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Old 05-17-2005, 05:39 AM   #81
Sinuhe
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Juganothion: Posted on May 17 2005,00:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Because Matt came up with a way to make money that apparently works, and they didn't.  

And, whoever was talking about someone's own set of forums failing..if you're talking about Matt, the IRE forums have done nothing but grow.
No, they are talking about the ‘Elite’  forum that the_logos tried to start. I forgot the name of it, as did most others, but it was reserved exclusively (posting _and_ viewing) for commercial Mud Administrators with a specified minimum number of paying customers.  It died from lack of oxygen and new ideas, not surprisingly.

I think you are underestimating the impact about what is happening in these boards.

There is a genuine anger, not to say wrath, among the long time posters, both about the code thieves Medievia being allowed back on the list and about the way the list Administrator is tolerating the obnoxious, arrogant, personally insulting and in other ways flame-generating posts of one member, the_logos, who seems to have bought his way into power here. There is also a widespread anger and frustration over how the boards have generated from what they once were.

Many of the long time members no longer see this site as a community that they proudly want to be a part of, like it used to be in the old days. To them it has become a cesspool, only fit to spit in. Molly O’Hara is not the only one of the long-time posters being disgusted enough to leave, she was just the first to express her feelings publicly. Many others have followed, some of them openly stating their position, others just fading out silently.

And in case you wonder why so many of the once interesting contributors to the discussions here no longer are posting anything but flames, it is because they all left to join another discussion list. One where intentionally spammed advertisements, flame-bait and fluff are not tolerated, although it is in all other ways a free forum for sharing valid thoughts, information and ideas.

That is the reason why these boards no longer contain much but advertisements, spam, flames and fluff, although a few brave souls still seem to be  trying to generate some interesting threads. It’s sad to see most of those drown in the cess pool. Meanwhile most of the other old posters have moved on.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:01 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 16 2005,14:47)
Honestly, why would I completely waste my time and effort trying to discuss a serious game design issue here, on these forums filled with know-nothing trolls, when I could have the exact same discussion on MUD-DEV or a number of excellent blogs (that I won't list for fear of the rabble here going there and ruining them too)?  Those other forums have experienced game developers and intelligent, thoughtful people to discuss issues of game design with. Their moderators delete and prevent flame wars. Tell me why I, or any successfull game creator, would choose THIS forum to have a game related discussion instead of those?
I'm a little confused here, is this to say these forums are ONLY for game creators? I thought players were also welcome here, if not, then I'm in the wrong place!

Surely players are a vital part of any game? Quite often players are responsible for a lot of the game development, even if they don't physically implement the changes leading to development of a game.

Funny thing about creating a game, don't you normally need someone to PLAY the game, otherwise what is the point?

Sorry to stray off the original topic, but this thread is so far off topic already, I don't think it really matters.
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Old 05-17-2005, 08:21 AM   #83
Yui Unifex
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Juganothion @ May 17 2005,00:48)
Because Matt came up with a way to make money that apparently works, and they didn't. :(
Ah, good old 3rd-grade "you're just jealous" arguments. What would we do without your insight?
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Old 05-17-2005, 01:08 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jaewyn @ May 17 2005,08:01)
I'm a little confused here, is this to say these forums are ONLY for game creators? I thought players were also welcome here, if not, then I'm in the wrong place!

Surely players are a vital part of any game? Quite often players are responsible for a lot of the game development, even if they don't physically implement the changes leading to development of a game.

Funny thing about creating a game, don't you normally need someone to PLAY the game, otherwise what is the point?

Sorry to stray off the original topic, but this thread is so far off topic already, I don't think it really matters.
These forums are not only for game creators, but that is the high volume of people on the boards. I would suppose that most people who aren't developing games, are not going to gain anything out of reading most of these boards.

Nothing against the people who aren't developing games, but it's just the way things are. Other then design issues, player issues, coding problems, administration problems, there isn't a whole lot of things for the MUD world to discuss that isn't overly specific to a certain mud. Of course, we've hit on one in the last couple of days.
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Old 05-17-2005, 04:40 PM   #85
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I don't mean to interupt the flaming, but is IRE still looking for MUD descriptions for the ad space?
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Old 05-17-2005, 05:23 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ May 17 2005,09:21)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Juganothion @ May 17 2005,00:48)
Because Matt came up with a way to make money that apparently works, and they didn't.  
Ah, good old 3rd-grade "you're just jealous" arguments.  What would we do without your insight?
Look for some Jergins?
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Old 05-17-2005, 06:14 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Juganothion @ May 17 2005,18:23)
Jergins
Gesundheit.
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:28 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Sinuhe @ May 17 2005,16:39)
Juganothion: Posted on May 17 2005,00:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Because Matt came up with a way to make money that apparently works, and they didn't.

And, whoever was talking about someone's own set of forums failing..if you're talking about Matt, the IRE forums have done nothing but grow.
No, they are talking about the ‘Elite’ forum that the_logos tried to start. I forgot the name of it, as did most others, but it was reserved exclusively (posting _and_ viewing) for commercial Mud Administrators with a specified minimum number of paying customers. It died from lack of oxygen and new ideas, not surprisingly.
Gee. Like to lie much?

It was restricted to successful mud staff, in an effort to cut down on noise. The criteria for being successful was a daily peak of 50 concurrent players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
There is a genuine anger, not to say wrath, among the long time posters, both about the code thieves Medievia being allowed back on the list and about the way the list Administrator is tolerating the obnoxious, arrogant, personally insulting and in other ways flame-generating posts of one member, the_logos, who seems to have bought his way into power here. There is also a widespread anger and frustration over how the boards have generated from what they once were.
Oh, lament the cry of the martyr.

There is such a prevailing animosity against commercial muds here which has caused the degradation of the community. Almost any time Matt posts he gets jumped on by the same people who have an opposing opinion, and who get particularly insulting and nasty about expressing it.

IMO, I think that Matt does have power on TMS because of the fact that he sends a significant portion of the traffic here every day, and that he is one of the higher spending advertisers. Some people seem to have an attitude that MUDs were born free, and are meant to be free, but they're not. The very first mud was a commercial entity, and they remained commercial for some time. To this day, the most popular muds are commercial, with Simutronics, IRE boasting massive playerbases across their games. Why? Because most people prefer to play in an environment with lots of content and quality, and its hard to compete with a full time commercial developer as a hobbyist.

I really don't think its Matt that brings these forums down. I think its the seething, mindless hostility that so many posters have for him. I've been here for a few years now(I lurked for a bit), and my honest view is that if you want the forums to start to improve.. improvement begins at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Many of the long time members no longer see this site as a community that they proudly want to be a part of, like it used to be in the old days. To them it has become a cesspool, only fit to spit in.
And thats the only contribution most of them make, these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
One where intentionally spammed advertisements, flame-bait and fluff are not tolerated, although it is in all other ways a free forum for sharing valid thoughts, information and ideas.
One would think that a forum with an announcements & mud promotions forum would be more receptive to announcements and mud promotions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
That is the reason why these boards no longer contain much but advertisements, spam, flames and fluff, although a few brave souls still seem to be trying to generate some interesting threads. It’s sad to see most of those drown in the cess pool. Meanwhile most of the other old posters have moved on.
I can certainly understand that. But ultimately, I don't think the blame for the cesspool lies entirely at Matt's feet.

-H
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:37 AM   #89
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Also, just as a point to make.

No doubt someone will call me a lapdog for my above post. Yes, I've been playing IRE games for about 7 years. Yes, I'm the only mortal moderator for the boards of one of IRE's games, Imperian. Yes, I've licensed Rapture to develop a rapture mud for Persistent Realms.

However, I have played many of the muds of the regular posters here. Godwars2 is a great piece of work and I'm there pretty regularly, even though its in beta, and I speak to KaVir on there and he's a good bloke. Get him on here thought and he just turns nasty.

The same is true for many of the other senior members of the community.

Honestly, if everyone got off their highhorses about commercial vs free muds then I expect a lot of these problems would disappear.

-H
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:01 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ May 18 2005,07:28)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Sinuhe @ May 17 2005,16:39)
No, they are talking about the ‘Elite’  forum that the_logos tried to start. I forgot the name of it, as did most others, but it was reserved exclusively (posting _and_ viewing) for commercial Mud Administrators with a specified minimum number of paying customers.  It died from lack of oxygen and new ideas, not surprisingly.
Gee. Like to lie much?

It was restricted to successful mud staff, in an effort to cut down on noise. The criteria for being successful was a daily peak of 50 concurrent players.
[/quote]
Erm...isn't that exactly what Sinuhe just said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
There is such a prevailing animosity against commercial muds here
Not true at all - take a look at the warm welcome Traithe received when he announced his new commercial venture, for example. Or try pointing out any flames towards major commercial muds such as Gemstone or DragonRealms. The animosity is towards specific individuals because of their actions here - like all posters, those who run commercial muds are treated based on the way they act and portray themselves.
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Old 05-18-2005, 09:37 AM   #91
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There's a dinosaur mud? Cool.

Does gateway count for free advertising? I'm sure I could find someone to send you a reply, lol. mind you it looks like you have your hands full already.

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Old 05-18-2005, 10:09 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ May 18 2005,01:37)
No doubt someone will call me a lapdog for my above post. Yes, I've been playing IRE games for about 7 years. Yes, I'm the only mortal moderator for the boards of one of IRE's games, Imperian. Yes, I've licensed Rapture to develop a rapture mud for Persistent Realms.

However, I have played many of the muds of the regular posters here. Godwars2 is a great piece of work and I'm there pretty regularly, even though its in beta, and I speak to KaVir on there and he's a good bloke. Get him on here thought and he just turns nasty.

The same is true for many of the other senior members of the community.

Honestly, if everyone got off their highhorses about commercial vs free muds then I expect a lot of these problems would disappear.
1) I'm more than confident that if a free MUD operator came on here and acted like the_logos or Threshold, they'd be reviled personally. If a free MUD committed fraud on a Medievia-like scale (for example, stealing area content verbatim and claiming it as something they wrote), they'd be reviled as an institution.

2) Threshold runs a commercial MUD, and you don't hear flames about his MUD. (You'll see them about him, but read his recent posts to see why. Hostile is an understatement.) Flames end up directed against Medievia and IRE, because the owners of those MUDs take actions which **** people off.

3) Are you claiming IRE games aren't free? They claim they are free right in their two-line blurb, and you're licensing one, so you'd know the business model. Why are you drawing a line between free and commercial MUDs and putting IRE on the commercial side? This is part of the problem people have with IRE's business practices. Take the word "Free" out of IRE's blurbs- they'll be accurate, and people won't point out the deceptive advertising. Again, no one has a problem with Threshold's advertising to my knowledge.

3B) Similarly, Medievia could take a big step in the right direction by restoring the proper credits for the codebase they are proven to be based upon.
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Old 05-18-2005, 01:29 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 18 2005,15:01)
Erm...isn't that exactly what Sinuhe just said?
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Sinuhe @ May 17 2005,16:39)
but it was reserved exclusively (posting _and_ viewing) for commercial Mud Administrators
Quote:
Originally Posted by What I said
The criteria for being successful was a daily peak of 50 concurrent players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Not true at all - take a look at the warm welcome Traithe received when he announced his new commercial venture, for example. Or try pointing out any flames towards major commercial muds such as Gemstone or DragonRealms. The animosity is towards specific individuals because of their actions here - like all posters, those who run commercial muds are treated based on the way they act and portray themselves.
There is no active Simutronics presence on this list, so they don't get brought up. Traithe is a long time, well respected member of the community, so its only natural he would get a warm welcome. Maybe its also because he earned his stripes on SoI first.

-H
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:37 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ May 18 2005,13:29)
Traithe is a long time, well respected member of the community, so its only natural he would get a warm welcome. Maybe its also because he earned his stripes on SoI first.
It seems like you understood perfectly what people have been talking about then. Traithe is a long time, well respected member of the community, while Mr. M.M or Ms. French Sun are long time but NOT respected members of the community.

You also hit the nail in your last phrase, it is also because Traithe earned his stripes first, whereas others just stole them, patched them and cleared credits to start up.

So, if you seem to have gotten the main points, why do you keep discussing?
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:53 AM   #95
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Arrogance is unwarranted self-importance. It's when you feel you are more important than you are.

Matt (the_logos) does not appear arrogant to me in these posts. He is winning the battle for having some of the most successful muds by vote on this list, and most likely some of the most financially successful as well. On these two points he has my admiration.

It's been interesting to see the balls of reactive emotion blurt things out at each other on this list. But in the end, no matter how much irrationality is present, it seems like several people were wronged.

Medevia IV should not have to submit to the letter and for all eternity to an agreement they made a long time ago. However, if the agreement they made is no longer suitable for them, they should renegotiate it into a win-win situation. It seems fairly obvious that their mud would not exist were it not for the contributors to MERC1.0.

Attempting to enforce on another that they cannot ever charge for something built on top of their work seems criminal. It is limiting the industrious poor and thus opressive, creating slaves. Linux, for example, does not have such a prohibitive license.

A skilled laborer is worth his hire. I suggest Medevia IV cough up some percentage of their gross profits (10-20%) to those on the MERC/Diku team and restore their credits. I also suggest that the MERC/Diku team put in some reasonable clauses that set terms for commercial enterprises. If both sides cannot resolve the situation, one or both are probably suffering from an inflated sense of self-importance. In that case Medevia IV should buy a commercial game engine license, give themselves a deadline, and transfer over to it.

Making money is not bad and not making money is not bad. But it's a horrible thing when people focus blindly on one or the other and fail to have the decency to focus on the other people involved and try to understand them, and why they are doing what they are doing.

Also, if someone has a holier-than-thou attitude, you can safely bet that they are an individual with a lot of personal issues themselves, and they are trying to enforce their limitations on others because unburdening their own would be too painful.

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