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Old 12-08-2003, 03:06 AM   #1
the_logos
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A group of head admins of some of the larger text muds are starting a small forum (not at all designed to compete with Topmudsites or Mudconnector) focused on high-signal discussions of issues involving established muds with at least a medium-small playerbase. We'd like to invite people to join, with the following requirements:
1. You need to be in the top two levels of administration on a qualifying text mud.
2. A qualifying text mud is one which has a -daily- peak of at least 50 simultaneous, active (non-afk) players.

You can find more info at: http://www.ironrealms.com/mindseye.htm. This isn't, however, intended to be an "Iron Realms" thing. We're just trying to get it started.

So far, the muds represented include: Aardwolf, Achaea, Aetolia, Armaggedon, Batmud, Discworld, Gemstone, Imperian, Materia Magica, Otherspace, Retromud.

The community is only just getting started and the forums aren't even skinned yet (they're at mindseye.ironrealms.com but we're all excited to turn it into something useful and interesting. Please sign up if you meet the criteria. Thanks!

--matt
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Old 12-08-2003, 04:25 PM   #2
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And thus, Iron Realm's campaign to engulf and consume and get free advertising continues.

(Aardwolf, Achaea, Aetolia, Armaggedon, Batmud, Discworld, Gemstone, Imperian, Materia Magica, Otherspace, Retromud)
Welcome to the dark side.
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Old 12-08-2003, 05:09 PM   #3
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I'm trying to figure out why these discussions couldn't have taken place on TMC or TMS. Forgive my ignorance but it sounds like an elite squad of "the popular MUD's" discluding us smaller MUD's.
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Old 12-08-2003, 05:12 PM   #4
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No no =) It's just that the small muds aren't worth as much to mr CEO of Achaea. He wants to start stealing players from the big guys first.
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Old 12-08-2003, 05:20 PM   #5
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I can almost see this being useful in concept - obviously the members of this forum are involved in running highly successful MUDs, and so must be doing something fairly right compared to the rest of us.

But why not let people who don't meet the qualifications still read the forum? I can't see why you would keep the discussions closed when so many people could benefit from hearing your ideas.
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Old 12-08-2003, 05:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Crystal @ Dec. 08 2003,16<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]I'm trying to figure out why these discussions couldn't have taken place on TMC  or TMS.  Forgive my ignorance but it sounds like an elite squad of "the popular MUD's" discluding us smaller MUD's.
Breaking my own rule about not doing anything but posting announcements here: Because they don't happen on TMC or TMS. How many head admins of the most popular muds post here regularly? There's a reason for that absence and the consensus among said admins is that there's very little practical and useful discussion here. They're always sidetracked by people with strong opinions but no real-world experience to back it up. We'd just like to be able to engage in practical discussion with other knowledgeable people without having to deal with children who post things like (in response to us donating money to charity):

Soljax wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
To:"Matt Mihaly, Iron Realms' CEO. "
**** off you ****ing sell-out.  Free mudding for everyone.
Especially the kids.

Oh, and get a real job.
That sort of thing really says it all to me. *shrug* A lot of people just aren't interested in forums that allow that kind of post and that kind of person to participate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I can almost see this being useful in concept - obviously the members of this forum are involved in running highly successful MUDs, and so must be doing something fairly right compared to the rest of us.

But why not let people who don't meet the qualifications still read the forum? I can't see why you would keep the discussions closed when so many people could benefit from hearing your ideas.
Actually, I didn't know that was an option. I've never run forum software before. I'll look into that though and ask the other forum members how they feel about having their discussions open to everyone. The downside may be that forum members grow less willing to share semi-confidential information with each other due to the fact that they don't know who is reading their posts.

If you've got other questions, feel free to mail me at matt@ironrealms.com. I won't respond here.

--matt
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:23 AM   #7
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I think these forums are a great idea. Applying right now.
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Old 12-09-2003, 05:57 AM   #8
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Guess we don't qualify :p Have peaks of 50, just not daily :p

IMO, looking at the playerbase to judge the professionalism of a game and its developers is not very fair. But life isn't fair i guess :p There's some clubs you can't get into without enough money or fame too :p

It is a great initiative imo to create a forum like that, where you can actually discuss things without all the stupid flames and trolling going on as here and TMC.
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Old 12-09-2003, 07:37 PM   #9
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It's a valid reason to create a separate forum.  TMS keeps things pretty wide open (for example, the existence of the Tavern) and loosely moderated in my opinion.  This is fine for encouraging a very wide variety of topics, but breadth is not what every user looks for.  Specialization has advantages.  There are things that a staff member of a larger MUD cares about that a player or a staff member on a small MUD doesn't care about, and vice versa.
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Old 12-09-2003, 08:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 08 2003,16:25)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
why not let people who don't meet the qualifications still read the forum? I can't see why you would keep the discussions closed when so many people could benefit from hearing your ideas.
Actually, I didn't know that was an option. I've never run forum software before.
Yes, its definitely possible, many forums use such an approach already. Basically, the forum is open for viewing for everyone, but only registered members can post (kind of like here ). Except, you don't just give out memberships to anyone who asks using the web (unlike here ). I also would be for having that forum open for everyone to see, closed forums suck! Good luck with the whole thing, though.
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Old 12-09-2003, 09:27 PM   #11
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Not to mention you can organize people into groups. Decide who you want to post and who not to.

I agree the forum is beneficial, just like others, I don't think it's fair to disclude those MUD's who aren't on the top 10 list. It's not as if all the intelligent people who can contribute ideas are on the bigger MUD's.

Us little people have a little brain power too.

Perhaps we'll create our own type of forum then.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:33 PM   #12
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Angry

Agreed, both with the_logos opinion that there is no longer any substantive discussion here without degenerating into flames.
And with the idea that cutting out the little guys will be just as harmful to the so-called "community".

BUT, I also feel that we need a better moderated board somewhere, which won't allow the immature flaming.  If the pay muds and larger free muds are able to bring that professionalism to a forum, which we cannot readily post to, but are able to read freely...
I cannot complain too much. Especially if we are given the priviledge of reading the discussions.

I do have a suggestion for them to consider-
Have a post availability for non-members. One where people who have a question, or a constructive comment on a thread, or are simply asking for clarification of a point/concept, may submit their post on a FULLY moderated basis. That way any chance of flaming is extinguished.
Censorship? Yes.
Fair? Possibly fairer for those who wish to truly contribute and learn from each other.
The best way to do things? Don't know, but it's better than the systems we have, and a way to keep the signal to noise ratio as low as possible.
It is easier to be substantive if you know blatant flames and trolls will be totally blocked. And it's much better, especially knowing we smaller muds would not normally be able to post otherwise.

--QS
(Who would gladly give up possible advertising for the chance to continue learning and sharing.)
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:40 PM   #13
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I think Quicksilver hit the nail on the head.
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Old 12-10-2003, 06:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm trying to figure out why these discussions couldn't have taken place on TMC or TMS. Forgive my ignorance but it sounds like an elite squad of "the popular MUD's" discluding us smaller MUD's.
Following on from Matt's "I'm leaving" post a short while ago, it really does feel (to me at least) as though he's only really posting to say "Now I've created my own forum, and you can't play there!". A sort of variation on the old "disgruntled ex-player creates their own mud" theme.

Of course it's his right to do just that, but I'm still not quite sure why he's posting it here when he's already established the invite list - other than to rub TMS posters noses in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
It's not as if all the intelligent people who can contribute ideas are on the bigger MUD's.
Well don't forget about the MUD-DEV mailing list - IMO a far better alternative to Matts new forums. Those who are currently developing the new generation of cutting-edge muds are not going to qualify for membership of this new forum, while those running ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years will, and it is the former who (for me at least) provide the most thought-provoking discussion.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:14 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by
Following on from Matt's "I'm leaving" post a short while ago, it really does feel (to me at least) as though he's only really posting to say "Now I've created my own forum, and you can't play there!". A sort of variation on the old "disgruntled ex-player creates their own mud" theme.
Even if that really was his intention, (which I doubt) can you really blame him for it, after the way he's been treated here? From what i've seen, 99% of the time he posts something, it's almost immediately jumped on by various others making personal attacks, accusing him of something, displaying open hatred for his business policy, etc.

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while those running ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years will, and it is the former who (for me at least) provide the most thought-provoking discussion.
I hope you'll forgive me for correcting you, but out of the muds listed for membership in Matt's announcement:

1 is an actual Diku - Armageddon

1 is a ROM (for now), which I guess you could call a Diku too if you wanted. Aardwolf would not fall under the category you describe, though, and will be a custom codebase in a year or two, likely.

3 are Custom LP MUD codebases

5 others are various other non-Diku custom codebases

1 isn't even a MUD - Otherspace is on a PennMUSH codebase

Maybe you should do some better fact-checking before you post. Or at least come up with some more convincing reasons why people would want to discuss on MUD-DEV.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Even if that really was his intention, (which I doubt) can you really blame him for it, after the way he's been treated here? From what i've seen, 99% of the time he posts something, it's almost immediately jumped on by various others making personal attacks, accusing him of something, displaying open hatred for his business policy, etc.
I'm afraid he brought much of that upon himself with his self-admitted trolling. When you consider how many of his posts where little more than veiled attacks on other posters here, it's hardly surprising when some of those people decide to hold a grudge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I hope you'll forgive me for correcting you
Of course, but in this case you've done no correcting. Please at least do me the courtesy of reading what I post before replying to it.

What I stated was "Those who are currently developing the new generation of cutting-edge muds are not going to qualify for membership of this new forum, while those running ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years will". And that statement is absolutely true.

Quote:
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1 isn't even a MUD - Otherspace is on a PennMUSH codebase
A MUSH is, in fact, a MUD. The above also helps explain why Brody decided to leave TMS...
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Old 12-10-2003, 11:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Deathwing @ Dec. 10 2003,15:14)
Even if that really was his intention, (which I doubt)  can you really blame him for it, after the way he's been treated here? From what i've seen, 99% of the time he posts something, it's almost immediately jumped on by various others making personal attacks, accusing him of something, displaying open hatred for his business policy, etc.
Not starting the controversies over again, I notice that this only happens when Matt posts to the legal forum or the tavern.

The Advanced Mud concepts forum is, on TMS, the kind of place for discussions advancing Mud-Dev Matt claims to seek, and unsurprisingly, his only participation there didn't attract any flames.

So pretending in-depth discussion about new directions for mudding are impossible here tends, in my eyes, to support KaVir's (and others&#39 interpretation of this latest move.

Anyway, with coding my own MUD and no firm target even for alpha, I'm currently no way near the stage where issues pertaining to running large MUDs might become a concern, I am coding for a probably tiny niche of players and for my own private enjoyment, I don't intend to go commercial, and success isn't merely measured by size in my eyes, so I'll happily give the new forums a pass.
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Old 12-10-2003, 11:15 AM   #18
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Well, I've just recently joined the MUD-Dev list, and it seems to hold some valuable discussion so far.

Still I think an alternate forum for MUD Development that doesn't single out those who are still learning and developing their -own- MUD's, would be even more beneficial. And I really dislike the idea that my MUD is less significant or that I have less to contribute because I either don't have 50 players on average, or I'm still in development.

So we'll see what happens. If anything it'd give me another project to work on.
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Old 12-10-2003, 12:08 PM   #19
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Of course it's his right to do just that, but I'm still not quite sure why he's posting it here when he's already established the invite list - other than to rub TMS posters noses in it.
I assume it's to give the opportunity for other qualifying MUDs to make themselves known.
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Old 12-10-2003, 01:08 PM   #20
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I'm afraid he brought much of that upon himself with his self-admitted trolling.  When you consider how many of his posts where little more than veiled attacks on other posters here, it's hardly surprising when some of those people decide to hold a grudge.
Two wrongs still don't make a right, no matter how angry you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
What I stated was "Those who are currently developing the new generation of cutting-edge muds are not going to qualify for membership of this new forum, while those running ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years will".  And that statement is absolutely true.
I understood you perfectly fine. I think it's silly, though, to assume that there wouldn't be some sort of screening process to stop "ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years" from joining. Especially with how exclusive you all seem to think this new forum is being/will be.

And again, none of the members listed seems to be an ancient, stagnant Diku, so there seems to be even less of a base for that sort of comment.

Quote:
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A MUSH is, in fact, a MUD.  The above also helps explain why Brody decided to leave TMS...
I don't think there was much ambiguity there that I need you to explain, thanks
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