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Old 12-11-2003, 07:12 AM   #41
Jaewyn
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Exclamation

It seems some people are a little slow on the uptake, the whole reason they want to have a discussion group outside these forums is because of the types of messages posted in this very thread.  Molly's term of "Trolls" is a good one, to me the people that post messages like these are like trolls hiding under a bridge. The only time you see them is when they come out making a lot of noise over nothing in the hope that someone *might* take some notice of them.

I don't admin on any mud, that doesn't mean I couldn't contribute to the discussions and statements to this effect have been said, the point is, you gotta draw the line somewhere to try and keep the trolls at bay.  I will say this though, I suspect there are some trolls that make the criteria anyway.

Good Luck!
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Old 12-11-2003, 12:23 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soljax wrote:
Quote
To:"Matt Mihaly, Iron Realms' CEO. "
**** off you ****ing sell-out. Free mudding for everyone.
Especially the kids.

Oh, and get a real job.

That sort of thing really says it all to me.
You're making generalisations of the people on these forums by something Soljax, a well known low-of-the-low, scum-of-the-scum, banned-of-the-banned, trouble player, said?

Well that's just brilliant. That really says it all to me.
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Old 12-11-2003, 01:55 PM   #43
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Threshold:
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Originally Posted by
What is your proposed list of membership requirements that will still result in keeping away the flamers, trolls, no-experience know-it-alls, and people who do not have experience running a large network based application like a large game?
Maybe an alternate way to get in: submission of a relevant article to the list.

Or just a straight resume submission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Are you so certain that people would not complain about whatever set of requirements you thought up?
This is totally beside the point: as we recently found out, people will even complain when you give money to charity :)

The important thing is to maximize the value to the group- I agree with the people who have pointed out that you're leaving out many potentially valuable contributors.

On the other hand, there was a good point made about keeping the group small and controlled (aside from quality of posts) to allow discussion of topics that you don't want to immediately become general public knowledge.

I would worry a bit that with the present criterion, the group won't have the critical mass (and periodic fresh blood) to survive in the long run in the sense of an active group discussing new ideas regularly, though it may do fine as an occasional place for members to ask questions of each other.

Stilton
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Old 12-12-2003, 12:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Threshold wrote:
Well that depends, KaVir.

Assume the following issues, for example:

* Attracting and securing investment.
* Advertising: What places work, what places don't.
* Server Co-Location, T-1 leasing, etc.
* Server manufacturers.
* Legal Issues: copyright, trademark, patent, etc.
* Security: Maintaining a good security plan, setting up firewalls, etc.

I think I would find it more beneficial to discuss issues like the above with people who have DONE those things and have had to deal with those issues on a large scale.
Absolutely - those are the sort of things which are of significant importance to any starting mud.  Unfortunately the only people able to ask such questions are those who no longer have much need for the answers.  Indeed, those who would really benefit from such advice won't even be able to read the forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I would agree with you 100% if the focus of the forum was on discussing ground breaking game development ideas, advanced mud features, etc. But it does not sound like that is the goal.
It doesn't seem to be the goal, true, but there is always some crossover.  A mud without any ground-breaking features is less likely to attract or keep a large playerbase, after all.  Subjects of discussion might include systems which keep players interested for longer, different types of coded support for newbies to stop them leaving after 10 seconds, "popular" features or styles of interface which make players from other codebases feel more comfortable, etc.

There would no doubt also be interest in how best to handle large playerbases - not just physically handling a large number of connections, but also in terms of gameplay; a mud needs to have enough things for everyone to do (eg some of the MMORPGs suffered in that there were not enough worthwhile locations in which to hunt mobs).

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Do you feel insulted by every group or organization that excludes you because you do not fit their membership requirements?
I ran a mud which easily filfilled Matt's requirements, long before he started working on Achaea - and had shut it down by the time you created Threshold - but that is not the point.  I do not feel insulted, I simply feel that his new forum is counter-productive.  His new "bio" requirement is certainly an improvement (in that it cuts out those who fill the other requirements without being of any benefit to the forums), but it also cuts out a huge percentage of the people who could provide valuable experience.

Stilton already provided some better alternatives.  The approach used by MUD-DEV back when I first joined (you needed to be invited by another member) also worked quite well, although some sort of moderation is going to be required whatever approach is taken.  Strict moderation is how I handle the Advanced Mud Concepts forum on here, and it manages to achieve an excellent signal/noise ratio IMO.  But if the_logos really doesn't like taking our advice, perhaps he should ask his Armageddon members how they filter new players to determine which will be of benefit to their game?  Armageddon is renowned for its roleplaying, after all, so they must be doing something right.
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Old 12-12-2003, 12:39 PM   #45
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The rants on trolling brings back memories...

Someone created a "which is the best pk mud" thread (I can't remember the exact name) and all of the players from Groundzero decided to pick that day to find this forum. I don't remember how long the thread was by the time everyone got bored, but I hope there's a log of that somewhere; putting that in a help file on my own MUD would make for a good example of why the MUD isn't focused on RP or "intelligent, well-spoken, considerate people."

As far as Minds Eye is concerned...everyone's pretty much discussed every angle of the attack/defense of the forum. And in the end, everything ends up in an archive somewhere; wait long enough, and the forum will end or start to release its earlier threads, and we'll all drink from the fountain of wisdom by our masters, the Imps Of Really Big Muds.

-Visko
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Old 12-12-2003, 04:05 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 12 2003,12<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Threshold wrote:
Well that depends, KaVir.

Assume the following issues, for example:

* Attracting and securing investment.
* Advertising: What places work, what places don't.
* Server Co-Location, T-1 leasing, etc.
* Server manufacturers.
* Legal Issues: copyright, trademark, patent, etc.
* Security: Maintaining a good security plan, setting up firewalls, etc.

I think I would find it more beneficial to discuss issues like the above with people who have DONE those things and have had to deal with those issues on a large scale.
Absolutely - those are the sort of things which are of significant importance to any starting mud.  Unfortunately the only people able to ask such questions are those who no longer have much need for the answers.  Indeed, those who would really benefit from such advice won't even be able to read the forums.
I think you missed my point here.

Of course those issues are important to people starting a mud. But the people starting one do not have any experience HANDLING those issues and therefore their presence would not be helpful to the other members. That doesn't make for a very mutually beneficial relationship.

I don't think ANYONE thinks the membership requirements are perfect. But what *are* perfect requirments? If it was invitation only you'd have accusations of favoritism and elitism. There really is no system that would be perfect or free from critique.

As for the read access, the immaturity level of people not eligible has already shown why that won't work. There is a "chilling effect" to discussion when you have to worry about disgruntled jerks taking something you posted one place and posting it elsewhere just to flame you. Also, as Matt noted, there are things discussed that admins would not want their playerbases to know about in advance.

There are plenty of places already where someone starting a new mud can benefit from the experience of people who have already done it. TMC, TMS, and MUD-DEV are three examples.

The Mind's Eye is a place where people who are already running large and/or commercial games can share experiences and get advice from other people (and here's the key) facing and dealing with the exact same issues.

For example, and please forgive me if this sounds harsh, I really don't want or need advice on trademark law, marketing, or how to secure financial investment from a 12 year old who just downloaded ROM.
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Old 12-12-2003, 04:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
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Of course those issues are important to people starting a mud. But the people starting one do not have any experience HANDLING those issues and therefore their presence would not be helpful to the other members. That doesn't make for a very mutually beneficial relationship.
Many of us are happy to help those who start out simply because we all had to start somewhere - thus there are places like TMS or TMC which let us all advertise for free, while asking nothing in return. Who knows? One day, one of those newbies might be in a position to offer you help or suggestions. Wouldn't it be a shame if they refused because they didn't feel they were getting anything out of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I don't think ANYONE thinks the membership requirements are perfect. But what *are* perfect requirments? If it was invitation only you'd have accusations of favoritism and elitism.
Well from my interpretation of requirement 3 ("After you apply and are accepted..."), it already is invitation only - however there's [i]also[i/] the requirement that you have to be in a top two admin position on a 50+ playerbase mud. Nothing wrong with favouritism, but it seems like you're cutting your own throat by rejecting those who would be extremely useful to the forums on the basis that they don't also run a popular mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
For example, and please forgive me if this sounds harsh, I really don't want or need advice on trademark law, marketing, or how to secure financial investment from a 12 year old who just downloaded ROM.
However you will also be exclusing those who perform such activities professionally, unless they also happen to be top-nobs on a mud with a large playerbase. Is it worth avoiding the legal advice from the 12-year-old kid when by doing so you also loose the legal opinion of a copyright lawyer?

In summary: I understand what you're doing, and you are of course welcome to do it, but I think you're cutting out the best sources of knowledge just to try and give the impression of being "fair". The phrase "throwing out the wheat with the chaff" springs to mind.
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Old 12-12-2003, 06:03 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 12 2003,16:42)
Many of us are happy to help those who start out simply because we all had to start somewhere - thus there are places like TMS or TMC which let us all advertise for free, while asking nothing in return.  Who knows?  One day, one of those newbies might be in a position to offer you help or suggestions.  Wouldn't it be a shame if they refused because they didn't feel they were getting anything out of it?
If The Mind's Eye was the *only* discussion forum in existence, then yes that would be a shame. Fortunately, that isn't the case.

To make an analogy: donating money to charity is a very good thing. Donating ALL of your money to charity is just foolish.

Not EVERY discussion forum needs to be open to everyone and have a good percentage of its traffic made up of newbies asking for help.

Established admins need help as well sometimes on more complicated issues and it is a lot more useful to get that help from people who have actually EXPERIENCED the same situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by
However you will also be exclusing those who perform such activities professionally
While it would of course be nice to have the PERFECT set of people on a discussion forum that just is not possible.

In light of that, simply being able to discuss issues like those I already listed with people who are currently dealing with them for the same reasons I am dealing with them is something I look forward to.

If the issue was copyright law of course it would be nice to discuss it with an IP lawyer. But assuming no easy way to guarantee the presence of a copyright lawyer, I'd rather discuss the issue with mud admins who have hired a copyright lawyer than the aforementioned 12 year old who just downloaded ROM. At the very least, the mud admin in question would have advice on how to find the right lawyer (or may even be able to give a referral).


Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is it worth avoiding the legal advice from the 12-year-old kid when by doing so you also loose the legal opinion of a copyright lawyer?
In my experience reading tons of discussion forums, the presence of the 12 year old know-it-all tends to preclude the presence of the copyright lawyer.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but usually professionals get deterred when they see the kind of flame wars and trolls that too often pollute most discussion groups.


Quote:
Originally Posted by
The phrase "throwing out the wheat with the chaff" springs to mind.
When it comes to web discussion forums, the problem is that each piece of chaff can sometimes rot the entire supply of wheat.

1 troll can write 1000 flames that drown out 50 good posters who write 100 posts. Moderation is not always the answer because the task of moderation becomes exceptionally onerous.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:58 PM   #49
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I don't see why people with MUDs that don't fit the criteria are complaining, I mean they already rule TMC, topmudsites and other forums.
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Old 12-14-2003, 05:26 AM   #50
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Kael (or whoever you're an alias for), I had a mud that fit the criteria over eight years ago. I am not "complaining", I am just trying to point out why I feel the requirements are counter-productive to the goals of the new forum. Regardless, I wish the_logos and the others the best of luck.
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Old 12-14-2003, 10:22 AM   #51
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Just a small comment.

It's rather ridiculous to stereotype the majority of new MUD's as a 12 year old who just downloaded ROM.

I'm 23, I've already dealt with my fair share of petty highschool chastizing, but thanks anyway. If this is the type of attitude that this 'elite forum' is going to have towards the smaller MUD's, like myself, then I highly doubt it's the quality of discussion I'm looking for.

Happy Gaming.
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Old 12-14-2003, 11:30 AM   #52
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I don't understand what the problem is.  Someone is creating a discussion forum for admins of big MUDs.  So what?  A place for people who run medium to large MUDs to talk about running medium to large MUDs.  If you don't run a big MUD, why do you care so much about being excluded?  They aren't saying that people who run MUDs are better than people who play MUDs, or that big MUDs are better than little MUDs, at least I haven't seen that.  I don't think running a big MUD is necessarily harder (or easier) than running a small one, it is just different.

I don't admin a MUD, but I do have an aquarium, or rather four aquariums.  I sometimes read aquarium discussion groups.  There are some that are for everybody that keeps fish, any kind of fish.  Then there are specialized ones for people that have tropical freshwater aquariums, "room temperature" freshwater aquariums (mostly goldfish), tiny mini-aquariums (under 10 gallons), saltwater aquariums, brakish aquariums, and outdoor ponds.  There are probably forums for people that run gigantic or commercial aquariums (places like Sea World) but I haven't seen them.  

Sure, people that have a big 200 gallon home aquariums may seem to have a higher status than people with a few guppies living in a 2 gallon mini-aquarium, but anyone that really understands aquariums knows that it is a false perception.  All you really need to run a big 200 gallon aquarium is money, the ability to move a couple hundred pounds of glass, and a floor that that can support the 2000+ pounds the aquarium will weigh once it is full.  A big aquarium takes longer to set up, but once it is running it is very stable and the sheer volume of water provides a buffering effect.  The small under-10 gallon aquariums that are often sold to newbies actually take much more skill and care to run successfully, and by succsessfully I mean the fish don't get stressed, sick, or die.  Trying to keep a single goldfish alive in a fishbowl is insanely difficult, and probably impossible in the long term, because goldfish are very messy fish and they get pretty large if they don't die in the first year or two.  With the small aquariums and fishbowls even a small mistake or something beyond your control like a short power outtage or your municipality changing what additives the put in the water supply can easily stress or kill your fish.  The margin for error is razor thin.  Which unfortunately means that many newbies who buy one of these small starter kits will have bad experiences and give up fishkeeping.  A newbie with a 5 gallon explorer tank won't contribute much to a discussion of 100+ gallon tanks, and (perhaps more importantly) they won't get much out of it because much of what is true for a 100+ gallon tank is not true for a 5 gallon tank.  

Likewise, the problems facing a MUD that routinely has 200 players active simultaniously will be different than the problems a MUD with 20 players.  That doesn't mean the 200 player MUD is better, just different.  There are plenty of well established, long running small MUDs that do not want to become huge MUDs.  If some guy in a black trenchcoat told them they could have 2000+ players just by taking the red pill, they would say no, because their goal was a 20 player MUD and they are exquisitly happy with themselves for achieving and maintaining it.  The large MUDs aren't a better or higher level of MUDdom, the are just a particular niche with particular concerns.  That certainly doesn't mean the people who run large MUDs feel disdain or contempt for others, and it is silly to assume they do.


Angela Christine

ps.  If you or someone you know wants to get into keeping an aquarium, start with at least a 20 gallon model.  A 20 gallon aquarium isn't much more expensive than those cute plastic 5 gallon models, but it is -much- easier to maintain.  And you can have more or larger fish, so in the long run it will probably be more satifying too.  If you really, really want something tiny, get a betta rather than a goldfish. Like goldfish bettas can survive at room temperature, but they actually prefer to live alone and they won't outgrow the bowl.
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:01 PM   #53
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*chuckle*

Speaking as someone who has 4 tanks up and running now, it's a great analogy. I do about 1/10th the maintenance on my 150 gallon tank as I do on my 45, 49, and 55 gallon ones.
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Old 12-14-2003, 06:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Crystal @ Dec. 14 2003,10:22)
It's rather ridiculous to stereotype the majority of new MUD's as a 12 year old who just downloaded ROM.
Sadly the stereotype exists for a reason. (Although I'm guessing 12 is a bit too young.) It seems like everybody has their own mud now, or works on someone else's. And announcements of new muds with groundbreaking features are far outweighed by pleas for help from new admins who don't know how to add a command or something.
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:46 AM   #55
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I want to say something of my own opinion that no one else is saying. I used to post here but stopped and will probably not post here again for some time. Why? Of course the exact reason that some in this thread have spoken about. The fact is that reasoned discourse is not welcome here by some of the old timers of this community.

Oh there is lip service to it, even long drawn out arguements supporting it, but ultimately its about controlling the direction this community is headed and rehashing years old arguements. Trolls do indeed reign here, and personal attacks are the norm, why pretend it is otherwise? Many have stopped posting just to not be aggravated by pointless attacks upon them.

As far as some people making a forum that excludes others for whatever reason, I say more power to them. All the complaining that either the requirements are too strict, or do a disservice to the new forum all point to one thing.

Somebody must want to belong to these forums and are not going to be allowed in for whatever reason, or they are just being petty because they aren't being considered for membership in light of the "obvious"<sarcasm> benefits that the forums would gain by them being a member. What arrogance.

To you in the new forums, I wish you well and I hope you gain whatever you are looking for from it. For myself, the fact that you have found another niche that does things for you and your people that this community does not gives me a certainty that you will succeed regardless of the naysayers.

Be well and have a happy holiday season
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