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Old 12-10-2003, 12:44 PM   #21
KaVir
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Two wrongs still don't make a right, no matter how angry you are.
Don't you think that's a rather two-faced viewpoint? When Matt goes around insulting other people, you say "can you really blame him for it, after the way he's been treated here?", yet when those people give him the same back, it's "two wrongs don't make a right".

Matt deliberately trolled these forums and offended a lot of people, and it would be naive not to expect some of those people to hold a grudge. What goes around, comes around.

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I think it's silly, though, to assume that there wouldn't be some sort of screening process to stop "ancient Diku muds that haven't changed for years" from joining
So, apparently, do quite a few of us. But that's what Matt appears to have done, and that's his right. However it's also our right to comment on it.

A team of developers creating a next generation mud with cutting-edge technology will not qualify for his forum, while the girl (or boy) who's been given an implementor position on her boyfriend's old stock Diku with a 50+ playerbase will. Which would you rather hold discussions with?

That is why I prefer MUD-DEV - everyone is welcome, and the signal/noise ratio is maintained through strict moderation. In fact, the Advanced Mud Concepts forum on here is handled exactly the same way.
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Old 12-10-2003, 12:51 PM   #22
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According to statements made by themselves, some of the Muds joining this new 'closed' discussion list, intend to not take part in any discussions on the Forums here any longer. They DO however still intend to use these Forums to post promotions, advertisments and announcements about their games.

Does this not bother anyone but me? There is an expression for people that just take without giving anything in return;  'skimming the cream off the milk'. Or, to put it more bluntly, 'sponging'.

Wouldn't it have been a bit more fitting, if the people, who obviously look on other posters on these boards with such disdain, left the boards completely?

This community once was about contributing and sharing. The discussions on these boards were once interesting and intense. They could sometimes be heated, but the tone, with a few exceptions,  was generally civil. Trolling was very rare. People on these boards once respected the opinions and knowledge of others. There also was a general respect for other peoples work, and ethics and morals still seemed to mean something to most posters.

Why this has all changed lately can be debated. In my opinion at least some of the fault lies with the person who is now complaining the loudest. He set the tone, others followed.

I for one have not given up hope on these boards, and I have no intention of leaving.  Since I have been here almost from the start, I know for certain that several posters here have intelligent and interesting contributions to make about our mutual interest, the creation and development of Muds, although they may not have been very vocal in the last year or so.

Competence in my eyes is neither measured by the size of your playerbase, nor by how much money you can make from your mud. Many Administrators of small muds are extremely good at what they are doing, and many experimental Muds have far more interesting things to offer than those that just cater for quantity.

A fact is however, that free Muds and commercial Muds have rather different goals. And consequently it is perhaps not such a bad thing if the bigger commercials withdraw to their own 'Exclusive Discussion Club'. Perhaps if in the future there are less threads here about purely materialistic things and more about coding, building and administrating muds, the boards could be restored to what they once were, before the decay set in.
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Old 12-10-2003, 12:53 PM   #23
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Don't you think that's a rather two-faced viewpoint?  When Matt goes around insulting other people, you say "can you really blame him for it, after the way he's been treated here?", yet when those people give him the same back, it's "two wrongs don't make a right"
Well, Kavir, as you can probably tell by my account creation date, I haven't really been on these forums all that long. I shall poke around some, but please feel free to PM me links with pointers to some of the horrible things he's said, and i'll gladly take that into account.

Failing that, I can only go on what i've seen in the time i've been here. And I still maintain the viewpoint that whatever else has gone on, it's got to stop somewhere.
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Old 12-10-2003, 01:30 PM   #24
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Hmm, I wonder if you could graph the implosion that will happen in a year to that forum. TMS and TMC's forums have perservered somewhat, I think, because the member list is so large, and thus big flaming discussions don't affect everyone, but essentially, I think most MUDers and MUD owners are too prideful to hold up a real community. Oh well, community doesn't matter in the short term at least. No community, though, and in ten (or fewer) years, most MUDs will stagnate because there's no place for new players to find new MUDs.

Whee.
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Old 12-10-2003, 01:48 PM   #25
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Hi there Molly! And guess what - you're wrong. I've wanted a reason to say that to someone all week, and you got picked!

I'll now explain:

First, I acknowledge that your opinion is jut that, and not based on any actual facts. Just as mine is mine, not based on them either.

I'm not a mud admin, and I haven't been a staffer for any game for awhile now. I'm just a player, and I leave it to the game's admin to actively do their promoting. You'll notice that with the exception of a few posts this week, I rarely post anymore.

Is that because of Matt? Is it because of commercial games making noise? Nah. It's because of posers and flamers and people who say one thing, then recant and claim they meant another when someone calls them on it. Such as you've done in the past making veiled snide remarks about pay-to-play games, and then saying "Oh I didn't mean that!"

So you're wrong about why people aren't contributing other than a bunch of flamers and lamers. It's because - the flamers and lamers are louder, and the rest of us don't want to deal with it. So we sit back and watch, and hopefully get a laugh out of the whole thing.

As for sponging goes, meh. Call me a sponge. Doesn't bother me a bit. I get lots from this website, and I rarely contribute a thing other than the occasional post in a debate such as this. If it bothers you that much that I'm such a leech, um..tough, I guess. I ain't leaving just because my existence offends your delicate sensitivities.

Regarding the exclusive forum being created, you mentioned:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A fact is however, that free Muds and commercial Muds have rather different goals. And consequently it is perhaps not such a bad thing if the bigger commercials withdraw to their own 'Exclusive Discussion Club'. Perhaps if in the future there are less threads here about purely materialistic things and more about coding, building and administrating muds, the boards could be restored to what they once were, before the decay set in.
If you'd taken a few minutes to actually read the information Matt presented, you'd see that there are many games being represented by the list, most of which are _NOT_ commercial. Further, I know of one commercial company in particular that meets the qualifications for the discussion group, which isn't a member of it. I imagine there are plenty of others as well.

Personally, I have no stake in whether or not the new discussion project succeeds or fails. But I've noticed that Matt has not taken potshots at other ventures lately, EXCEPT when he's been thrown up with his back against the wall.

To KaVir - you gave me a chance to chill out when I first came aboard and started going nuts with my trolling, because I didn't know any better and refused to accept that this isn't happy fun-land. Matt *seems* to have been doing the same lately. How about giving him the benefit of the doubt and stop taking potshots at him every time he posts anything, anywhere, about anything?

Or, do you enjoy putting his back up against the wall, simply because you know you can? Or, are you sincerely hoping to drive him away? Because if you are, you'll be driving away some of his player base as well..and those are the people this forum was designed for in the first place. Fans of Muds.
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Old 12-10-2003, 02:23 PM   #26
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This community once was about contributing and sharing. The discussions on these boards were once interesting and intense. They could sometimes be heated, but the tone, with a few exceptions, was generally civil. Trolling was very rare. People on these boards once respected the opinions and knowledge of others. There also was a general respect for other peoples work, and ethics and morals still seemed to mean something to most posters.
I don't think the community has changed at all. It seems to me that people just remember the past fondly. People have been complaining about twink players for at least 15 years now, they've been complaining about kids running stock muds for 10+ years, and they've been flaming each other for 4000+ years.

Top Mud Sites isn't old enough to warrant this perception that "so much has changed since the begining".

Here's a post from KaVir on May 2002 (Advanced MUD Concepts):

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Please note that "Me too" posts are not welcome here. I encourage you all to add your thoughts and feelings - and particularly your suggestions and insights - in response to posts made here. These can be positive or negative, but they must at least be constructive - a post which simply agrees or disagrees will be deleted.

We seem to have sunk to an all-time low in terms of posting quality since the move to these new forums. I cannot speak for the other forums, as I only moderate here and Legal Issues. However I'm going to try and pull the two forums that I moderate out of the "mud" (pun intended) and try to get us back to a decent signal/noise ratio.
That was over a year ago. If we could go back even farther in time when TMS had a different board system we would see the exact same stuff we see today.

I'd recommend browsing through the old posts and checking to see if there really was a difference back then, I can't find one.
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Old 12-10-2003, 02:28 PM   #27
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These boards haven't changed, there's always been flamers and people who take any excuse to bash as long as I can remember it. The same goes for most lightly-moderated boards on the Internet (for example, most MUD newsgroups).

Don't lump all of the MUDs who joined the list into the "we hate you so we're going over here" group. Some of them probably just wanted to see what the others were up to.

As far as certain people inciting arguments against themselves: arrogance is very annoying. Publicizing your game is one thing; insulting other games in the process and talking about how much money you're making and how better your game is than everyone else's, even if it's "true" in your eyes, is not. It's pretty #### arrogant, and that's going to tick anyone off. Some are just better than keeping their mouths shut than others.
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Old 12-10-2003, 04:16 PM   #28
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Just thought I'd mention that over on www.mudplanet.org the forums there seem to be devoid of the flaming and trolling. Although they may not be fabulously popular with the masses, it's all been pretty friendly from the beginning.

We've noticed that there seems to be less of this sort of thing just because the forums require registration before viewing. I'm not sure why this is, but perhaps people feel more accountable if they have to provide info before being able to even see the board.

The forums are open to anyone who wishes to register as well.
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Old 12-10-2003, 05:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 10 2003,12:44)
A team of developers creating a next generation mud with cutting-edge technology will not qualify for his forum, while the girl (or boy) who's been given an implementor position on her boyfriend's old stock Diku with a 50+ playerbase will.  Which would you rather hold discussions with?
Well that depends, KaVir.

Assume the following issues, for example:

* Attracting and securing investment.
* Advertising: What places work, what places don't.
* Server Co-Location, T-1 leasing, etc.
* Server manufacturers.
* Legal Issues: copyright, trademark, patent, etc.
* Security: Maintaining a good security plan, setting up firewalls, etc.

I think I would find it more beneficial to discuss issues like the above with people who have DONE those things and have had to deal with those issues on a large scale.

From what I have read, The Mind's Eye does not sound like a forum that focusses on coding issues or micro issues of game design. It seems to focus a lot more on macro issues that involve large game management, business related issues, and such large matters as I listed above.

The problem with opening up discussions like that to everyone is not only having to sort through the flames and trolls, but having to sort through the BS from know-it-alls with absolutely zero experience. For example, the fact that someone's 6 person mud has had no problems with their shared hosting package at Mom & Pop Server Hosting, Inc. is really not a piece of information that is very valuable to people who need mission critical reliability in their server hosting.

I would agree with you 100% if the focus of the forum was on discussing ground breaking game development ideas, advanced mud features, etc. But it does not sound like that is the goal.

For issues more related to game design, features, or just community chat, I think TMS is still the best mud community site around.
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Old 12-10-2003, 05:28 PM   #30
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There are many muds out there who don't meet the capacity requirements not out of any lack on the muds part, but because they belong to a smaller subset of gamers.  Muds that are tightly bound to a specifc obscure theme for example, or muds that have high standards.  Several of these are run by very experienced staff. To say that your mud must meet a certain popularity requirement unnecessarily limits the number of experienced admins who could give valuable feedback to such a forum.
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Old 12-10-2003, 05:47 PM   #31
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Muds with representatives recently added to Mindseye:
Threshold, Islands of Myth (formerly Red Dragon), Feudal Realms, Discworld, Necromium, and Carrion Fields. I urge you to join if you meet the requirements. Who knows if the group will survive (there may not be enough traffic with the requirements for membership) but it's worth a try.

As regards the earlier discussion about opening the list to being read by all, the current group members came down heavily on the side of "no" for a couple reasons:
1. We may discuss things we don't wish our respective playerbases to read. There's nothing nefarious there, but if we're discussing a design problem or an upcoming event we would like to be able to share information with each other and know that it's unlikely too many people outside of the membership list will ever see it.
2. We don't really want to deal with the inevitable bitter types who will copy posts from there and repost them here or on TMC in order to flame a poster.

Sorry, but human nature dictates the purpose of the group cannot be fulfilled if we allow open read access. I understand this is disappointing to some people (and no doubt those who seek any excuse to attack me will continue to babble) but please understand that it's not an attempt to be exclusionary for the sake of being exclusionary: It's an attempt to create a group specifically for the needs/desires of administrators of larger muds, which are somewhat different from smaller ones. 50 is an arbitrary number but then any number we picked would be fairly arbitrary. The only other solution we could come up with was hand-picking people but that smacks of potential unfairness as whoever is doing the hand-picking is going to have biases. (Voting isn't really an option as it's too unwieldy.)

Now, I understand some of you are likely to still say, "But I'm not an idiot just because I don't run a larger mud." No one is calling you an idiot, or incompetent, or anything of the like. However, if you don't actually run a large mud you've not got much to contribute to a forum that is specifically for the concerns of larger muds. Experience in whatever we're discussing is what matters to us and if you don't have the experience of running a larger mud then there's not much reason to have you in the forum.

Sorry to disappoint anyone but that's how it's going to be for now at least. Join us, grow your mud and join us, wish us luck, or heck, go ahead and curse us out. Every post attacking this group validates the reasoning behind why we made the group in the first place, and, in fact, the attacks in this thread are the primary reason that certain group members are VERY against open access (and I'm slightly more ambivalent about it than a couple of other group members).

--matt
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Old 12-10-2003, 05:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rhuarc @ Dec. 10 2003,17:28)
To say that your mud must meet a certain popularity requirement unnecessarily limits the number of experienced admins who could give valuable feedback to such a forum.
What if the topic of discussion is how to run a large mud?

What if the topic is one of the things I listed in reply to KaVir?

What if the topic is how to maintain a sense of community even when your game reaches hundreds of concurrent users?

Would someone running a small mud be able to provide valuable experience on those matters?

Do you feel insulted by every group or organization that excludes you because you do not fit their membership requirements? Should english majors be mad that they are not allowed to join IEEE?

Really, there is way too much being made about this. How can so many people be so unable or unwilling to accept that large and/or commercial muds face unique issues that other muds do not face? Isn't this obvious?
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Old 12-10-2003, 07:19 PM   #33
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Note, though, that while administrating large MUDs is completely away from my domain of competencies, mission-critical service availability is something I deal with daily in my job - on the service provider side.

This is typically the kind of real-world experience which could benefit certain large-scale MUDs within the realm of their specific issues. To take your English major example, a linguist might actually be of help to the W3 Consortium...

Anyway, enjoy yourselves.
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Old 12-10-2003, 07:46 PM   #34
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I've joined the forum being discussied. I also read and post to MUD-Dev (which I think any good Mud developer should definitely be subscribed to), and I read these forums, as well as occasionally posting. I read Imaginary Realities when it was being produced, and went so far as to briefly work on the MUD Journal. Periodically I do random google searches on MUDs, or poke around on gamesites. In short, I look for discussion regarding MUDs wherever I can because the more information/discussion/exhange there is, the better, at least in my opinion. Show me a message board with good content and I'm there.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Dec. 10 2003,17:52)
What if the topic of discussion is how to run a large mud?

What if the topic is one of the things I listed in reply to KaVir?

What if the topic is how to maintain a sense of community even when your game reaches hundreds of concurrent users?

Would someone running a small mud be able to provide valuable experience on those matters?

Do you feel insulted by every group or organization that excludes you because you do not fit their membership requirements? Should english majors be mad that they are not allowed to join IEEE?

Really, there is way too much being made about this. How can so many people be so unable or unwilling to accept that large and/or commercial muds face unique issues that other muds do not face? Isn't this obvious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
A group of head admins of some of the larger text muds are starting a small forum (not at all designed to compete with Topmudsites or Mudconnector) focused on high-signal discussions of issues involving established muds with at least a medium-small playerbase.
Nothing in this statement of the supposed purpose of this group lends itself to the idea that only topics concerning large or commercial muds will be discussed.   There are many, many issues involved in running a mud, large or small. And many of those issues have nothing to do with the popularity of the mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Assume the following issues,for example:

* Attracting and securing investment.
* Advertising: What places work, what places don't.
* Server Co-Location, T-1 leasing, etc.
* Server manufacturers.
* Legal Issues: copyright, trademark, patent, etc.
* Security: Maintaining a good security plan, setting up firewalls, etc.

I think I would find it more beneficial to discuss issues like the above with people who have DONE those things and have had to deal with those issues on a large scale.
 If this is the reply to Kavir you are referring to,... What, do you think that only an admin of a popular mudsite has this type of experience?  What about those of us who consult for a living? I certainly have considerable knowledge about co-location facilities, T1s, firewalls, setting up load balanced servers,  server hardware, etc.  I've also worked as a professional 3d game developer as a lead c++ programmer so I know a good bit about game design, copyrights, licensing third-party 'middleware', etc.

Look, all I was trying to say is that the single requirement that a mud have an avg. online presence of 50+ players is too limiting.  You have *no* idea who some of these mud implementors are, what they do for a living or what kind of experience they have.  

Further, i was not at all insulted by the original post, you go do whatever you like, I have no time for yet another forum anyway nor any interest in joining yet another 'high-signal' 'advanced' mud forum.  I was just commenting that I believe the group is limiting it's options unnecessarily.
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Old 12-10-2003, 11:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rhuarc @ Dec. 11 2003,08:06)
If this is the reply to Kavir you are referring to,... What, do you think that only an admin of a popular mudsite has this type of experience? What about those of us who consult for a living? I certainly have considerable knowledge about co-location facilities, T1s, firewalls, setting up load balanced servers, server hardware, etc. I've also worked as a professional 3d game developer as a lead c++ programmer so I know a good bit about game design, copyrights, licensing third-party 'middleware', etc.

Look, all I was trying to say is that the single requirement that a mud have an avg. online presence of 50+ players is too limiting. You have *no* idea who some of these mud implementors are, what they do for a living or what kind of experience they have.
Can you think of any alternatives that will filter out the trolls and people with very little experience, yet not take up large amounts of the moderators time?
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Old 12-11-2003, 12:00 AM   #37
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6-->
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rhuarc @ Dec. 10 2003,22[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6)]Look, all I was trying to say is that the single requirement that a mud have an avg. online presence of 50+ players is too limiting.  You have *no* idea who some of these mud implementors are, what they do for a living or what kind of experience they have.  

Further, i was not at all insulted by the original post, you go do whatever you like, I have no time for yet another forum anyway nor any interest in joining yet another 'high-signal' 'advanced' mud forum.  I was just commenting that I believe the group is limiting it's options unnecessarily.
What is your proposed list of membership requirements that will still result in keeping away the flamers, trolls, no-experience know-it-alls, and people who do not have experience running a large network based application like a large game?

Are you so certain that people would not complain about whatever set of requirements you thought up?
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Old 12-11-2003, 03:53 AM   #38
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Just get along, grow a pbase and join when you can Our pbase isn't large enough (yet), but when we get large, i would love to discuss with other large games all the problems that might arise with having more players.

We'll just wait while we grow. Not a big deal. Can't see why people need to make a fuzz about it...
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Old 12-11-2003, 04:51 AM   #39
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Could we just bring this puerile thread to a close please it really isn’t going anywhere. If a group of people wish to establish a new select forum then surely that is their business, not that I can personally see any lasting value in it.

It’s all well and good to shriek in the first instance ‘why can’t we be a part’ but to be honest my initial thought was, based on creative and intellectual quality of the posts I’ve seen by a number of the members, ‘why would I want to be a part’. It all seems a bit like walking with dinosaurs to me - stagnating muds talking about tired ideas and things that are intriguingly sterile, readily apparent to anyone with an ounce of business acumen and system knowledge.

If I’d seen any of these muds make any moves towards developing something progressive, original, and inventive within their <a href="http://0-29.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> over recent years then I might be inclined to think differently, but I haven’t.

I think the greatest irony that is dripping from this select reservoir of knowledge is a simple fact. That with all the founders’ great experience the chosen method for drawing attention to the Mindseye (Hofstadter and Dennet are groaning as I type) was advertising on this forum – very creative grasshopper.
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Old 12-11-2003, 04:53 AM   #40
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To Trespassor, Vedic and others who do not believe that these boards have changed.

Maybe you have just not been here long enough to see the change. Sure there has always been some flamers and trolls, but they were resonably few before. A fact is that there has been a very noticeable decline in the quality of postings since about the time when the old Forums where deleted and the new ones put in.

And if the quote from KaVir is supposed to prove the point that there is no such decline, you picked a bad example. If you actually read what he says, you can see that he is referring to exactly the same thing that I am talking about:

Trespassor wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Top Mud Sites isn't old enough to warrant this perception that "so much has changed since the begining".

Here's a post from KaVir on May 2002 (Advanced MUD Concepts):

Quote  

Please note that "Me too" posts are not welcome here.  I encourage you all to add your thoughts and feelings - and particularly your suggestions and insights - in response to posts made here.  These can be positive or negative, but they must at least be constructive - a post which simply agrees or disagrees will be deleted.

We seem to have sunk to an all-time low in terms of posting quality since the move to these new forums.  I cannot speak for the other forums, as I only moderate here and Legal Issues.  However I'm going to try and pull the two forums that I moderate out of the "mud" (pun intended) and try to get us back to a decent signal/noise ratio.



That was over a year ago. If we could go back even farther in time when TMS had a different board system we would see the exact same stuff we see today.
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