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Old 02-16-2003, 09:03 PM   #21
smadronia
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As an admin of an underdog mud that as this point isn't on the top 100 (it was a while ago), I have to say I like the idea. I do promotions for my mud, but I can only do so much, someone singling out my mud to point out one good feature gives me a leg up as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 02-16-2003, 09:32 PM   #22
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Your inference (and anyone else's) that this is meant to be a slam on the MUDs I spotlight is your own.
I didn't say you were intending to slam the muds, I just said that that's how some people will interpret it. I also pointed out that you are free to make your posts regardless of how those people feel - although (as you are presumably trying to help these people) you need to realise that you're quite possibly going to cause offense.

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Here's the definition I get from my trusty pal, dictionary.com:
1) One that is expected to lose a contest or struggle, as in sports or politics.
2) One that is at a disadvantage.
Myself, I follow Definition No. 2. The games I spotlight are disadvantaged from the standpoint of visibility on the list. In an effort to give them some advantage, I post about one each day.
The definition I took came from the Merrian Webster online dictionary (www.m-w.com), but the two are close enough. You could just as easily use the definition of "loser":

1 : one that loses especially consistently
2 : one who is incompetent or unable to succeed; also : something doomed to fail or disappoint

Then just claim that you're following the first definition - which is almost invariable true in the context of these boards.

However you should remember that many people don't particularly care about the voting. They don't consider their mud to be a "loser" or an "underdog" just because they didn't get their votes up. Realms of Despair is rank 67, yet it has currently has around 400 players online, and I doubt it considers itself an "underdog".
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Old 02-16-2003, 10:53 PM   #23
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I have decided some of you people do not mud enough. You spend time instead nit picking over word definitions instead of honest judgement of situations. Brody did not by any written tone of voice or statement insult any of the MUDs he picked.

I assume people who play word games like this would be the same people who, if I made a post praising to the heavens certain things about the black community, would come down on me because I said black and not african-american or whatever the latest politically correct term is supposed to be.

Do certain words blind your judgement to the positive impact of such messages? If I say "Underdog", can you not stop yourself from finding some insult in it, even if I said your MUD was the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Use your reason and your heart. Someone who sacrifices his own time to promote lesser known muds is not insulting them.

And I still have yet to hear the creators from these MUDs say a thing about it. Looks like they aren't insulted by free advertising on Top Mud Sites either.
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Old 02-16-2003, 11:03 PM   #24
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Cool

I thought this was a pretty nice idea of Brode's when I first read it and didn't think it could possibly bring up negative conotations. Wow.

Usually, when I think 'underdog' I do think the one not expected to win - but the one folks usually cheer the hardest for when they do (except if you're the home team). Least, those make for entertaining movie plots. If that makes sense.

*thumbs up*
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:32 AM   #25
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3-->
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kitsune @ Feb. 16 2003,22[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]3)]but the one folks usually cheer the hardest for when they do (except if you're the home team).  Least, those make for entertaining movie plots.  
Us aussies always go for the underdog from the word go, if we're not involved in it. We also HOPE the underdog wins, so when I see the word underdog I think (the one that might not be the most popular, but it has the best features/skills(when about sport)).

Keep up the great work Brody! If I wasn't so busy I'd even be willing to hop in and just see a little bit about (but I've been spoiled by the mud I play so I could never stay ).

I'm DOUBLY amazed that you run one of the more successful muds here as well (well, at least popular ).
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:38 AM   #26
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Exclamation

*SNIP* I had some excess baggage to say to the owner of the mush I used to play. But decided eh it didn't matter.

***

You know every now and then I've read mention of folks requesting that someone official do mud reviews especially right after they've been stung by a review from a disgruntled player. Seems that's where Brody is headed with this. Since Brody is a moderator(His name is still listed as a moderator in roleplaying I believe even though I know I read somewhere that he had resigned from all mod duties) here on tms. I guess that makes him a good candidate. Now if his short bits on the muds he's visited were expanded upon into a full blown review. But then there's no way it would be a daily thing. Brody's Underdog Mud of the Week? And would he have the time for this? Advertisement or Review? Would there be objections to an Official TMS Reviewer? What better advertisement or seal of approval than being an officially TMS reviewed and approved mud to visit?
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:56 AM   #27
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Having official TMS reviews is something I've discussed with Synozeer, when the site goes through a redesign process it's something he's considering doing...
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Old 02-17-2003, 02:57 AM   #28
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Weird how people can turn a high-five into a kick in the nuts, eh?

Go Brody. I think it's a good idea, and applaud you for taking the time to do it. Cheers.

I think we all got what he meant by underdog as well, eh? Some people just gotta pick at things...

Once more, Brody, Rock on brotha.
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Old 02-17-2003, 05:43 AM   #29
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You go, Brody, I too applaud you!

It's a great idea, and what you are doing must be good for the community.

A suggestion, since some people must be nit-picking:

Howabout changing your title to
'Brody's Dark Horse of the Day'.
I think that would have no negative ring to anybody. and the 'Dark Horse' occasionally wins the race, giving super odds to the players that backed it. 'Brody's Outsider of the Day' could work too, but I like the ring of the other better.

Another thing, changing the title would enable you to start a new thread, untainted by all these unnecessary flames. If you do, make sure you enclose the muds you already mentioned too.
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Old 02-17-2003, 07:45 AM   #30
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Informative (proper) reviews are great, and are frequently useful to prospective players. Something along these lines would be a very nice feature to have on TMS.

But such a review should actually give some information about the mud, not just say "this is a fantasy mud" and then try to get players to play it out of some sense of pity for this "poor unpopular mud". If I wanted to read posts like that, I'd go to the "rants & raves" section of TMS.

"Excuse me, Sir - do you think you could you spare a player? Our coder is sick, and our frail old builder is worn out from long hours in front of a screen, and we are only just able to cover the cost of our hosting provider with these food tokens, but we try to scrape by as best we can. Show some pity on a poor little mud?"

If stock muds have had to resort to begging to gather attention, then I can't help but shake my head in bemusement. But please, leave me and my muds out of it - I don't need sympathy or pity to attract players. If they're not interested in playing based on the quality of the game itself, then fair enough.
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Old 02-17-2003, 11:38 AM   #31
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Well I'll be darned. Anything CAN be completely twisted around by accident.

Kavir, and everyone else. Did these muds come to Brody and say "can you please mention us? I beg you!" no. He's just going around looking at muds at random and saying "this is a nice feature" and posting it.

Are these poorer muds? NO. These are just muds that don't have as many votes to be in the top 20. Some muds don't care about it (e.g. the mud that has 400 ppl would hardly be considered an unsuccessful mud) and IMO Brody is just as likely to mention that mud as any other.

*shakes his head in puzzlement*
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:09 PM   #32
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Did these muds come to Brody and say "can you please mention us? I beg you!" no.
No. So why portray them as beggers?

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Originally Posted by
He's just going around looking at muds at random and saying "this is a nice feature" and posting it.
Picking muds at random is fine - but picking those you feel are losers^H^H^H^H^H^H"underdogs" is just insulting. It's like its some sort of consolation prize.

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Are these poorer muds? NO.
Exactly. So why portray them as such, rather than just writing reviews of randomly selected muds?

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These are just muds that don't have as many votes to be in the top 20. Some muds don't care about it
Exactly. So why imply that they are somehow inferior to the other muds?
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:23 PM   #33
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Okay, Kavir. This is obviously an opinion argument, so I aint saying your wrong, I'm just saying my opinion.  

Do you agree with me, with the point that when someone comes along they're more willing to visit sites on the first page (which are in the top 20) then skip those and go to a site not on the first page?

All Brody is doing, is putting them on the first page.

I'm 100% sure his intentions were well meant (and I'm sure you think that his intentions were well meant as well ).
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:41 PM   #34
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Cool

Good work, Brody. As a player on some of the lesser-known muds, it's good to see you're looking beyond the top 20 and giving recognition to the places some or most people have never heard of before. Even one of your top muds has caught my interest and am currently enjoying the experience there.

As for others, really...if a mud Brody picks as something he personally finds interesting...has a problem with him doing it, they may as well take it up with him. No need for people leaping to defend the "honor" of the little known muds when they didn't ask for it. They are capable of handling their own in that department, most likely.

Which, naturally, brings up: "Well, they can advertise on their own, too." Sigh.

These are Brody's personal picks and good for him. Yes, nobody asked him to do it. To me, it's become "mud awareness"...good for him. There's more to gaming than just the top 20.

If anything, this helps out the mud community.

And honestly, if a mud didn't want to be advertised, they wouldn't have listed with TMS in the first place.

So, unless the admin of one of these muds Brody brings up takes up issue with him, why stone him?

Good work again and I look forward to more.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:12 PM   #35
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John, I've never objected to people reviewing muds - and I agree that it's nice to give attention to those who aren't at the top of the list. All I've been saying is that there's no need to infer that those muds are "losers" just because they're not at the top of some vague popularity list. If you want to review them, then do so on their own merits, not out of pity - because any self-respecting mud shouldn't need to rely on sympathy to make itself stand out.

So in short, while I'm all for something like "hidden gems of the mud community" which lists various less-known muds and provides a clear review summarising what they have to offer, I find little benefit in a "loser of the day" award which doesn't even tell you why the mud is worth checking out.

Of course, for those people who's muds really don't have anything special to offer, I can certainly see why they're happy to be mentioned at all.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:15 PM   #36
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Fair enough Kavir. And I knew you hadn't objected.

err....gosh! you personally objected to this thread but didn't use your mod powers to do something about it. IMO that shows integreity.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:16 PM   #37
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Brody's INTENT was never to have the games looked at as a loser, and honestly, until someone brought up that connotation it wasn't even an issue...

Let it freaking drop, let Brody continue on with what he's doing, regardless of what he wants to call it, and freaking move on, there's honestly nothing left to debate on this topic.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:25 PM   #38
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Brody's INTENT was never to have the games looked at as a loser
But that's the way it comes across to a lot of people.

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Let it freaking drop, let Brody continue on with what he's doing, regardless of what he wants to call it, and freaking move on
I've said from the start that it's up to him to post whatever he likes. I'm just pointing out that if he's trying to help people, he should reconsider the way he phrases his posts - because many people will take it as an insult.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:33 PM   #39
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I think everyone can stop pointing out things about the whole issue now honestly, the horse is dead. Brody has posted three Underdog Muds and we've already strung this out to 4 ages, that's really honestly sad...
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:37 PM   #40
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***Edited to stop the debate***
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