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Old 04-11-2006, 02:50 AM   #41
Anitra
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Luvan wrote: : April 10 2006,23:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says it will be updated with new muds added. Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on.
It’s a bit remarkable, (and I don’t mean this in a positive way), that most of the trolling is done by the moderator. One example among several:

the_logos wrote: April 10 2006,16,07
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought.
One has got to wonder if there is there anyone else beside the_logos who didn’t understand that I was referring to the administrators, not individual players? For those that didn’t, here are the criteria with a clarification:

1. No in game advantages are sold BY THE ADMINISTRATORS for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

And here is an updated list, this time in alphabetical order, to make it easier to follow. (I don’t have time to add the URLs now, but I’ll do that next time the list is updated, unless someone else cares to step in and do the honours).
Feel free to suggest more Muds, as long as you keep the standards up.

4 Dimensions
Aabahran
Abandoned Realms
Adventures unlimited
Awakened Worlds
Armageddon
Awakened Worlds
Carrion Fields
Clandestine
Discworld
Everwar
Godwars II
Harshlands
Medieval Times
mume- multi users in middle earth
Realms of Despair
Shadows of Isildur
Shattered Kingdoms
Sloth mud
The secret of Atlas
Wheel of Time MUD
Unwritten legends
Zebedee
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Old 04-11-2006, 03:24 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Clifton @ April 11 2006,03:15)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
And here we go again. No point in arguing about this really as all the arguing in the world isn't going to change the fact that the way we use free is simply the standard in the games industry.
Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.
Many would say the gaming industry is one of the most amateurish "professional" industries. Looking at the_logos as an example of that "industry" is proof enough of that, though he's far more unprofessional than average. He's also an extreme small-fry and probably the joke of those in the industry that even know who he is so don't judge them all by him.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-11-2006, 03:27 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Anitra @ April 11 2006,03:50)
Luvan wrote: : April 10 2006,23:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says  it will be updated with new muds added.  Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on.
It’s a bit remarkable, (and I don’t mean this in a positive way), that most of the trolling is done by the moderator. One example among several:

the_logos wrote: April 10 2006,16,07
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought.
One has got to wonder if there is there anyone else beside the_logos who didn’t understand that I was referring to the administrators, not individual players? For those that didn’t, here are the criteria with a clarification:

1. No in game advantages are sold BY THE ADMINISTRATORS for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

And here is an updated list, this time in alphabetical order, to make it easier to follow. (I don’t have time to add the URLs now, but I’ll do that next time the list is updated, unless someone else cares to step in and do the honours).
Feel free to suggest more Muds, as long as you keep the standards up.

4 Dimensions
Aabahran
Abandoned Realms
Adventures unlimited
Awakened Worlds
Armageddon
Awakened Worlds
Carrion Fields
Clandestine
Discworld
Everwar
Godwars II
Harshlands
Medieval Times
mume- multi users in middle earth
Realms of Despair
Shadows of Isildur
Shattered Kingdoms
Sloth mud
The secret of Atlas
Wheel of Time MUD
Unwritten legends
Zebedee
Matt's view is due to his extremely limited knowledge of the types of MUDs out there. He's familiar with Viagra MUDs and the types of players that play those. As a result, he judges everyone by the rather low standards his MUDs and his pbases probably exhibit. There are plenty of MUDs, administrators, and players who are disgusted by the thought of OOC factors, especially real money, having an influence on their game. All of the MUDs I've seriously played in my life (that would only be a total of about a dozen) had policies against money being a factor and there was a general disgust at the very thought. It wasn't done (though that's not to say that occassional new, short-lived players didn't cheat in other ways).

But if all you know if Viagra MUDs, you might be convinced that everyone's out to spend money too.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-11-2006, 04:34 AM   #44
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Just don't complain when your posts get deleted, Jason. Not even an attempt at decency this time around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.
That standard comes from what's considered "accepted use" in the game industry, I gather. MUDs being a 'limited commodity' has little bearing on the fact that they're infact games.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:00 AM   #45
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During some down time tonight, I began to go through the list and try some newer, less advertised or known Free to Play MUDs.

.Dimension 2 and Resident Evil: Re-incarnate, both from AJS Games, both struck me as unique and fun(and completely free).

If you are a fan of Resident Evil, high-tech/gunnery style games, good maps(RER's actually adds to the horror setting, because of how well their line-of-sight works), then you should definitely check ou this newly released game.

.D2's system seems to borrow elements from Final Fantasy, Diablo II, and .Hack; the combination is actually implemented very well, and I had the most fun trying these two newer MUDs that I've had playing a new MUD(as opposed to the same old established PvP MUDs, or my testing/playing my own MUDs) in a long time.

Check them out, definitely, and add them to the list. Particularly Resident Evil, simply because that is a great genre for an innovative MUD, and it really has not been looked into in the past verily.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:14 AM   #46
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I'd like to suggest adding LegendMud to the list.

It has a similar time travel theme as 4 Dimensions, but is a bit older. It's a very good mud with an unique world, and as far a I know totally free.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:51 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
a) they should not allow any type of in-game perks to be bought for real money, and
b) they should be of high quality, stable and well established.
Avendar: The Crucible of Legends meets these criteria easily.

As an aside (and from a lurker's POV), I was happy to give the_Logos the benefit of the doubt as to his ability to moderate objectively and fairly. I'm having to reconsider, after seeing what he's doing to derail this thread.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:07 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 11 2006,05:34)
Just don't complain when your posts get deleted, Jason. Not even an attempt at decency this time around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.
That standard comes from what's considered "accepted use" in the game industry, I gather. MUDs being a 'limited commodity' has little bearing on the fact that they're infact games.
What lack of decency? I'm simply stating facts. Matt always approaches any topic regarding MUDs from the perspective: that of his own. While that's understandable since that's what he's most familiar with, it's not universal. And yet, he phrases everything as if it were universal. For example, the RPI community hates OOC influence (at least most of it does, as I said before, but then some would consider part of the RPI community to not really be RPI). So, no not every MUD has people using real money to influence the game. In fact, I play a MUD that outright refuses donations to help support it. Its owners pay fully out of their own pocket. Period.

As for the gaming industry, it is a joke. Lucrative? No doubt about it. But it's not taken seriously by a lot of people because its products are seen to be designed for children yet are used by "adults". Geeks, nerds, etc. are terms used to describe gamers and the industry. Even accountants, the long-suffering geeks of the business world, are more respected than the gaming industry. And are the stereotypes accurate? In some cases, yes. Some gamers are total social retards, stereotypes to the letter. Does that mean the stereotypes are fair? No. But it's not a lack of decency that makes me point it out. I'm just being honest.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:05 AM   #49
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Ours is much smaller than anything else on that list, so perhaps you won't consider it "well-established" however Dragon's Den has been around since the 1980s. And we're run entirely off of volunteers. No profit coming in and no perks out. We have information in regards to donations (which include hardware) but we rarely get anything in. And we don't use stock. Period. All our rooms, mobs, objects are intricately detailed by the good people who do this for fun. I'm trying to think if there are any other muds I have to add to that list beyond our own, but I think you've added them.

And I agree, it's sad but true. Truly free muds have a much harder time when it comes to advertising and it's good to see a list of them being developed.
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cowofjoy @ April 12 2006,16:05)
Ours is much smaller than anything else on that list, so perhaps you won't consider it "well-established" however Dragon's Den has been around since the 1980s.
You mean 1991 - still, 15 years is an impressive lifespan for a mud.
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:55 AM   #51
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prof1515: April 11 2006,04:27
Quote:
Originally Posted by
There are plenty of MUDs, administrators, and players who are disgusted by the thought of OOC factors, especially real money, having an influence on their game.
Maybe Jason could have expressed himself in a more polite way, but in this statement he is totally correct. As somebody already pointed out, there are two different cultures among muds, and for those that are only familiar with commercial games it is apparently hard to understand, that for some people money isn’t the main factor.

Some of the pay-for-perks muds seem to be totally adapted to the commercial world, where anything can be bought and sold, including integrity, and consequently they believe (or pretend to believe) that everyone else is the same.

In the mud that I currently play, you’d be publicly ridiculed by both the administrators and the players if you tried to buy some beefed up equipment for real money. And even when I once offered to donate some money to help with the upkeep of the server, the offer was politely turned down by the owners, who referred me to the Diku and Circle licence.

Note that I said ‘donate’, which to me means ‘give away’, without expecting anything in return beyond a simple ‘thank you’. To the commercial muds ‘donate’ obviously means something different; a synonym to ‘purchase’.

In fact these muds sometimes seem to use the same kind of Newspeak that was first introduced in Orwell’s 1984 (i.e. 'The Ministry of War' is called 'Ministry of Peace', 'Ministry of Lies' becomes 'Ministry of Truth’ etc.).

The technique used by some commercial Muds is not quite as blatant, but still the original meaning of a word is stretched and twisted, to make it sound better. So ‘Purchase’ becomes ‘Donation’, ‘Pay-for-perks’ becomes ‘Free to play’. Letting the meaning of a word slide like this is an underhand way of disguising the truth. It’s very obvious why they do it too, for those that aren’t totally blindsided. And although it may not be against the law, or even against the common practice among commercial games, it still looks bad to many of us. In a way the commercialisation of the world is slowly undermining the ethic standards that most people adhered to as late as 10 years ago.

And perhaps that is why I prefer the atmosphere of the really free muds. Another reason is of course that the concept ‘Fair Play’ still is alive and kicking in those Muds. The chance of success isn’t largely depending on the size of your wallet.
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:21 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Emil @ April 12 2006,11:55)
The chance of success isn’t largely depending on the size of your wallet.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the thrust of your post, I would be curious to know a couple of things...

1. If not money, then what should it depend on?

2. How do you define 'success' at playing a mud?
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:23 PM   #53
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Are you seriously trying to claim some sort of moral high-ground here?

And what's this about 'disguising the meaning'? IRE can't sell anything unless the customers know there's something for sale. The goal most certainly isn't to disguise the ability to spend money on the game.

EDIT: Bah. Ninja'd.
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:56 PM   #54
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Jason wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
There are plenty of MUDs, administrators, and players who are disgusted by the thought of OOC factors, especially real money, having an influence on their game.
One wonders how they intend to play the game without an OOC factor, such as the player himself, affecting the game. Without OOC factors, there can be no player skill. Without OOC factors, no player can be permitted to play longer than another player (free time of the player is an OOC factor after all). Without OOC factors, all players must have precisely the same latency, or OOC factors have just crept into the game. Etc.

Eliminating OOC factors is a strawman that is both undesirable and impossible.

--matt
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:03 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Clifton @ April 11 2006,03:15)
Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.
No problem. I can understand asking. It's simply common usage, and it's accepted by basically everyone outside of a few hobbyists. I ran a roundtable recently at the largest game developers conference in the world (10,000+ games industry people), for instance, full of professionals from every walk of the games industry entitled "Free-to-play, pay for virtual assets." Nobody, in three sessions of the roundtable and hundreds of participants in total, had a problem with calling the model free to play. The Federal Trade Commission doesn't have a problem with it (and you're on a site regulated by them). Google doesn't have a problem with it. It's just how it is. If these guys want to invent their own term, that's fine, but what free means is well-understood and well-accepted, and we're not going to change just because a few people don't like it.

It's not just the games industry either, I might add. Common usage of the word free permits "buy one, get one free", in which case you -have- to buy something to get something else for free (in our games, you don't have to buy anything, ever. You could play 24/7 and never buy a thing). You can argue that's deceptive, etc etc, but at the end of the day, the rest of the country and world understands just what it means.

--matt
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:14 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cron0s @ April 12 2006,13:21)
1. If not money, then what should it depend on?

2. How do you define 'success' at playing a mud?
Our philosophy has always been that everything inside the game should be the result of actions taken within the game, and that everyone should have equal opportunity to reach their own goals.  We don't offer equal results to every player--it's a competitive environment, and reaching your goal (victory in combat, leadership of a political or religious group, etc.) may deny another player their goal.  As game administrators (and players.. we encourage our staff to remain active as players), we don't feel any need to set goals for the players.  They come in with them!  

The philosophy isn't unique-- the rules of most sports are designed with this philosophy.  The NFL has (especially recently) developed a good model for this (restrictive salary cap, tight policies on equipment and drug use, parity-oriented drafting, etc.) and its continued popularity in the US comes from the fact that at the beginning of each season, many teams have a realistic chance to win.  Fans often feel that every year could be their year, barring stupid management decisions or bad luck with injuries.

On the other hand, Major League Baseball has sadly drifted towards "pay-for-perks" lately... while the Florida Marlins could technically win a championship with this year's payroll ($14,998,500), I wouldn't wager that they're going to win more games than the Yankees ($194,663,079).  Much like a low-budget player in a "pay-for-perks" world, the Marlins are allowed to play, just not win.

Going back to the original point of the thread, Anitra is trying to make a list of MUDs where fairness-oriented philosophies are in place, for precisely the reasons Prof1515 and others have elaborated.  There are a sizable number of players who don't want an environment where RL money tramples over skill and achievement.  TMS's search system doesn't highlight those games (thanks to all the Newspeak pay MUDs calling themselves "Free!"), so Anitra is creating a separate resource (this thread) which fills that gap.

It's about what is honest, not what is technically legal to advertise.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:17 PM   #57
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A few statements.

A) Good post, Emil; you sum up what we are constantly trying to make a point of here on these forums.

B) Can we update the post on the main page, perhaps, Anitra? So that people who are using this thread as a referrence can easily refer to the first post and not read this off-topicness?

C) Matt, as a moderator who has already shown himself being more-than-willing to "remove off-topic posts" and "flame-baiting", I've got something to ask of you.


Moderate yourself. Period. Stop derailing this conversation. Show us that you aren't a bias moderator and have some control over your fingers and your ego, and leave this thread alone, unless you have advertising to post up here for MUDs that do NOT sell perks for money.


To everyone else - there are threads and subjects on which it is good to take a stand against Matt's ethical(or unethical, depending) approach to the MUDing community. Let's not give him the time of day here, as this thread is meant to help the so called best of the "fringe, 100% Free Hobbyist MUDs", or in otherwords, the MUDs we(in this post) enjoy more than IRE games and want to see benefit from something similar to what Syno should have done here to begin with(creating a list of completely free MUDs, that is).
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 11 2006,05:34)
Just don't complain when your posts get deleted, Jason. Not even an attempt at decency this time around.
Unfortunately, the moderators of this particular forum on TMS don't seem to have a problem with off-topic insults, which is their right, of course.

--matt
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Old 04-12-2006, 03:31 PM   #59
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I went ahead and organized the list, here it is.

1. 4 Dimensions
2. Aabahran
3. Abandoned Realms
4. Adventures Unlimited
5. Armageddon
6. Avendar: The Crucible of Legends
7. Awakened Worlds
8. Clandestine MUD
9. Discworld
10. Dragon's Den
11. Everwar
12. Godwars II
13. Harshlands
14. LegendMud
15. Realms of Despair
16. Shadows of Isildur
17. Shattered Kingdoms
18. Sloth MUD
19. The Secret of Atlas
20. Unwritten Legends
21. Xyllomer
22. Zebedee
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Old 04-12-2006, 04:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cron0s @ April 12 2006,13:21)
1. If not money, then what should it depend on?
In some cases, like RPIs, it's about assuming a character and role-playing that character as if you were them. It's been compared to, and made fun of by some as, online acting. That's probably a good comparison. Sure some people are Morgan Freemans while others are more comparable to the cast of a junior high play, but in the end, it's the attempt that matters, not the success. As long as they're trying to RP and not H&S, people are happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
2. How do you define 'success' at playing a mud?
For some MUDs, like the RPIs, success would be playing the character unlike yourself in a complete and believable manner. But ultimately, RPI or not, it's entertainment. There doesn't have to be "success" versus "failure" result. Did you have "success" while watching TV last night? Did you have "success" while hanging out with friends last week? If you enjoyed yourself, that's all the success you need. Not everything in life, MUDs included, require fierce competition to define success or enjoyment.

Take care,

Jason
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