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Old 09-07-2003, 06:07 PM   #1
vmaster218
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Exclamation

A few weeks back, Achaea: Dreams of Divine Lands was surpassed as #1 mud on topmudsites.com by Magica Materia.

We won't deny it.

We freaked.

Spam flooded every private and public channel there was, it was pandemonium (a few even had their tongues divinely removed)

Now, if you'd look back on the listings, we obviously bounced back, and, noteably, pretty dang fast.

So let #1-aspiring Muds be wary...your fight is going to be tough. To get Top spot, you're going to have to want it BAD. Rally together your best! Achaea's not going anywhere without a fight.

Hersheys! (hugs n' kisses)
Achaea's Madame Butterfly
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Old 09-07-2003, 07:57 PM   #2
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Erm, you mean you actually believe being #1 is synonymous with a valued achievement? That it entails a sense of righteous accomplishment rather than the perverse satisfaction of a self-serving marketing agenda, with integrity being a mute point..

I find it disappointing to hear a proud boast made by a game that features a blatant oxymoron in its listing details.

Definition of free – unrestricted; exempt from impositions, duties or fees, hindrance, gratis.

Definition of commercial – pert to commerce; mercantile; buying and selling.

Its either completely free or it isn’t, free players can either compete on equal terms with paying players or they cannot, players either have full access to the game without hindrance or they do not. You cant have your cake and charge people to eat it.

If wanting it BAD enough means being economical with the truth or writing explanatory headers that are blatantly designed to mislead then I guess I will never want it BAD enough.

I would still like to see a separate listing for commercial muds. I still remember numerous instances of voting incentives being given to players in the past, by top rated muds. I still believe that a truthful and accurate portrayal of information would be of greater benefit to visitors and ALL supporters of the site than actively supporting a fallacy.
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Old 09-07-2003, 09:29 PM   #3
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Being #1 on TMS is like China saying, "We're the greatest nation that existed! Just look at how many people we have!"

If you believe that statement, you'll believe the first post in this string.

Personally, I too agree that free means that something is absolutely free of any commercial options. I tried Achaea last year. I wasn't as impressed as a #1 standing would seem to suggest. I've seen better on 100% free MUDs (and for that matter, I've seen better on commercial MUDs too).

That's not to say Achaea's total crap or anything. Of the 800+ MUDs I've tried over the last six years, it's easily in the Top 100. But let's be honest. TMS rankings don't necessarily indicate quality. I've seen some awesome MUDs that I've never seen make the list but were great nonetheless. Does a #1 ranking (or for that matter, any ranking) indicate quality? Not really. Popularity, perhaps, but not really quality. Just something to keep in mind.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 09-07-2003, 10:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Sep. 07 2003,21:29)
Being #1 on TMS is like China saying, "We're the greatest nation that existed!  Just look at how many people we have!"
The fact that Achaea has "won" over 25 continuous competitions indicates popularity, though it does not indicate that Achaea is the most popular mud. The most popular mud is Lineage. The most popular text mud is either Gemstone III or Dragonrealms. Quality is entirely in the eye of the beholder, of course.

--matt
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Old 09-07-2003, 10:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Fharron @ Sep. 07 2003,19:57)
Definition of commercial – pert to commerce; mercantile; buying and selling.
.
So I guess Google and Yahoo aren't commercial enterprises, since they are free to use? (Though, like Achaea, they charge for extra features.)

--matt
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Old 09-07-2003, 10:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Fharron @ Sep. 07 2003,16:57)
Its either completely free or it isn’t, free players can either compete on equal terms with paying players or they cannot, players either have full access to the game without hindrance or they do not. You cant have your cake and charge people to eat it.
Consider going into your nearest car dealership and asking for the keys to last years model. Imagine being given this car to drive around for free, but if you wanted to upgrade to the new model, with the CD player and A/C, you'd have to pay a few bucks.  You would go around telling your friends you got a free car!

Now, how is this different from Achaea's business model? When its taken out of context of the MUD genre, one so flooded with crap free games that most decent games would not be commercially viable for their creators, I  see no significant difference with the car metaphor.

Before you go and complain that its not fair that people with money get to play more, I would like to point out a few things:
1) Money is no more fair a commodity than time, intelligence, or charisma, and those are all things that usually determine power in a MUD.
2) Don't like it don't play it. You have a vast array of free dikus to play. If you notice the significant increase in quality that tends to go with a commercial game, then unfortunately you have to wake up to the realities of the capitalist market.

- Ryan
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Old 09-07-2003, 11:26 PM   #7
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First, I've played Achaea. Interesting MU*, thought out, well built, etc...just wasnt *right* for me <shrugs> Doesnt mean I'm going to trash it, so Admins reading this, dont whip out the Zippos yet

Sure Achaea says it's free and granted people who pay get some quirks but :
1. be glad you can at least play for free
2. the people that pay are usually the people who are going to be there for a long while anyways.

Ever buy a computer game that has an expansion pack sold seperatly? Well, that's what Achaea is akin to in a sense. You play for free, you have the base game. The people who pay (thus paying for staffing bills, server bills, etc..) are the ones that bought the expansion pack. Granted, if EverCrack ever had an EQ Gold Special Edition version, their boards would be flooded with whining about how people that went out and bought the $49.99 expansion pack shouldnt be allowed to play, yadda yadda yadda.

Sure, you want to compare the listing with dictionary terms, but in the year I've been here, I've seen the same argument happen about the phrase 'most realistic' etc or 'RP enforced'. In a few months someone will no doubt post a thread about how 'unique races' cant include humans, elves, or dwarves or 'classes' cant be a race like feline, orc, etc (though *if* you remember 5th grade biology, 'class' is a part of a species' race..Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, etc..)

Granted, the humble person wouldnt have posted a boast like the opening post, but then again, it is in a way a challange to all the other MU*s to maybe get on the ball and try to vie for the TMS #1 spot. I mean if Magica Materia did it once, maybe they can do it again..or maybe even one of the 81-100 MU*s might make it (what? dont you ever bet on the longshot at the races? Makes it more fun. )

Anyhoo..dont slam Achaea just because your MU*, whether you're an Imp there or a player, isnt in the #1 spot. If you think that the spot is the 'be all to end all' here, then fine, do something about it. Improve your own MU*, do something unique, do some advertising (player pages are free and getting them onto some search engines are free so dont use the "We dont have the money" excuse. )
If you have a beef with the Top 10 ask yourself these questions :
1. are you helping to improve your own MU* to make it more popular without making Uber-newbies every 30 seconds?
2. Is your MU* listed in more than 2 MU* listing sites like TMS and TMC?
3. Is any part of yuor MU* found in any search inquiries in any search engine (yes, some people do find MU*s that way in a round about manner..might be looking for pics of orcs and find say Midgaard MUD <a fake made up MUD, it isnt real>)
4. If a player comes up with an interesting, do-able idea, does your staff listen and actually ponder it or blow it off because its just a player?
5. What's the quality of your MU*? All 100% stock with typoes or something interesting and possibly new?

Achaea has done alot of that. it's not their corporate sponsership, it's not players paying to play, it is because the staff got off their duff and made the MU* a place that's different from all the other 800+ MU*s out there.

Ok..my 2 Euro Pennies worth.

Sorry for the semi-long post.
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Old 09-07-2003, 11:27 PM   #8
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I wouldn't call having players click links to vote for your mud a fight. More like a contest for the players who want to see their mud on the top 20, or as you have it stay #1. It's simply advertising. Have at it.
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Old 09-08-2003, 01:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fharron
I would still like to see a separate listing for commercial muds. I still remember numerous instances of voting incentives being given to players in the past, by top rated muds.
I'm not sure what the connection between the two statements is.  Is it that all the commerical muds have offered incentives or that no free games have?  How will making a seperate list for commercial games address your problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I still believe that a truthful and accurate portrayal of information would be of greater benefit to visitors and ALL supporters of the site than actively supporting a fallacy.
I believe you would be better off accepting the information portrayed instead of creating a nonexistant fallacy.  The list ranks muds according to how many votes they have received, it has never done anything more than that no matter what people wish it to represent.
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Old 09-08-2003, 01:40 AM   #10
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[quote= (Tavish @ Sep. 08 2003,01:17)]
Quote:
The list ranks muds according to how many votes they have received, it has never done anything more than that no matter what people wish it to represent.
That is exactly right. It measures precisely what it measures and nothing else.

Being ranked #1 gets us a lot of newbies so we put effort into motivating our playerbase to vote. Personally, I'd like to see other muds besides just Materia Magica up there with a lot of votes. I feel that getting people to vote benefits everyon Every mud has players that are a bit bored of it and looking for something new. Why not encourage people to get exposed to other muds (and vice versa) in the hopes that players will move from a mud they're bored of to a new mud they can play?

--matt
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:21 AM   #11
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Silly topic being rehashed. It's deja vu all over again!

It is mathematically impossible for most games to ever be in the top spot. Further, it is mathematically impossible for most games to ever be in the top five.

Now mind you, I never made it past Algebra I in high school, because I got a D in it and figured learning R-Basic on a teletype machine and dummy terminal would be a good substitute for my senior math requirement (got a C in that, yay!.

But we're talking basic math here, so let's take a look:

Games A, B, and C each have over 1000 players. If each of those players votes only ONCE per 24 hour period, instead of twice, then A, B, and C will be in the tip 3 spots even if games D, E, and F, each of whom have less than 500 players, vote twice.

That's the math. Judging solely on the random games I've checked info on with this website's info options, I would have to guess that a healthy 80% of all games listed have an average player base of under 500. This means that only the top 20% have a *chance* of being listed on the top 3 spots. The only way those top 3 will be replaced by other games, is if they cease to vote at all.

Fair? Who the heck knows. And honestly, who the heck cares.
It isn't a contest. It's just window dressing.
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:43 AM   #12
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I've always said that this "top" list would be way more interesting if the current counts of a game when the list is reset is used as a "drawback" for the next session. (Meaning the "top" voted muds will need to work harder to keep their status every month.)

At the moment it is just silly, nor is it an indication in ANY way how good a mud is, evidently. It is simply an advertisement list for the games that already have a large playerbase, which is in my opinion bad for the mud community (a free list should promote the smaller games that can't afford fancy banners all over the place). Now, i dont have anything against commercial games as im currently working on one, but still, i think the free games should have a chance to get advertisement.
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Old 09-08-2003, 09:49 AM   #13
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Just curious, how exactly does TMS determine who gets what position in the ranking of the MUDs?

It could be that, maybe, a very fantastic MUD has 1k players but those players are just too lazy to vote for the MUD and it could be ranked just in the regions of 80-100.

The same could be said of Achaea, which claims that they have over 100 players online on the average. Those 100 over players may be fanatics who may keep voting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but TMS doesn't limit 1 vote per IP, or something, every 24 hours. A voter could click on the 'vote for this MUD' link for 10 times within an hour.
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Old 09-08-2003, 10:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (pkfren @ Sep. 08 2003,09:49)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but TMS doesn't limit 1 vote per IP, or something, every 24 hours.  A voter could click on the 'vote for this MUD' link for 10 times within an hour.
You're wrong. It limits 2 votes per IP within a 24 hour period.
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Old 09-08-2003, 02:01 PM   #15
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As far as MU*s not that high on the list go, doesn't Brody do an Underdog of the month Promo? considering that the recent forum posts are the first text you see up on screen, and also considering that it's kind of hard to increase a forum poster's opininon of you by clicking him, (Although I don't know brody so it might be possible )I'd be much keener to take a look at that than at some MU* that seems to somehow get over 1000 votes 3 hours after the counter resets...

Dunno, it's late, and I seem to have come down with a strong case of "Add-my-two-cents-itis"
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Old 09-08-2003, 02:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Maelgrim @ Sep. 08 2003,14:01)
I'd be much keener to take a look at that than at some MU* that seems to somehow get over 1000 votes 3 hours after the counter resets...
Oi, which mud gets 1000 votes 3 hours after the counter resets?

--matt
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:03 PM   #17
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I think it was sarcasm, logos. Or really bad math.
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Old 09-09-2003, 12:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 08 2003,20:03)
I think it was sarcasm, logos.  Or really bad math.
Exaggeration to prove a point, actually.
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Old 09-09-2003, 12:38 PM   #19
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Yeah, that's what I thought, but with this community you never know. What's 4 times 202 again? Hehe.

-Delerak
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Old 09-09-2003, 04:40 PM   #20
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Materia Magica.
Where we mix the magical world of crass mass production with a happygolucky, carefree overpopulated pbase.
Materia Magica. Where dreams come true... In stock.
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