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Old 03-16-2006, 01:19 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Mar. 16 2006,01:50)
Laughable, considering it is widely known on TMS and TMC that you've threatened to pull advertising/listing if changes are made that do not allow IRE to advertise itself as free in the same way. You can't really say something and then pretend it didn't happen. I mean, you can certainly try, but I suppose us "crusaders" (funny, considering what I do) will just remind forum users of your open manipulation of site administration to get what you want.
So, I assume you have some evidence to back up your accusation. Let's see it. My guess? You're just another schmuck making another baseless attack. Quite honestly, if I have ever made that kind of threat, I don't recall it.

You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You can't really say something and then pretend it didn't happen.
No, you're right, I can't. You sound pretty sure. Show me the evidence. Show us all. Embarass me.

You just made a serious accusation. Assuming it's not true (my memory isn't perfect, certainly, but I am fairly sure I have never made such a threat), you've made a statement you have no reason to believe is anything but false (as evidenced by the fact that you have no evidence), with malicious intent and intent to harm my and Iron Realms' reputation. That is libel, and that is illegal.

It never fails to amaze that some people will sink to these depths.

Now, if you actually have real evidence I will apologize profusely to you on these very forums, because I'm happy to admit I'm wrong when convincingly demonstrated as such.

I hope that if you're unable to show that what you're accusing us of is indispurtably true, you will extend the same courtesy of a profuse apology to me.

--matt
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:26 AM   #42
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You know, why is it some of you can't accept any interpretation of anything but your own? I mean that seriously. I'm willing to accept Valg calling Carrion Fields 'professional', for instance, even though according to my definition, being good at something doesn't make you professional (I'm a good skier, but that doesn't make me a professional unless I do it for money, in my opinion). Why is it that you're so hostile to the idea that the same word can have multiple meanings, especially when, as I've pointed out, the way we use it is pretty darn standard?

Seriously, can any of you give me a reasonable, non-hostile answer to that?

--matt
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:40 AM   #43
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I've never cared for pay-to-play muds, but then that's just not my style. Clearly there are people who don't mind, otherwise they wouldn't still be around.


What I do mind is people bitching and moaning back and forth at eachother for the same damn thing over, and over, and over again. My God, people, don't you realize you're fighting about the exact same thing in every single one of the forums on this board?

Grow up. If Matt wants to run his mud for money, it's none of your business.

Matt, you really need to stop stooping to their level by fighting back with them.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:53 AM   #44
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quote=SirTank,Mar. 15 2006,18:38][/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by

I must say, his reply was on topic. I also foud it quite ironic to see this post on a supposid "site for free MUDs".

Really? Which site did I post on that is for free MUDs?
Right, that's why I used the word supposid, I wasn't trying to engage in the free vs not free debate of listing on TMS or TMC. Rather your rude-ass post that did infact insult me, and possibly many others, which I was mearly trying to point out. I was defending the reply to which you claimed was not on-topic, for futher proof of this....

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Originally Posted by
We advertise ourselves as free to play...
I choose to think of them all as customers and treat them as such...
And again I'll post the webster's definition of what you call ALL your players "a person or business that purchases a commodity or service". So do you see, by your own words, you come off as saying two contradictory things. I'm not here to argue with you, but just point out the irony and humor in your posts. If you can't step back and look at what yer typing and laugh a bit, well, that's too bad. I am

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Old 03-16-2006, 02:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Mar. 16 2006,00:39)
Matt - the only people who ever support you are IRE staff/players.
Umm ... I'm neither, and I agree with/support him.  And there are more than a few of us who do, we just USUALLY don't get involved in your stupid BS postings about this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
You have a lot of people from different MUDs who are against you. I have played a lot of MUDs(an insane amount of varying MUDs, actually), and IRE is largely disliked - Achaea in particular. It is not fictional, and it is not a "fringe minority". It is the general perception of IRE by a lot of people. A lot
Well in (roughly) the last 4 months on this site only, I count only about 18 different accounts posting on topics berating IRE about "free to play", agreeing with you.  Now, as a proclaimed professional and consultant, you MUST be aware that 18 people does not a "lot of people" make.
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Old 03-16-2006, 02:43 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (SirTank @ Mar. 16 2006,01:53)
And again I'll post the webster's definition of what you call ALL your players "a person or business that purchases a commodity or service".
As you used it, the following definitons from Merriam Webster.

customer: "a person or business that purchases a commodity or service"

purchase: "to obtain by paying money or its equivalent, or to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice"

Seems to me that's what everyone does who plays any game, even all of the so-called "free to play" ones.  After all, everyone is sacrificing their time and doing labor to play any game.  Seems like a good professional way to me to treat the people that come play your game, whether they pay money or not.

So what's your point SirTank, how is he saying two contradictory things with that statement?
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Old 03-16-2006, 04:42 AM   #47
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To find the information to show you(Matt) that you did indeed insinuate such a threat on these boards, and to show "Lanthum" that there are plenty more than 18 accounts supporting what is snobbed at as a "crusade", I will have to pour over hundred(s) of pages of previous threads... I'll try to hit the sack and wake up and do so. Though why I'm humoring you, I don't know, it's a commonly enough mentioned fact on both TMS and TMC about your threats, Matt - even finding the post, all you will do is try to twist your own words around to sound non-threatening. It's what you do best. I guess you're just a schmuck magnet though, since so many of us "schmucks" seem to think you are a shady dealer, Matt. Of course all attacks against you must be baseless - you're only, what... the first or second most ethically criticized admin on these forums. It's probably just a "schmuck" conspiracy.

Again, I'll point out that any admin or company who has to fight as hard as you do to twist something into the most positive(but not most accurate) spin on your game/ethics is enough to show the general public just how suspect you are. I think most people who read these posts and are not connected to you in some sort of positive way are likely able to see(if they can stomach reading all of these threads) how snide and condescending you are to the rest of the community, and how self-serving and egocentric you are about your own company.

But to stay on topic, beyond defending myself... I again congratulate Iron Realms Entertainment on their improvement. It is certainly beneficial for their customers to have more flexible payment options for IRE games.
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:15 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
you've made a statement you have no reason to believe is anything but false (as evidenced by the fact that you have no evidence), with malicious intent and intent to harm my and Iron Realms' reputation. That is libel, and that is illegal.
Well, actually... you'd have to prove malicious intent(which is not the case, I merely am encouraging you to act more responsibly within the community), worth of civil damages(as libel is a civil suite only), and that what I am saying is published false(truly not likely to be proven, as forum messages can be edited by their writer at any time, and I could easily argue that you simply could have found the posts in question and removed/edited the targetted material). Never-the-less, to humor you, I will search for the specific post that I remember seeing not long after I joined this forum.

And if you are going the route of using the forum's "terms of agreement" against me as a non-civil and more theoretical form of libel, I'll just throw out the fact that you break the terms all the time. Example; defamation by way of public insult/bashing, i.e. calling someone a schmuck. This, amongst many other condescensions originating from you.

Don't try to get technical and/or legal. It's not only pointless - it's kind of sad.
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:16 AM   #49
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I just wanted to add...

Its the typical "Lets hate the big-guys syndrome", where everyone hates the bigger, more successful company.
For example, Microsoft... (Everyone liked Microsoft when it came out... now everyone seems to hate it to its core)
...And now Google, where issues have arisen with how they have dealt with the whole google.cn thing, and not to mention the possible privacy violations.
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:23 AM   #50
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Its the typical "Lets hate the big-guys syndrome", where everyone hates the bigger, more successful company.
Not true - other larger, more successful games are not being criticized for their ethics in these forums. More than IRE's, I disapprove of other models such as Simutronic's. I don't openly attack their ethics here because they aren't twisting commonly recognizable ideas and phrases to make them seem like something they aren't within the community, and because they don't openly condescend MUDs on this site who choose not to attempt to squeeze money out of their players for benefits.

Matt's attitude, threats, condescension, and questionable ethics are why he(and by default, Achaea and IRE) are commonly targetted.
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:00 AM   #51
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Here's a quote from you, Matt, in a thread earlier this year(January).


Quote:
Originally Posted by
I.E., some of us really are just approaching the problem from a logical perspective, with no hidden motives and only our own sensibilities/opnions.

Logical perspective: You get more when you contribute more. That's mine.

Illogical perspective: You get more when you contribute less. That's yours.

Well, continue arguing all you want for a list change that is harmful to the site owner (splitting the list would alienate the people (like me) whose muds contribute the most to the site and thus cost him advertising dollars due to lost traffic), would result in less outgoing traffic to all MUDs, and simply makes no sense.

I know Synozeer is too savvy to hamstring his own site that way.

--matt

This is an obvious implication that if Syno were to create two lists(in this argument, the pushed idea was to seperate the top MUD lists into added categories of "commercial" and "non-commercial"), that you would be "alienated" and pull your traffic, thus causing him to lose "advertising dollars".

Your subtle threat/bullying is evident by anyone who really wants to read into what you said(though I'm sure now you'll try to twist your own meaning a different way).

You often speak for Syno, as if you partly owned this MUD. Why does Syno put up with you? He must be "too savvy to hamstring his own site" by "alienating" someone who paid him so much money and traffic. Despite the fact that IRE games would still appear at the top of the Commercial MUDlists in the old proposed split list idea(therefor not costing you rank, and allowing TMS users to search through new, more specified categories), you still felt the necessity to stress that being forced to put your games into such a distinction would alienate you.

There were other such things said on this forum and TMC, but I really don't need any more than that quote to show what I needed to. I think I'll get some sleep now ... g'night.
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Old 03-16-2006, 07:41 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Lanthum @ Mar. 16 2006,03:43)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (SirTank @ Mar. 16 2006,01:53)
And again I'll post the webster's definition of what you call ALL your players "a person or business that purchases a commodity or service".
As you used it, the following definitons from Merriam Webster.

customer: "a person or business that purchases a commodity or service"

purchase: "to obtain by paying money or its equivalent, or to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice"

Seems to me that's what everyone does who plays any game, even all of the so-called "free to play" ones. After all, everyone is sacrificing their time and doing labor to play any game. Seems like a good professional way to me to treat the people that come play your game, whether they pay money or not.

So what's your point SirTank, how is he saying two contradictory things with that statement?
Wow, thats's a great example of a logical fallacy. Not only that, you are confusing what goes on in the game, to what is necessary to play the game.

I am not here to argue weather or not it is free to play, only the irony of calling players of a free game, customers, which..oh god i'm not repeating that crap again.

Anyways, you do realize, I hope, that by the definition of purchase it is stated that it can be via money or equiv. which referrs to any other economic system such as barter, indenture , slave etc. All brought to bear from the individual themself. I highly doubt anyone puts their body in labor or danger in order to engage in a MUD. Unless of course maybe someone goes and mows Matt's lawn or something and gets a few whatever super power sword sharpeners.

next time you reply, try not to commit such a blatant fallacy by using a definition to negate a definition of a condition, especially a bad one that no longer relates to the intent.
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:56 AM   #53
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Logos,

With all due respect, you should learn to just let threads/arguments like this one go.

I'm sure it feels like you're just defending yourself, but it comes off like one guy insulting another and the second guy responding by hosing down random schoolchildren with an uzi. You don't do a service to yourself or your games by sinking below the level of people taking shots at you.

We can argue about whether it is in some objective sense sinking or not, if you like. I'm just telling you how it comes off to me.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:41 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Mar. 15 2006,19:37)
I didn't insult other MUDs. I insulted Aarn, who launched an unprovoked attack against me. I don't care about "better". Better is completely in the eye of the beholder. What I AM certain of is that the Carrion Fields developers are the single most aggressively jerkish developers I've ever encountered, at least judging by Valg and Aarn. The kind of unprovoked attacks they make would get them banned from any game developer's chapter.
1) You routinely insult other MUDs, singly and in groups. You insult staff, players, and anyone who disagrees with you on a forum. You do not have a leg to stand on regarding this topic. I would provide citations, as I have on previous occasions, but other posters already have. Heck ,you insulted me in a thread I haven't posted in, in the very post you complain about people insulting people. It's hypocrisy of the highest order, and it's the kind of amateurish behavior that drags down the discussion threads.

2) There are a number of games with larger playerbases than Carrion Fields. Feel free to search, but you won't find me being critical of any of the other big players besides IRE and Medievia, including games far larger than yours.

As an example from this site, I wouldn't play Aardwolf-- I prefer roleplaying games with more tightly-focused themes and PvP action. But a lot of people do like Aardwolf, even more than the number than like Carrion Fields. Where are the "anti-Aardwolf" threads? There aren't any, because Aardwolf handles themselves more professionally than you do.

My specific problem with IRE stems from misleading advertising. I am aware you can legally get away with the term "free", just like you can legally get away with a lot of shady things in the world of advertising. My stance remains that TMS/TMC/etc. are under no obligation to label your games "free", and would better serve their customers with more accurate descriptions of the games that use their site, regardless of the threats you have made on this matter. Your game is most accurately described as "May pay for perks", and operates under a distinctly different business model than the many "free" MUDs that use this site.

My specific problem with Medievia deals with intellectual property theft and plagiarism, charges which are well- documented by independent code audits.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:20 PM   #55
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Well, actually... you'd have to prove malicious intent(which is not the case, I merely am encouraging you to act more responsibly within the community)
I don't have to prove it, just demonstrate it. Given your history of posts slamming us, that part is easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
, worth of civil damages(as libel is a civil suite only),
You mean trying to damage a business on a community forum where the business gets a lot of its business from? Easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Example; defamation by way of public insult/bashing, i.e. calling someone a schmuck. This, amongst many other condescensions originating from you.
Insults like 'schmuck' are not libel as they do not assert a statement of fact. You may call me a schmuck or an asshole or whatever all you like. What you may not do is make false assertions presented as statements of fact.

Again, I'm waiting for your proof. You made a factual statement for which I'm guessing you have not a shred of proof. You claim you're right. Show us the proof. What you posted a couple posts above is just me complimenting Synozeer on his acumen, which was a genuine compliment.

Show us the proof, shut up, or continue to libel us. Your choice.

--matt
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:32 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Mar. 16 2006,12:41)
Your game is most accurately described as "May pay for perks", and operates under a distinctly different business model than the many "free" MUDs that use this site.
Our games are most accurately labeled as "Free to play." If you want to distinguish your games, come up with a label to distinguish yours. YOU'RE the one who wants to claim a perfectly valid phrase or word for your personal meaning. If you want to distinguish yourself, label your games as "Free, with limited option for money to affect gameplay."

--matt
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Lanthum @ Mar. 16 2006,03:32)
Well in (roughly) the last 4 months on this site only, I count only about 18 different accounts posting on topics berating IRE about "free to play", agreeing with you.  Now, as a proclaimed professional and consultant, you MUST be aware that 18 people does not a "lot of people" make.
Perhaps they are too busy actually playing the games that TMS promotes to care about it?
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by
Well,continue arguing all you want for a list change that is harmful to the site owner (splitting the list would alienate the people (like me) whose muds contribute the most to the site and thus cost him advertising dollars due to lost traffic), would result in less outgoing traffic to all MUDs, and simply makes no sense.

I know Synozeer is too savvy to hamstring his own site that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Mar. 16 2006,13:20)
Show us the proof. What you posted a couple posts above is just me complimenting Synozeer on his acumen, which was a genuine compliment.

Show us the proof, shut up, or continue to libel us. Your choice.

--matt
Fat Tony, is that you?! You know how I said, two years ago, that I was sure you were smart enough never to return to this town--to my town?

Well, it wasn't a compliment.

Bang.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:06 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (SirTank @ Mar. 16 2006,07:41)
Wow, thats's a great example of a logical fallacy. Not only that, you are confusing what goes on in the game, to what is necessary to play the game.

I highly doubt anyone puts their body in labor ... in order to engage in a MUD.

next time you reply, try not to commit such a blatant fallacy by using a definition to negate a definition of a condition, especially a bad one that no longer relates to the intent.
Wow, those words are a great example of dribble that is really saying nothing SirTank.

What I said is not a logical fallacy. It is a very honest and serious reason to call them ALL customers, as Matt said. And it's the very reason people use the pay-for-perks model. Because while some people sacrifice their time, and yes, labor to obtain status and ability within the game, others sacrifice money. And if you are trying to be professional, you can't choose what to call some of them, while having another term to call the others. So Matt chooses to call all of them "customer". All very well within the scope of the definition of all of those words.

As a side note - this is exactly what I did and most business owners do. When I owned a Sports and Gaming Card shop, I called everyone who came in the door a "customer" - even the kids who only came in to play around and NEVER spent a dime in my store.

It's also what most undergraduate and graduate level business and advertising classes teach. The use of the word customer to everyone - even non-paying people - not only is technically correct (because people have to sacrifice something: money, time, effort/labor, etc), it makes them feel important. It makes "non-paying customers" think they will get the same level of service as someone who pays.

But from your last post, I doubt you have ever taken a graduate (or even undergraduate) level advertising or business class, and thus I doubt you will be able to agree with it.
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Old 03-16-2006, 02:10 PM   #60
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Show us the proof, shut up, or continue to libel us. Your choice.
I showed the proof, refer to my previous post - you can claim whatever angle that you want, but as Asaudan so humorously already stated... it is obvious to the other people of the forum that you have made underhanded threats to site admins. I have no need to show more proof; my above post's quote's insinuations are not difficult to comprehend.

As far as libel goes - I double-dog dare you to take this forum into a civil suite. It's really sad, because not only do you not have a leg to stand on, your throwing out legal terms that you obviously barely understand is funny. In a sad way.

I could counter more of your points, like your inability to distinguish the difference between libel and defamation, but meh. Before I even got a chance to continue to criticize you, Valg, Disciple, and Asauden already took most of the rest of the words out of my mouth.
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