19)
Well isn't this interesting. Here you are quite publically announcing how you think "traffic is traffic" regardless of voting practices (read: cheating), which is quite peculiar considering how often you're found insulting games who use questionable voting practices.
Using bots to vote isn't "traffic". There's no one coming to the site, and thus, none of the muds listed here even get a glance from real players. That's why this kind of vote cheating is so harmful to the people interested in this issue. One person is generating hundreds and hundreds of votes for one mud that is sending no traffic at all.

Regardless of what you think of the_logos personally, this issue has very little to do with him except that he managed to find that article. Many of us have always wondered exactly how MM pulled off the obvious voting bot.
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Feb. 03 2006,15:13)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 03 2006,14:54)
Having tried all the MUDs that have consistently appeared on the TMS Top 100, I have given Materia Magica two attempts.  Both times I've been as unimpressed as possible.  The word pathetic doesn't really describe my feelings toward what they offer.  So, claims that Materia Magica didn't cheat from individuals that also claim it's a good MUD make me laugh.

They cheated.  Synoozer should boot them off permanently.  One less piece of trash cluttering up the list.

Take care,

Jason
I think it's sad that you're so willing to conflate "having a different opinion" with "being a liar." Your personal opinion on MM's quality is precisely as valid as anyone else's (including the posters defending MM), and is beside the point of this thread. To claim that because someone's opinion on the quality of MM is different from yours they must, thus, be lying about something else is just as silly as claiming that because someone likes Neopolitan ice cream (I think it's crap), they must be lying about how Neopolitan ice cream is made.

MM is a popular game. They've obviously done a good job of making a game that a lot of people consider quality. They were also booted off for cheating. I can't see what one has to do with the other.

--matt
What's sad is you misquoting me. Nowhere do I say "being a liar". That's your own petty twisting of my words. What I said was that claims from someone that thinks Materia Magica is a great game obviously are coming from a biased source, a source that is unlikely to consider fully that their MUD was caught cheating. It's not lying, it's just denial based on a biased, favorable opinion.

Lying would be claiming I said something that I didn't when you know well enough that I never said that in the first place.

Take care,

Jason
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