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Old 05-09-2005, 10:41 AM   #1
Aeran
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I have read this message board from time to time about 5 years now I believe. What amazes me is that the MUD community seem to be killing itself. Atleast if topmudsites is a representative of the rest of the community.

During these five years I have worked to save the MUD community in whatever way I have seen possible. However it's very tough to work against the tide.

Now I noticed that once again the flames have begun here - like so many times before. Medievia might have done a really horrible horrible thing but are you so much better yourself by killing the MUD community?

It isn't only when something negative happens but also each time something positive is about to happen the flames begin. Like when the_logos suggested MUDs work together on some advertisements. This could have limited the impact of the mmrpgs. This very resonable suggestion ended with pie throwing and name calling I believe. Is he such a bad person that nothing good can come from him? Why then does his games have 300 people or so playing them?

When reading the forums here you get disgusted by the MUD community. It doesn't seem to matter if it is admins from a MUD high up in the list or not. They still flame and due to the extremely poor moderation here the discussions get off topic very fast. Often thanks to flames. A MUD ranked high here is a MUD you shouldn't play it seems.

The moderators here need to see to it that threads stay productive, and avoid flaming themselves. This is a definition of the word 'moderator' I have found; "at a forum, someone entrusted by the administrator to help discussions stay productive and within the guidelines." and I believe this to rarely be the case here.
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Old 05-09-2005, 11:19 AM   #2
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I think you might want to look a bit more closely at who's starting the majority of the flame wars.

I also thoroughly disagree with your assessment of the MUD community "killing itself" - when I look at the recent threads I see almost everyone taking a stand together against a mud which has stolen from our community.  Most of these people have vastly different opinions and frequently clash on other issues, yet in this issue they've put their differences aside and speak with one voice in defence of our hobby and those who try to ruin it.  No prizes for guessing who's the lone voice defending the one harming our community, of course.

It rather reminds me of siblings who fight with each other constantly, yet immediately jump to each others defence when someone tries to do one of them real harm.
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Old 05-09-2005, 12:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 09 2005,10:19)
It rather reminds me of siblings who fight with each other constantly, yet immediately jump to each others defence when someone tries to do one of them real harm.
And as psychology will tell you - that kind of sibling relationship is counterproductive, and harmful.  A family unit is one where the members can find peace, comfort, and helpful uplifting support.

Not what you usually find here.  In some ways - I agree with Aeran.  It doesn't take long to travel down the threads and find people arguing over small trivial items in a discussion that could be truly great without it.  More often than not, discussions that could better the community overall (and I don't mean ones where people unite to "stand ... against a mud which has stolen from [the] community") end in flames because of peoples' opinions.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:48 PM   #4
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KaVir: I think you might want to look a bit more closely at who's starting the majority of the flame wars.
There's many who start them, or rather feed them. Some people seem to enjoy to throw gasoline into some really small sparkles to create these massive flame wars.

As an example it wasn't really the_logos who started a flame war in his thread "Welcome, Medievia". He did post a thread with the possibility to become one though. It was the users of this board who decided to let it actually happen. Had the thread been locked after the first page of flames it would probably have cooled down. I believe Vryce himself stated a few years ago that these flame wars brought a lot of new players to Medievia. So flaming in this case doesn't only seem bad but also makes Medievia stronger.

The moderators should really lock "Welcome, Medievia" now as it is off topic. The posts in there aren't at all related to "Welcome" anylonger - neither rude nor nice welcomes. Still they let that flame war continue to both advertise the MUD on the frontpage and upset people. We all know Medievia won't shutdown or put the credits online again. Flaming them doesn't do anyone good. That has been done for many years now anyway.

These flame wars aren't productive in any way for the MUD community nor this board. All they do is to make people want to leave it. Like Molly O'Hara.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aeran @ May 09 2005,13:48)
There's many who start them, or rather feed them. Some people seem to enjoy to throw gasoline into some really small sparkles to create these massive flame wars.

As an example it wasn't really the_logos who started a flame war in his thread "Welcome, Medievia". He did post a thread with the possibility to become one though. It was the users of this board who decided to let it actually happen. Had the thread been locked after the first page of flames it would probably have cooled down. I believe Vryce himself stated a few years ago that these flame wars brought a lot of new players to Medievia. So flaming in this case doesn't only seem bad but also makes Medievia stronger.
Yep, that's correct. Welcoming a MUD to the community after the community leader (Synozeer) made the decision to bring them in is no more than professional courtesy. The silly argument people made against doing that was that I shouldn't have welcomed them because other people disagree with me (ignoring the fact that there's nothing lamer than holding back ones opinion just because others disagree). It wouldn't have been a flame war if the usual suspects hadn't started flaming, and in no way is a flame ever required. They made the choice to flame.

And you're also correct that the flamers are helping Medievia by giving them promotional space. It's pretty funny, but when you're so caught up in blind hatred, you do stupid things I guess.

--matt
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:24 PM   #6
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If people want to flame, I say go ahead.  Flaming drums up business.  I say ALL MUDs should start they're own flamewars upon entrance into topmud.  Does anyone remember my first post?  It was a couple of sentences that basically said "Achaea Sucks".  My that was enjoyable.  Whatever happened to those times?  I miss 2004.
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aeran @ May 09 2005,10:41)
What amazes me is that the MUD community seem to be killing itself.
I'm sorry, but the damage done to all sense of trust and honor within the mud community by Medthievia is much more then anything going on right now with these flamewars(almost all of which are started by the_logos)
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:59 PM   #8
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...I'm rather new, so is it just me or does KaVir like to 'disagree' with everything? It's truly an honest question...
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:02 PM   #9
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Quiet. Or I shall have to ingest you for speaking badly about god.
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:07 PM   #10
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*gasp* anything but that...

...and you know, you complained in another board about those of us who are new and have very few posts, but how are we to raise the number of posts we've made if we don't post? It doesn't make sense, lovely.
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:48 PM   #11
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Yes I know, nothing makes sense anymore, it is all a paradox..
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Old 05-10-2005, 01:02 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by
And as psychology will tell you - that kind of sibling relationship is counterproductive, and harmful. A family unit is one where the members can find peace, comfort, and helpful uplifting support.
Psychology also states that a common enemy can help bond a community together, where there is a THEM that we can point at, and thus better define ourselves as a familial unit. This incident is not making the community weaker, but in fact, making it stronger. Circling the wagons, if you will.
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Old 05-10-2005, 08:09 AM   #13
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...but is a 'common enemy' really necessary? I mean -really-? Do we have to have enemies here? Is it so important to dogpile someone if someone isn't already being dogpiled and beaten to a pulp? That's a sad commentary, no wonder no one likes us. The outside world, I mean, the people who don't MUD.
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Old 05-10-2005, 04:47 PM   #14
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By the way, this is hillarious. It's a flame about someone asking us not to flame. I'm in love with the idea... *goes off to ponder the meaning of life*
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:02 PM   #15
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And as psychology will tell you - that kind of sibling relationship is counterproductive, and harmful.  A family unit is one where the members can find peace, comfort, and helpful uplifting support.
Yeah, what kind of wussy family is this?  You're supposed to be annoyed and aggravated by your siblings and have to deal with them otherwise you'll be poorly equipped for the real world.  If you fight with your siblings when you're little, you can fight with everyone else when you get older.  That's why dogs and other animals always spar.  So they'll be ready when they have to do it for real.  This kind of hippie idealism works great on paper but not in real life.
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Old 05-11-2005, 04:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Ilkidarios @ May 10 2005,21<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]This kind of hippie idealism works great on paper but not in real life.
Apparently your philosophy of "fight with your siblings when you're little [so] you can fight with everyone else when you get older" "So [you]'ll be ready when [you] have to do it for real" is doing everyone so well in real life ... as evidenced here on this once grand forum that now has declined into incompetent drivel.

Yes there will be natural conflict in a close-knit unit.  But dealing with that conflict in a mature manner is what distinguishes us from the animals you use as an example.  Intelligently debating and coming to some sort of resolution is what helped us evole to a higher mental state - percisely the reason those same animals you depicted are still - well, animals.
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:57 PM   #17
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Intelligent debating is the conflict that you are trained to deal with when you are little. I believe the common term for this idea is "arguments". The "resolution" is basically deciding a winner. We are animals. It's this high and mighty feeling that people get that makes them think they are above animals, when we are really on the same level. There is no rising above conflict. It will always be there. The only way to settle something is through conflict. The only animals I can think of with no internal conflict among themselves are not humans, but bees. But is that something we really want to model ourselves after? They exist in a zombified hive state. All they do is what they were built to do. Sure, they don't fight, but that's because they can't. Imagine a human society in which the only thing you do in life was what you were born to do with no questioning and no free will of your own, doesn't sound like the "paradise" everyone thinks a peaceful society would be like, is it?
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Old 05-12-2005, 03:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Ilkidarios @ May 11 2005,19:57)
There is no rising above conflict.  It will always be there.  The only way to settle something is through conflict.
This quote sums up exactly what I was saying ... we disagree apparently on HOW to settle conflict.  In your previous post you scoffed at the idea of dealing with conflict in a more mature, less violent manner than what I suggested.  You apparently want to fight to settle a debate, I suggest using higher reasoning.


Quote:
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We are animals.  It's this high and mighty feeling that people get that makes them think they are above animals, when we are really on the same level.
Maybe physiologically - but that's not what I am talking about.  We are NOT the same psychologically as animals.  Well, at least MOST of us aren't.  Humans have evolved mentally from other animals.  We display - on a greater average - the highest reasoning skills of any living creature currently in existence.  Yet, on this board (as well as in life) - what I was refering to - was the common regression to less intelligent means of conflict resolution.  And I was merely suggesting using other means.
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:00 AM   #19
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Ilkidarios: This kind of hippie idealism works great on paper but not in real life. ....
We are animals.  It's this high and mighty feeling that people get that makes them think they are above animals, when we are really on the same level.
When reading your posts it seems as if you are talking about a darwin-like system. There are some things you have to consider when it comes to natural selection.

You say that to solve a conflict there's also a winner. What really is the issue here is how a resolution is found. On this website a solution can be found by flaming eachother until everyone with a different idea than yours gives up. This would suggest that the people who stay on the boards are those with good flaming-skills. Yet that isn't productive for the MUD community.

I believe a darwinistic-system isn't always good. It is the circumstances that decide the outcome - not necessarily is the outcome good. It only reaches some kind of balance. A balance which could very well be Medievia as head innovator which everyone listen to. If they caused people who disagree with them to leave this board "only" loyal fans would be left here. At that time a kind of balance would have been reached.

It is clear that reasoning is a lot about logical thinking. This is something that humans are quite good at. However we are also able to go beyond logic in our reasoning. That is we have emotions.

There's absolutely no reason everything needs to be settled with flame wars.
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kopribear @ May 09 2005,22<!--emo&:0)
*gasp* anything but that...  ...and you know, you complained in another board about those of us who are new and have very few posts, but how are we to raise the number of posts we've made if we don't post? It doesn't make sense, lovely.
Kopribear, the recommended method is to compose posts that have substance and are relevant to the present discussion, rather than mass-composing attempts at wit and cries for attention.

As for the main thread, it's not sufficient to ask people to not post negatively about Medievia.  You can ask why they are angry (which has been covered), you can ask about what Medievia can do to remove the source of that anger (which has only recently started to enter the discussion), and you can ask about what Medievia is doing differently to change that perception (a topic which has not begun).  But if the situation remains unchanged, you should expect the opinions of people to remain unchanged.
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