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Old 05-10-2005, 09:34 PM   #41
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Bleh. Double post.
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Delerak @ May 10 2005,21:30)
I can safely call anyone a criminal, that's the beauty of the internet.  And they can safely break the law.  That's the beauty of the internet..

-D
Apparently. But that doesn't make either one right and it actually undercuts the very valid points people have been making about the wrongs that were done.

Oooh. Wrongdoers. That has a certain cowboy appeal and avoids the legal stigma! Try it on for size!
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:39 PM   #43
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It doesn't make it right, nothing makes it right, but they did it, no one can deny that anymore, there's too much showing that they DID use the code to make profit, I'd put my money on the prosecution if it did go to court, not only because I know what I'm talking about but because my dad was on a legal counsel for 25 years. I really don't want to argue about it though, it's not my battle, and I really could care less.
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:52 PM   #44
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I think it's absolutely crystal clear they used the code to make money. However, it's not so cut and dry that they used it to make a profit. That's the fine line that lawyers could bicker about to pad their expensive suits with cash in a real live court of law, rather than a bunch of armchair lawyers like us on a message board.

Making money isn't the same thing as making a profit. All Medievia's owners have to do to prove they didn't make a profit is to show they've broken even or *lost* money over the years while running this enterprise.

I'm not a lawyer. My dad wasn't a lawyer. My stepdad wasn't a lawyer. My mom worked for lawyers as a paralegal. I covered court cases for a metro newspaper for the better part of a decade. And I've watched lots of Law & Order. None of that means I know what I'm talking about with any real expertise. But I'm fairly sure the jury's not even seated yet on whether they've made a profit.
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:59 PM   #45
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Actually Brody, Vryce and Soleil have stated here recently, and often in the past, that they -have- made profit off their game. Enough profit in fact that Vryce is able to do this as his full time income-producing job.

Please note also - that at the present time I am only regurgitating what I've read, that I've already stated my opinions regarding this issue, and have no interest in restating them. The paragraph above is merely to point out a fact, without any judgement one way or another. I'd rather everyone else offer their opinions. It's more entertaining to me than to get involved in the battle again.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:01 PM   #46
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As the_logos already pointed out, they could make money off the mud without making a 'profit' in the legal sense of the word by simply paying themselves reasonable salaries. But it seems to be pretty much undisputed that they did violate the license in at least one way, and that is by removing the credits.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jaregarde @ May 10 2005,22:01)
As the_logos already pointed out, they could make money off the mud without making a 'profit' in the legal sense of the word by simply paying themselves reasonable salaries. But it seems to be pretty much undisputed that they did violate the license in at least one way, and that is by removing the credits.
I'm not defending Medievia in any way. Don't get me wrong. I certainly believe they've violated the license in the past and may well be doing so now, even if they've so modified the code that it's barely recognizable as DIKU anymore.

I'm just saying we shouldn't call them criminals unless they're convicted of a crime. That's all. License breakers? Seems like it. Wrongdoers? Hmm - that seems a valid assertion, yep. Dirty, filthy, sneaky Hobbitses? Quite possibly. However, I have no solid evidence of hair on their feet.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:28 PM   #48
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Evidence Scmevidence, hang 'em all on the gallows! Medieval style! Har!
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Keriwena @ May 10 2005,00[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]If what you say is true, then logically the best muds would be written by kept women.
Hmm...I don't quite understand what you mean. Would you care to explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Brody @ May 10 2005,22<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]Quote (Jaregarde @ May 10 2005,22<!--emo&1)
As the_logos already pointed out, they could make money off the mud without making a 'profit' in the legal sense of the word by simply paying themselves reasonable salaries. But it seems to be pretty much undisputed that they did violate the license in at least one way, and that is by removing the credits.

I'm not defending Medievia in any way. Don't get me wrong. I certainly believe they've violated the license in the past and may well be doing so now, even if they've so modified the code that it's barely recognizable as DIKU anymore.

I'm just saying we shouldn't call them criminals unless they're convicted of a crime. That's all. License breakers? Seems like it. Wrongdoers? Hmm - that seems a valid assertion, yep. Dirty, filthy, sneaky Hobbitses? Quite possibly. However, I have no solid evidence of hair on their feet.
Well, to clarify, I hadn't thought you were defending Medievia; I was just replying to what you had said about how unclear it is whether or not they made a profit.

Anyway, since it is so difficult to prove and the DikuMud license is so poorly written with regards to the profit restriction, the main issue for me is that they removed the DikuMud credits. I mean, even if (and this is a big 'if' ) they run a mud that is no longer DikuMud derivative, it's pretty pathetic to commit a crime and hide behind it later as 'something of the past', without even apologizing for it. Its just a slap in the face to the DikuMud developers, who designed for free probably the single most influential codebase of today (at least among hobbyists).

(Note: Er..sorry for the smilies in the quotes; I have yet to learn to quote correctly.)
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:58 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Shao_Long @ May 10 2005,06:22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Easy, and it could end the controversy forever.  If someone reputable, especially members of the DIKU team, said "nope, this code is nothing like DIKU, it is completely original and we have no problem with it at all" there wouldn't be much point in anyone complaining ever again, would there?
It doesn't mean much.  There would still be the derivitive aspect but I doubt there would be widespread animosity based on that alone, because derivitive is a tricksy legal point, not a down to earth commonsense point.  Many people have downloaded MP3s, abandonware, warez and other stuff for "free" from the internet or had a friend make copies of music or software for them to use.  It is technically stealling but it doesn't -feel- like stealing because the owner still has everything he had before the theft, he hasn't lost anything except the potential income he might have made if you had purchased a copy (but you might not have purchased a copy, and you might still purchase a copy, so the income loss is purely speculative, at least in any particular instance).  IP theft is certainly rude, but it doesn't always feel criminal.  I don't think you'd be able to organize a good lynch mob if all you had was that Medivia did something rude a few years ago.    


If an independant code audit revealed that the code was now 100% original, I personally wouldn't have a big problem with them despite the fact that they would still have used DIKU code as a crutch to get them to where they are now.  If the DIKU team and Merc teams came right out and said, "we don't have a problem with what Medevia has done" then I wouldn't have a problem with it either.  The problem is that Medevia lost its credibility years ago when it claimed to be completely original, and then was revealed to still have been using code protected by the DIKU or Merc licenses -- they lied about it once and there is no reason to believe that they are not still lying.

I would be even happier with them if they did the polite thing and put the credits back in, even if it was just a "with thanks to" or "inspired/influenced by the works of" type thing.  Even if they are not using DIKU code anymore, it would be polite to thank the DIKU team since using DIKU code did help Medevia get to where it is do day.  It would be the decent thing to do.  Chances are that neither the individuals of the DIKU team nor their university is ever going to sue.  At this point if they did try to sue it might be thrown out because they knew about it for a long time but did not act in a timely matter -- that happens all the time on Judge Judy.    The fact that Medevia isn't going to get sued dosn't make them right, but it does free them from the popular American passtimes of "covering your ass" and "limiting liability".  If they are not afraid of being sued, then there is no reason for them to not do the right thing and give credit where credit is due.


Acting like a jerk out of sheer jerkness is unapealing.  I've been tempted to try out a couple of the IRE games: I've heard both good and bad reviews from players, some of the advertising is cute, and I've tried most of the other games in the top 20.  The reason I haven't tried them is because the_logos comes off looking like a jerk everywhere I see him.  The blurbs that claim IRE games are free are also slightly misleading, they should be upfront that it is possible to purchase advantages in the games, even though it isn't required to do so.  It gives IRE the slight stench of unpleasant surprises and hidden fees commonly associated with car dealerships and cell phone contracts -- again a jerky thing to do.  Likewise, Medivia sets off my jerk detector.  After reading a USENET discussion of Medievia a couple years ago I was curious enough to try the game for a few hours, and it seemed pretty average among well-established games, niether fantastic nor awful, and certainly nothing great enough to overcome the odour of jerkness that clings to it.  The fact that they don't attempt to clear up the controversy and actually seem quite smug about it all just increases the jerk factor.


Angela Christine
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Old 05-11-2005, 12:44 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (AC1 @ May 10 2005,22:58)
I've been tempted to try out a couple of the IRE games: I've heard both good and bad reviews from players, some of the advertising is cute, and I've tried most of the other games in the top 20.  The reason I haven't tried them is because Vryce comes off looking like a jerk everywhere I see him.
Wait...what does Vryce have to do with IRE?
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:00 PM   #52
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Putting the DIKU issues aside, here are the good and bad points about playing Medievia MUD IMHO.

[1] Good points
The integration between various features is fantastic. For instance there are trade runs, dragonlairs and catacombs. All three are integrated like this:

A trade run is, basically, a trip across country roads from one trade post to another, handling certain monster factions that attack your wagon to steal it. If you make it to the desired tradepost with goods they want, you get gold. Certain mob factions, when killed, contain a dragonlair map in the corpse. Loot the map, get about 20 decent stat players together, and go to the dragonlair place shown on the map. Then attack the dragon in the lair. Ay about half HP down it will flee to the nearest clantown. Go to that clantown, kill the dragon and loot its corpse for dragonhide. Go to marious the wizard in Medievia city for a clue about the location of the catacombs, a zone which changes location at random. Find combs entrance, get to the bottom of combs, enter shop, an swer riddle corretcly, and make combo equipment with your dragonhides.

[2] Bad points.
Medievia's classes and skills are very limited and there are no race choices apart from a human default. Your class choices are mage, cleric, thief and warrior. That is REALLY unimaginative 1985 tabletop stuff. And their skills are pretty boring too. all a warrior does is kick, bash and charge. Combat is as boring as bat excrement witha warrior. All a thief really does is backstab. A cleric is slightly interesting with the attune spell and resurrect. But the only class that has anything to offer for interesting gameplay is a Mage, and that's pretty flattering. A mage can summon elementals with stones, use manashield to lose mana instead of hp in fights, and shockwave an enemy. but even then I have seen many MUDs with far more imaginative skillsets.

And there is the donation equipment issue. While in theory there are ways of getting uber equipment without paying RL cash for talismans etc, in reality you cannot be a competitive player without paying. You could kill seaslugs or find dragonhide eq for super stats, but to do either for talisman level stats is very VERY hard. You would have to be a very, very good player. And as for submitting articles to muds;linger or building a zone, I can comment as someone who was once a zonebuilder for MEDievia. It is extremely hard to get an immortal position; the competition is fierce and the applications graded vigorously on a 1 to 10 scale. And it is hard to get any game credit for mudslinger pieces; many articles in mudslinger get no credit.

Then there are the convenience items that are bought with RL cash. There is the blessing that shortens your time penal ty after dying from the usual stupid 10 minutes to about 3. This is where Medievia gets really stupid. You are paying RL cash to make up for the MUDs faults!!! Why doesn't VRyce have no time penalty for death and have donation equipment instead make someone's MUDding better?? Because when it comes to intelligent game design, that guy is just clueless.

****
Medievia is a weird MUD. at times its features are brilliant. At other times it is as abysmal as any ad hoc 14 year old's first wannabe Mud admin summer project. I leave the reader to make up their own mind.
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Old 05-11-2005, 10:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jaregarde @ May 11 2005,00:44)
Wait...what does Vryce have to do with IRE?

Sorry, I meant the_logos, I must have had a brain spasm or something.
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Old 05-11-2005, 10:30 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by
And it is hard to get any game credit for mudslinger pieces; many articles in mudslinger get no credit.
This is absolutely untrue.  The only articles that do not get donation credit are poems, and short ones at that.  And if the poems don't get donation credit they get figurines that are worth either 5 million, 3 million or 1 million gold.  It's a wonder more people don't contribute to the Mudslinger. I know this information first-hand as I am the only one who deals with Mudslinger donation items.  

Just thought I had to say my piece here.  No flames needed.
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:09 AM   #55
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Soleil wrote, May 11 2005,22:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is absolutely untrue.  
Spoken by the representative of a mud that to most members of the community will always represent the absolute opposite of truth.

Or, wait, I see that recently she actually admitted to the code theft, so maybe this marks a new era of truth?

So how about it, Soleil? Why not take up the suggestion of purchasing the Valhalla code, to make up for your past sins? It's not like you have to actually use it. Just pay for the licence you once stole and put the credit back on your website. It might even do you some good.
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:07 AM   #56
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Buy the valhalla license, write an appology to diku owners and mud community saying you should have done that a long time ago and i think you will be much more accepted by people

Of course maybe the bad image and all the discussions and stuff it causes gives you a lot more traffic
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:45 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hephos @ May 12 2005,09:0)
Buy the valhalla license, write an appology to diku owners and mud community saying you should have done that a long time ago and i think you will be much more accepted by people <!--emo&:)
While the Valhalla license is certainly affordable enough for Medievia ($899.00 US for the unlimited business license, as per this page), it's also not the same codebase Medievia is based on- more of a derivative of DIKU, and not on the same "chain" as the code Medievia stole.

Then again, look at what you get!  The owners claim the following on their web page:

The (VME) Valhalla Mud Engine © is one of the most sophisticated mud servers available on the Internet today. It provides ease of setup, maximum ability to configure, and the most powerful interpretive language available.   VME © is now released to the public for sale from the original writers of what is considered the the most popular mud base on the internet, DIKU MUD.   VME © is not a DIKU clone, it has far evolved above any other mud available today.

Also, the money wouldn't go to the DIKU team- it goes to the three people listed on the page above.

While I appreciate the idea of making a gesture towards the DIKU team, I think purchasing a Valhalla license for a MUD not running Valhalla is a bit apples-and-oranges.

If Medievia truly cared about making an honest start, their first step would be to restore the credits on their game.  It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that their code was derived from DIKU, and not crediting that team is inexcusable plagiarism.  It wouldn't be a complete solution, but it's the obvious first step.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (mudnutx @ May 11 2005,21:00)
      Then there are the convenience items that are bought with RL cash. There is the blessing that shortens your time penal ty after dying from the usual stupid 10 minutes to about 3. This is where Medievia gets really stupid. You are paying RL cash to make up for the MUDs faults!!! Why doesn't VRyce have no time penalty for death and have donation equipment instead make someone's MUDding better?? Because when it comes to intelligent game design, that guy is just clueless.

    ****
    Medievia is a weird MUD. at times its features are brilliant. At other times it is as abysmal as any ad hoc 14 year old's first wannabe Mud admin summer project. I leave the reader to make up their own mind.
Having a 10 minute penalty for dying without purchasing an item? ####, sounds like a good business decision on a game based on donations. Make it completely unplayable, and unfun to play unless you pay to make it fun. Ohhh, you don't like not being able to Speedwalk? Well purchase this item, and now you can? (This is a made up example! Dangnabit, we don't believe in being able to Recall, or to be able to shout I NEED A CR, unless you buy a special item (Again made up example!.

Sure the have at getting dragonhide armor, anyone can do it! But you probably won't be able to until you've got some of these nifty items. And sure it's fun to play while your newbie timer runs out. See it's free to play. But if you want to play at any level of competition (because Med has yet to reach a goal-oriented mechanic, then it has a end-of-game mechanic) you need at least x,y, and z. But it'll be even more fun if you also purchase a-w too!
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Old 05-12-2005, 02:08 PM   #59
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Having played Medievia before finding out what kind of slime ran it, I found it to be a good H&S. However, it was still INFERIOR to the FREE H&S that I played at the time (since then, I've given up H&S altogether, but that's another story). Why pay to play the third-best H&S when you can play the two best for free? Therein lies the answer. It's because "pay-for-perk" MUDs are "pay to succeed" MUDs. Sure, you can get almost everything without paying. But those who pay will always have an advantage. Since the purpose of H&S MUDs is advancing, acquiring, and competing, if you don't pay, you're not going to achieve the maximum potential of the second goal and won't be able to truly achieve the third.

So, with all the insecure, competitive people that play H&S MUDs out there who simply have to succeed and be better than everyone else, charging for "perks" really turns into charging for success and can generate a lot of money (amazing how many people compensate for real-life deficiences through online games).

So, if Medievia's failing to make profit, it's not by trying, it's just because they're inept. They're still violating the DIKU license, just not as financially-successful as those who have morals (excluding the_logos obviously).

Take care,

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Old 05-12-2005, 02:15 PM   #60
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As for IRE games, I've tried three of them a combined total of eight times. Each time I did, I found them to be more and more lacking in comparison to free MUDs out there. The IRE games are clearly inferior MUDs. They cater to, as I mentioned in my above post, those who want to succeed through payment of cash for "perks". As for those who play IRE games but don't pay, I suspect ignorance is the reason they do. They probably haven't tried many other games (if any others at all). So, ignorant that there are much better MUDs out there (which offer better RP or a more level playing field), they continue to play IRE's inferior offerings.

Take care,

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