Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Promotions and Events > Advertising for Players
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-14-2006, 04:14 PM   #41
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Updated List:

<span style='color:red'>Achaea</span> - Founded: September 1997 - telnet://achaea.com:23 - http://www.achaea.com

<span style='color:red'>Avalon: (TFA)</span> - Founded: January 1998, telnet://130.94.75.70:23 - http://www.firstage.net

<span style='color:red'>Aetolia</span> - Founded: October 2001 - telnet://aetolia.com:23 - http://www.aetolia.com

<span style='color:red'>Dragonrealms</span> - Founded: February 1996 - no telnet - http://www.dragonrealms.com

<span style='color:red'>Gemstone III</span> - Founded: December 1989 - no telnet - http://www.gemstone3.com

<span style='color:red'>Imperian</span> - Founded: April 2003 - telnet://208.185.247.28:23 - http://www.imperian.com

<span style='color:red'>Lusternia</span> - Founded: October 2004 - telnet://lusternia.com:23 - http://www.lusternia.com

<span style='color:red'>Threshold RPG</span> - Founded: June 1996 - telnet://thresholdrpg.com:23 - http://www.thresholdrpg.com
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 05:00 PM   #42
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Updated List (there appear to be two different professionally run Avalon muds):

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Achaea</span></span> - Founded: September 1997 - <a href="telnet://achaea.com:23" target='_blank'>telnet://achaea.com:23</a> - http://www.achaea.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Avalon: (TFA)</span></span> - Founded: January 1998, <a href="telnet://130.94.75.70:23" target='_blank'>telnet://130.94.75.70:23</a> - http://www.firstage.net

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Avalon: (TLL)</span></span> - Founded: October 1989, <a href="telnet://avalon-rpg.com:23" target='_blank'>telnet://avalon-rpg.com:23</a> - http://www.avalon-rpg.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Aetolia</span></span> - Founded: October 2001 - <a href="telnet://aetolia.com:23" target='_blank'>telnet://aetolia.com:23</a> - http://www.aetolia.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Dragonrealms</span></span> - Founded: February 1996 - no telnet - http://www.dragonrealms.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Gemstone III</span></span> - Founded: December 1989 - no telnet - http://www.gemstone3.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Imperian</span></span> - Founded: April 2003 - <a href="telnet://208.185.247.28:23" target='_blank'>telnet://208.185.247.28:23</a> - http://www.imperian.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Lusternia</span></span> - Founded: October 2004 - <a href="telnet://lusternia.com:23" target='_blank'>telnet://lusternia.com:23</a> - http://www.lusternia.com

<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Threshold RPG</span></span> - Founded: June 1996 - <a href="telnet://thresholdrpg.com:23" target='_blank'>telnet://thresholdrpg.com:23</a> - http://www.thresholdrpg.com
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 10:46 PM   #43
The_Disciple
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 113
The_Disciple is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2006,14:35)
You really should be ashamed of this statement, and I hope Synozeer sees it and responds accordingly.

You, KaVir, and others are making your hypocrisy very plain to see for everyone.
I'll be completely straight with you, man. I've seen you say pretty interesting/constructive things on some other topics, but on this one, you're just acting like you're trying to toss your name in the hat for the drawing of world's biggest jackass.

If I was a random dude reading the TMS forums for the first time, the impression that this thread would give me about professional mud devs wouldn't be a favorable one. If you can step back from the ****ing contest for five minutes and try to read some of your posts on this thread, I think you'll see that.

That's not to say that other people haven't also been jackasses at times, but it is, as you say, your list, your thread, and your chance to put a professional face on what you do.
The_Disciple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 11:23 PM   #44
kilith
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10
kilith is on a distinguished road
My mud is I would call "Professional" However I do not get paid to produce my mud since it is based of Diku and Merc where then if I got paid to run my mud would be in violation of the Diku license.

So is this professional as in they created the code from scratch or that they put time and effort into their mud?

If it is of the better half of that last sentance then Lands of Chaos would be considered a professional free mud.
kilith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 01:55 AM   #45
Mabus
Member
 
Mabus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 213
Mabus is on a distinguished road
Could add:

Eaxia Online and Haelrahv. They are roleplayers.com's muds.

Account-based.

Gemstone III is now Gemstone IV, just as a correction.
Mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 03:05 AM   #46
Estarra
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Home MUD: Lusternia
Posts: 189
Estarra is on a distinguished road
You might want to check out Elysium, Akanbar and Cardea--I personally don't know anything about them except they have payment options.
Estarra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 03:52 AM   #47
Asaudan
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Asaudan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (kilith @ April 15 2006,00:23)
My mud is I would call "Professional" However I do not get paid to produce my mud since it is based of Diku and Merc where then if I got paid to run my mud would be in violation of the Diku license.

So is this professional as in they created the code from scratch or that they put time and effort into their mud?

If it is of the better half of that last sentance then Lands of Chaos would be considered a professional free mud.
It's not about whether you're a professional; it's about whether you make money from your game or not.
Asaudan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 04:40 AM   #48
Hephos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
Hephos is on a distinguished road
A "professional" mud listing should be one that has games listed that are backed up by a known company rather than individuals that run it as a hobby. Also, IMO "professional" is a bad term.

The idea of making a list based on if "people" gets paid by running it is not very accurate. On most of those muds that actually charge money i'm pretty sure there are lots and lots of non-paid workers that do quite a lot of the maintaining of the games. Are these also professionals? What if there is only one guy getting "paid" and he just pays the game bills and his whole staff is un-paid. Is that game runned professional?

You should not call such a list "professional" rather "commercial". There are a lot of non-commercial muds/games out there that are much more professionally created/maintained than a lof of the muds that produce an income in varying size.

Is "benny the mudadmin" who downloaded diku and made it a pay2play game and now is getting "rich" a professional or is "frodo baggins" who graduated master's degree in computer engineering and created his own game from scratch using innovative features a professional?
Hephos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 04:59 AM   #49
nhl
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 37
nhl is on a distinguished road
I fail to see why people make such a big fuzz about this topic (though I have a theory). Maybe the word "professional" is confusing, though it was explained what it was aiming at. Also, given that the list is moderated, it should keep the worst ripoffs (stock DIKUs with an admin trying to cash in) away from it - can you list a single game on the list which hasn't involved a significant amount of work and dedication from its developer?

In another thread at TMC, I posted a comment about the absurdity of TMC/TMS posters always taking offense at commercial MUDs. I was assured that it wasn't true, but rather only applied to some "unethical" games. The more I see some of these same people now bashing the entire idea of having a list of games that do have a professional, financial backing, the more convinced I am that the MUD community has degenerated into a bunch of grumpy old geeks who refuse to face the facts about how the world and the Internet has changed since the 90s.

Threshold has every right to make such a list, and it will be useful for both players and admins to read it, just as Anitras thread on free MUDs. BatMUD doesn't qualify for either list, but it doesn't mean that I should somehow work against them.
nhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 06:47 AM   #50
Soleil
Member
 
Soleil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 147
Soleil is on a distinguished road
I've been on vacation since Monday so forgive the lateness of this response. I also didn't take a lot of time to read the pages of posts (shame on me! ) so if Medievia has already been mentioned, so be it.

Following this definition from Threshold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by
For the purposes of this list, the operator(s)/owner(s) of the MUD need to be professional game developers whose full time job is to maintain, manage, and develop the MUD. I could perhaps also add that the MUD must be part of a legally incorporated business, but perhaps that is too limiting.
...Medievia is absolutely a professional game. Although Medievia is not as 'professional' as the IR games, Vryce does work on Medievia full time and it is considered his RL job. It is also a legally incorporated business. In addition, we have paid several employees in the past for work done, not to mention the fact that all immortals in Medievia do get 'paid' in donation equipment.

If I were backed into a corner and had to say what Medievia is, I'd say it is a mix of professional and hobbyist. The main owner and developer is running it professionally, but our staff are mostly still volunteers
Soleil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 08:10 AM   #51
cron0s
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 36
cron0s is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Estarra @ April 15 2006,04)
You might want to check out Elysium, Akanbar and Cardea--I personally don't know anything about them except they have payment options.
I thought Cardea had been dead in the water for years since the vortex licensing problems. I just tried to connect and while it is online they have disabled new sign ups, so who knows. It's interesting that both Cardea and Akanbar were started by former players of Avalon, just like Achaea was. I don't know who the creators of Elysium are, but again it has much in common with Avalon. It's a small world.

I also think it is difficult to know whether to include some games or not without input from the owners. It is easy to see if a mud has payment options or not, but only the owner can say whether they actually make enough money for it to be their main income.
cron0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:21 AM   #52
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (nhl @ April 15 2006,11:59)
In another thread at TMC, I posted a comment about the absurdity of TMC/TMS posters always taking offense at commercial MUDs. I was assured that it wasn't true, but rather only applied to some "unethical" games.
And here you can see the truth of that response - there have been several suggestions for creating a commercial mud list.

This list, however, is something completely different. For example:

Skotos: A company producing a range of commercial online games, including some very high-quality muds (both text-based and graphical). The muds are certainly part of their income, but are a minority of the available games, and therefore they can't be classified as "professional" under the definition given here.

World of Warcraft: One of the largest commercial muds, but it only represents a portion of Blizzard's income, and therefore wouldn't be classified as "professional" under the definition given here.

Rekmud: A fairly stock GodWars (and thus Diku) derivative which sold +100 hit/dam items before being shut down for licence violations. The income, small as it was, was still more than the owner would make as a student - and thus this mud would have been classified as "professional" under the definition given here.

Bad Trip: A ROM derivative, and member of the DikuMUD Hall of Shame, the owner sold numerous perks to pay off his debts as well as to fund his drug habit. I believe he was also unemployeed, and as such this mud would be classified as "professional" under the definition given here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
BatMUD doesn't qualify for either list
But it would if you were to get fired from your real job, or if you were to nominate a student as the token "mud owner". In fact, any mud could make the list simply by hiring a student or unemployed person as their mud's "top imm" and then paying them $1 for the job.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:33 AM   #53
Hadoryu
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 102
Hadoryu is on a distinguished road
KaVir, that's why this list, just like Anitra's is moderated. Just like going over to her list and scrounging up every last free MUD out there and suggesting it be listed is out of order, it's out of order to do the equivallent here.
Hadoryu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:55 AM   #54
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 15 2006,16:33)
KaVir, that's why this list, just like Anitra's is moderated.
Anitra's list includes the criteria "The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds" to avoid that sort of issue, while this list does not.

But even if such a criteria were added, it still wouldn't help in regard to the various gaming companies which run pay-to-play muds, yet don't qualify as "professional" because those muds aren't their primary source of income.

Personally I think it's a shame to see some of the top commercial muds operated by professional games companies not being included.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:56 AM   #55
nhl
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 37
nhl is on a distinguished road
I don't see why you have to jump to extremes. I'm pretty sure that both Skotos and WoW would qualify (assuming grahical MMORPG's aren't somehow separated from MUDs, but that's another discussion). Maybe Threshold can confirm that. There's definetly a number of Blizzard employees working fulltime on WoW - at no point was it stated that the MUD has to be the only source of income for the legal entity behind it. I think the same applies also for Skotos - atleast previously Castle Marrach used to be their main game (I have no clue what they are doing nowadays).

Similarily, as this is a moderated list, the other extreme of stockmuds with payment options (not that I really see how they could produce significant revenue) would be filtered out.
nhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 12:16 PM   #56
kilith
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 10
kilith is on a distinguished road
Can I ask how many of these muds are going against certain code licenses?

I know I could never make money off my mud because it is based off a mud that does not allow that. If I could make money off my mud I would. However I do not intend to break the laws like maybe some of these muds have.

WOW, D2, Guild Wars and the like graphical MU* games well they created from scratch and can make the money. LOC is a far cry away from being a stock Duki/Merc mud. Some code is still similar about 90% is not. I work on my mud all the time. I put lots of hours into this mud.
(No I do not have a job because I am a recovering veteran that was injured while training to head to Iraq).
However I do not make a living off my mud. I do put a living into it since nothing I can do else wise

I agree that calling these “professional” MUDs is wrong. I am as professional as any of them and I even give a lot better customer service compared to them other games and hell I do not get paid for it. I pay someone else to host it no matter what I do haha. If I host it myself I am still paying an ISP for an internet connection that is fast enough to host a MU* which IMHO is more then paying someone like Wolfpaw to host it.

By the term of professional yes they make a living off a game. However when it comes to professional service most of them are lacking  

I would call them "commercial" muds for the reason not all of them are in the term "professionally" ran. I am not saying ALL are but some are.
kilith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 12:30 PM   #57
nhl
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 37
nhl is on a distinguished road
To my understanding, not a single one of the MUDs listed are violating (nor has anybody to my understanding claimed) any codebase ToS.

IRE's games (Achaea, Aetolia, Imperian and Lusternia) run on IRE's custom Rapture engine.

Simutronics games (Dragonrealms and Gemstone IV) run to my understanding on their own custom engines. The same is true for Threshold RPG.

The only ones listed that I'm unsure of is the Avalon's, but I suspect that they too run on a custom codebase (atleast it's their claim in TMC).

This debate is somewhat equal to the "free to play versus pay-for-perks" debate, in that it is very difficult to come up with a term that everybody agrees is accurate and that is broad enough to include any serious contenders while narrow enough to keep away the ripoffs.
nhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 10:28 PM   #58
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (kilith @ April 15 2006,13:16)
I agree that calling these “professional” MUDs is wrong. I am as professional as any of them and I even give a lot better customer service compared to them other games and hell I do not get paid for it.
If that is true, then perhaps you run an excellent mud.

But that does not make you a professional, nor does it mean your mud is professionally run.

Why does the difference matter to people? Because it would be very easy for something significant to happen in your life (career, social, or otherwise) that would cause your mud to be an extremely low priority. A professionally run mud where the owner(s) depend upon it for their livelihood is far less subject to that kind of risk.

There are many other reasons that the majority of gamers prefer a professionally run game to a hobby one, but the specifics of that are really not the issue here. This is a list for a specific type of game - a type that many gamers happen to prefer. You don't have to like it, but it is still valuable to many gamers.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 10:46 PM   #59
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2006,10:21)
But it would if you were to get fired from your real job, or if you were to nominate a student as the token "mud owner". In fact, any mud could make the list simply by hiring a student or unemployed person as their mud's "top imm" and then paying them $1 for the job.
KaVir, I hope you enjoy arguing with that straw man.

Is there a single mud on the Professional List that fits your absurd "unemployed scammer" model? Nope. Why? Because since I started the list and this thread, I'm the final arbiter of what qualifies, and thus there is a human being who can make sure there won't be any such mud on the list.

You are nit picking because you know darn well what a "professionally run game" really means, and you know the overwhelming majority of players prefer a professionally run game to a hobbyist game (thus, you don't want to make it easier for them to find professionally run games). It is precisely because of this fact that you keep inventing these silly, bogus examples. You can call them commercial if you want, but I'm calling them professionally run. You can hate it as much as you want, but I really am not concerned with your opinion.

To satisfy the nit pickers, I'll establish the following criterion (subject to change if necessary):

For inclusion on this List:

1) Must be a primarily text based MUD.

2) Must be a legally incoporated business entity.

3) The primary owner(s) or operator(s) must be paid full time to work on the MUD.

4) Must be listed on TopMudSites.

5) Cannot use or have ever used DIKU or any other DIKU-derived codebase. (Why? Because of the list's presence in this forum community. The DIKU issue is too contentious. If any MUD on this list uses or ever used any DIKU derivative, it would completely destroy the list's utility due to the thread being even more mired in flames.)
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 11:28 PM   #60
Lark
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 46
Lark is on a distinguished road
Hey, c'mon now, add Medievia, too. It's not nice to start a club and then leave out somebody. Very mean.

And you should throw all those domain names and sites to the first post, make it a little more like a sticky thread (though you risk the chance of confusing the reader into believing in some sort of time-paradox). Donut moderators aside, there may be folks who'll want to see this side of the fence, so I say go for it.

I know I've been clamoring for a distinction between the two, so hopefully this'll speed things up.
Lark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


MUDs run by Professional Game Developers - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Text MUD developers acquired! the_logos MUD Announcements 1 08-11-2006 03:43 PM
Developers Blog Baram MUD Announcements 2 04-29-2006 04:52 PM
CalaisMUD seeking Lib Developers! (LPC) calaismud Advertising for Staff 0 06-24-2004 04:46 PM
Professional, Dedicated, Results Oriented... Azeroth Advertising for Staff 0 12-10-2003 03:49 PM
AIME Developers NEEDED!!! darmir Advertising for Staff 1 03-21-2003 12:28 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014