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Old 04-13-2006, 07:44 PM   #21
KaVir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2006,01:33)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,19:27)
Okay.  You tell me.  What value is there to the prospective player to know that Bubba is now making his income purely through the mud, rather than from a mixture of the mud and flipping burgers at McDonalds?
I already told you.
No, you told me some points which would apply to commercial mud run by a registered business. None of them would apply to Bubba, however, who could quite happily join your list.

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Originally Posted by
If you actually want to claim (and completly destroy your credibility in the process) that there are not players who value knowing if a mud is professionally run, also fine.
Well that depends on what your definition of 'professional' is. Based on your definition, in which unemployeed stock mud owners are 'professionals' while the Blizzard team creating a free game in their spare time are not? No, I don't think that would be of value to prospective players.
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Old 04-13-2006, 07:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by (nhl @ April 14 2006,01:34)
None of the MUDs on the list fall into the category of being run by an unemployed guy who just wants to ripoff players.
Well it's an open list - feel free to update it.
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:00 PM   #23
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Funny how the list of free games gets "protected" from hijacking, when this one doesn't seem to get the same "protection."

Anyway, Persistent Realms will fall into this category. Once Ilyrias, our first game, is done I will be doing only work on our games and the overall company. I'd love to do it now, in the development stage, but wives are expensive and it's just not possible to live without other income.
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:11 PM   #24
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Ooh, look at all the derailment, now you how it feels when Matt posts in an otherwise productive thread.
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:27 PM   #25
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Other ones that should be on there:
* Avalon
* Medievia

I'm not sure how the operations of Eternal City work these days, so I'm not sure if they have paid staff running it or if it's volunteers only now. They might need to be on here. The same goes for Modus Operandi and Alliance of Heroes (other, very small, Simutronics text MUDS. I don't know if those two games are big enough to have paid staff working on them or not.

--matt
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:49 PM   #26
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Avalon is still kicking? Only time I hear that name, expecially when it comes from players, there's never nice words around it.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:50 AM   #27
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KaVir, you answered my question on the other thread and I was satisfied with the answer. The answer was :
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I don't think that's the important question. The important question is: Do enough of the non-commercial mud owners believe that they're at a disadvantage, and do they believe so strongly enough to put aside their differences and do something about it?
I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:53 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does.

I think the conceived insult does not necessarily come directly from the poster's post-text so much as even the name of the thread itself(implying that Professional Game Developers cannot run 100% Free MUDs, which is not true), as well as the timing to compare with the 100% Free MUD Advertising thread.

I won't go further off-topic and continue to post in this thread, and I think it is indirectly in everyone's best interest if we don't further the argument with the poster/etc, as it only fuels what is probably a negative-intentioned thread.
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Old 04-14-2006, 05:48 AM   #29
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The fact that Medievia was just invited to join the 'professioan list' by the_logos really says a lot about both.

Hope you enjoy the company, Threshold.
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Old 04-14-2006, 05:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ April 14 2006,04:53)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does.

I think the conceived insult does not necessarily come directly from the poster's post-text so much as even the name of the thread itself(implying that Professional Game Developers cannot run 100% Free MUDs, which is not true), as well as the timing to compare with the 100% Free MUD Advertising thread.

I won't go further off-topic and continue to post in this thread, and I think it is indirectly in everyone's best interest if we don't further the argument with the poster/etc, as it only fuels what is  probably a negative-intentioned thread.
This thread is just as much negative and flaim-bait as the other one. And it was already clarified that it wasn't a matter of professional game developers running 100% free MUDs, it was a matter of commercial motive.
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Old 04-14-2006, 08:57 AM   #31
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muds

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Originally Posted by
Most MUDs are run as hobbies and are free to players; some may accept donations or allow players to "purchase" in-game items. There are also many professionally developed MUDs which charge a monthly subscription fee.
Why not just add these lists to the wiki?
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:45 AM   #32
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I need clarification. Do you mean "professional" according to its primary definition:

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession

Or a secondary one:
2 c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

Please clarify, as I feel it would alter the composition of the list considerably.
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:01 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is a list for MUDs whose operator(s) are professional game developers whose main, full time job is the maintenance, management, and development of that MUD.
So generally leaning toward the secondary definition, but utilising parts of the primary as well.
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Old 04-14-2006, 11:20 AM   #34
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Davairus wrote; 2006,08:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muds

Quote
Most MUDs are run as hobbies and are free to players; some may accept donations or allow players to "purchase" in-game items. There are also many professionally developed MUDs which charge a monthly subscription fee.

Why not just add these lists to the wiki?
That is quite a good idea actually. Perhaps Crystal could oblige with the list of Quality Free Muds, since I am not very good at HTML myself?

Or maybe Wikipedia doesn't allow advertising?
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:10 PM   #35
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Wikipedia generally doesn't allow advertising. And judging from the discussions page on the wikipedia link above, the lists wouldn't be appreciated there.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:31 PM   #36
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Valg (now that I know you are reading the thread), will you please moderate out the off topic posts (KaVir's most notably) just like you did in the free mud/no-perks list?

Thanks.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by (Valg @ April 14 2006,09:45)
Please clarify, as I feel it would alter the composition of the list considerably.
I already clarified this and explained it. For the purposes of this list, the operator(s)/owner(s) of the MUD need to be professional game developers whose full time job is to maintain, manage, and develop the MUD. I could perhaps also add that the MUD must be part of a legally incorporated business, but perhaps that is too limiting. Since I started this list and this thread, I will be the final arbiter of which muds belong on the list. This is nothing different than what Anitra is doing on her excellent free-muds/no-perks list, and you repeatedly told other people it was "her" list and that other should not derail "her" list.

In other words, it does not include hobbyist muds whether or not they are run by people who develop other games or software in their primary profession.

The funny thing is, most people fully understand the difference between a professionally run mud vs. a hobbyist mud. This is a distinction that does indeed matter to a lot of players. There are a lot of people who have more confidence in a game run by professionals who have a vested interest (that of their own livelihood) in making sure the game continues to operate and grow. In fact, it is precisely BECAUSE this distinction matters to players that many non-professionals do not like this issue being discussed.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:58 PM   #38
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Updated List:

<span style='color:red'>Achaea</span> - Founded: September 1997 - telnet://achaea.com:23 - http://www.achaea.com

<span style='color:red'>Aetolia</span> - Founded: October 2001 - telnet://aetolia.com:23 - http://www.aetolia.com

<span style='color:red'>Dragonrealms</span> - Founded: February 1996 - no telnet - http://www.dragonrealms.com

<span style='color:red'>Gemstone III</span> - Founded: December 1989 - no telnet - http://www.gemstone3.com

<span style='color:red'>Imperian</span> - Founded: April 2003 - telnet://208.185.247.28:23 - http://www.imperian.com

<span style='color:red'>Lusternia</span> - Founded: October 2004 - telnet://lusternia.com:23 - http://www.lusternia.com

<span style='color:red'>Threshold RPG</span> - Founded: June 1996 - telnet://thresholdrpg.com:23 - http://www.thresholdrpg.com
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Old 04-14-2006, 02:12 PM   #39
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Someone has a case of the Mondays. And it's Friday!

As for moderation, I kept a light hand on the other thread (I took action on a total of two posts), and I intend to be consistent here. I don't mind if various people have their say, but on the other thread it was hitting the 10th page or so with posts that were near sentence-for-sentence reposts of earlier posts.

Given that you've recently posted a one-line name-calling post ("a birth-control fubar"), I'll be sure to give your opinion on netiquette the consideration it deserves.

As for the list, you're welcome to found whatever web sites you want. I just wanted clarification of what "professional" meant, since the "ethical standards" portion of the usual definition might exclude a MUD or two from possible inclusion.
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Old 04-14-2006, 02:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ April 14 2006,14:12)
Given that you've recently posted a one-line name-calling post ("a birth-control fubar"), I'll be sure to give your opinion on netiquette the consideration it deserves.
You really should be ashamed of this statement, and I hope Synozeer sees it and responds accordingly.

You, KaVir, and others are making your hypocrisy very plain to see for everyone.
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