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Old 04-28-2006, 02:42 AM   #121
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I found this at AotT's main page, under the 'Charges' section on the left. Seems to check out just fine, at least as far as being commercial and that deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gameplay Charges
Age of the Throne is a Pay-to-Play Game. Your monies are invested back into Age of the Throne. Please support Age of the Throne by Subscribing! We use the money to:
Pay Programmers to expand the Gameworld
Pay Server and Bandwidth Charges.
Pay for Advertising Banners.


New Users
When a new character is created it is credited with 10 hours of free play time, once this time is up the player can decide to quit that character without further cost or to continue playing that character by typing the SUBSCRIBE command.


Charging for use of Age of the Throne

PayPal Payments

You can use your PayPal account to draft from your credit card or checking account to subscribe to the Age of the Throne.

It's here if you need to see it for yourself.

http://www.aott.com/site/main.htm
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:00 AM   #122
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I can't find any reference that AotT would have any full-paid staff. Last night, when I checked out their website, there were a total of 4 people playing. This morning there is none. While amount of player isn't a criteria for exclusion, it seems to me that with such a playercount and at 12 USD per month per player, it would not be possible to sustain full-time paid staff.
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:35 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 28 2006,03:03)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Interesting.  Tell me, if I were to procure a copy of Achaea and use it to run my own mud, would you reserve judgement until the issue was resolved in the courts?
No, I wouldn't. However, I also wouldn't expect other people to trust that I, the aggrieved party (well, Iron Realms), am right just because I claim I am.
Of course - but supposing you were to have made the following public:

1) A fully disclosed line-by-line diff comparison of several thousands lines of code, which showed vast quantities of completely identical code,

2) A summary of the comparisons, including points of particular interest (such as your own name in the comments) and an overall originality percentage of each file,

3) A copy of a fax which I'd signed under penalty of perjury, confirming that the code you'd examined was indeed what I was using.

Now let's assume that the code itself has been made available for download for anyone wishing to confirm for themselves the accuracy of your comparisons, and that your findings have also been publically acknowledged by several other well-known mud developers.

We'll also assume that I don't even bother denying that my mud was based on your code, but instead simply respond that I've changed lots of it, and that my lawyers have said there's nothing you can do about it.

Are you still telling me, honestly, that you would expect other people to ignore the issue until it had been settled in the courts?

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In this case, the only people we -ever- hear from are parties that are irrelevant to the matter. It's not any of the DIKU authors on these boards attacking Medievia. It's third parties.
Yet the violation of licences is something that affects all mud developers (well, at least all those who release their own code, or base their work upon the code of others) - I've had to deal with the whole "Medievia do it, so why can't I?" crowd on a number of occasions when people have violated my licences.

Perhaps it's just another difference between the commercial and non-commercial muds. The latter can't generally afford to take legal action, so we stick up for each other by drawing attention to those who steal from other mud developers.
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:12 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 28 2006)
Perhaps it's just another difference between the commercial and non-commercial muds.  The latter can't generally afford to take legal action, so we stick up for each other by drawing attention to those who steal from other mud developers.
There's 1708 MUDs currently listed in TMC. Of those, I would guess around 1500-1600 (or more) are non-commercial. Yet it's only a handful of people (the same ones that have been at it for years) who "stick up for each other" (stick up for whom, DIKU?) in this case. So don't even try to portray this as somekind of typical trait for non-commercial MUDs versus commercial ones - the absolute majority of the MUD admins couldn't care less about this dispute, and the same is even more true for players.
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:43 AM   #125
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There are many of us who feel the way Kavir does. The difference is we remain quiet and try to avoid posting on these forums.

My guess is your jumping to one helluva bad conclusion saying the absolute majority of mud owners could care a less about this situation. We do care, there just isn't much we can contribute to the conversation. Ofcourse some care more than others. But you 'should' be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks what they have done or continue doing is morally correct.

Proof of this is the fact that the absolute majority of mud owners abide by their mud licenses.


Enjoy,
Splork
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:28 AM   #126
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I think a reposting of the criteria would be helpful. I am not entirely sure whether you are defining professional as someone who is paid to work on the mud, or works full time on it, or if it is their only income, or their main income, etc.

If you mean only those muds who have at least one person working on it as their full time paid job, I don't see how you can have a complete list without input from the mud owners themselves. For example, you have Avalon, the First Age listed, yet having played it and seen how small the playerbase is, I can't see how it makes much of a living for anyone. Unfortunately only the owner of the mud can say that for certain.

I think the list is valuable, yet if you use criteria which are hard for an outsider to judge, particularly those involving possibly sensitive financial information, you will find it difficult to include many muds other than those run by yourself and other regular contributors to this forum.
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:28 AM   #127
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If you want to discuss whether or not Medievia deserves to be advertised on this list, feel free to do so here. If you want to discuss the legal issues surrounding the plagiarism/license issues, please take it over to the Legal Issues forum.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:48 PM   #128
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Hmm. Well, in the above post they do mention hiring programmers, but yeah, they make it sound like it might be more like 'contracting' them instead.

I think as long as someone had the qualifications to get paid for it, you can still call it professional. Sometimes it's cheaper just to have work done by the piece instead of giving someone a salary and hoping for the best.

It's your thread, though, do your thing. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the Medievia thing. I apologize to Soleil for poking a touchy subject and bringing it back to debate.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:30 PM   #129
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No need to apologize, Lark, I appreciate your effort/support.

Again I need to ask.. What is the purpose of this list?  Just for the sake of these forums or will this list be made a 'sticky' or put somewhere else?  In either case, if Aristotle says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
My reason is solely the desire to avoid the type of flamefest that is already starting (the whole DIKU/Medievia debate) before they are even listed. Of course, if the flamewar happens anyway, maybe I might as well put them on the list. My personal preference would be to list them, out of a sense of accuracy, but I must admit that the nature of this medium (TMS forums) makes me hesitant.
Why not just include us anyways?  The flamewar is already going on in this thread and will continue I'm sure if you do or don't list us.  If you were to 'sticky' the list, can't the moderators make it so no responses can be made?  I'm sure I've seen that done on other forums.  And in addition, if this list is to be exported somewhere else (not sure where that would be), just a listing per se would not lead to even further discussion of the issue if the people moderating that list didn't want any further discussion.

The bottom line, as I see it, and as I've said before, is that Medievia isn't listed because we are Medievia.  And as many people have now stated, we ARE a professional/commercial game and we SHOULD be listed.  Without us, the list would be incomplete.  We get upwards of 400 people online at peak times.  Having a list of large/commercial/professional MUDs without Medievia is an invalid list.  If you are aiming for a true list of MUDs that are run professionally, Medievia should be there.  Period.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:41 PM   #130
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To those that don't care a hoot about ethics and moral, it may be hard to grasp that other people still do. It's like trying to explain the concept of music to someone who is tone deaf, or the difference between red and blue to someone who is colour blind.

To those of us that do care, it seems natural that most decent people share our belief, although they aren't usually very vocal about it. It's what's known as the silent majority.

It's no coincidence that most fee muds still honour the Diku licence.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:46 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Emil @ April 28 2006,15:41)
To those that don't care a hoot about ethics and moral, it may be hard to grasp that other people still do. It's like trying to explain the concept of music to someone who is tone deaf, or the difference between red and blue to someone who is colour blind.

To those of us that do care, it seems natural that most decent people share our belief, although they aren't usually very vocal about it. It's what's known as the silent majority.

It's no coincidence that most fee muds still honour the Diku licence.
Edit: I just started a new thread in a more appropriate forum. The link is here: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....1&t=491

--matt
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:09 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
To those that don't care a hoot about ethics and moral, it may be hard to grasp that other people still do.
Giving a hoot about ethics has nothing to do with this list.  As Aristotle stated previously,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
My reason is solely the desire to avoid the type of flamefest that is already starting (the whole DIKU/Medievia debate) before they are even listed.
its not so much the claims about Medievia's 'license violations' as the reason we aren't listed, but about the ensuing flamewar if we were listed (which is still going on anyways).  

AND, as Valg stated, arguments/discussion about Medievia's legality, ethics, morals, etc are better served on the Legal forum.  

Moderator?
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Old 04-30-2006, 10:29 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cron0s @ April 28 2006,09:28)
I think a reposting of the criteria would be helpful.
Good idea.

For inclusion on this List:

1) Must be a primarily text based MUD.

2) Must be a legally incoporated business entity.

3) The primary owner(s) or operator(s) must be paid full time to work on the MUD.

4) Must be listed on TopMudSites.

5) Cannot use or have ever used DIKU or any other DIKU-derived codebase due to the inflammatory nature of this issue. (Criterion #5 is still under consideration).
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Old 05-01-2006, 08:27 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 28 2006,15:46)
Edit: I just started a new thread in a more appropriate forum. The link is here: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....1&t=491

--matt
I forgot to say: thanks for doing that.
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