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Old 07-29-2004, 09:35 PM   #41
Theomanic
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Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ July 29 2004,20:52)
Money != power.
Hmm... I can only wonder if you have ever experienced a capitalistic society.  

Yes, money is power.  You can play 24 hours a day and be friends with a ton of people, and in the end when you meet the guy who has done all that AND given money, he will have the advantage.  Most people consider time and friends more of a flexible thing.  A lot of people simply haven't got money, and it's too bad that they're not going to do as well.... or perhaps they can, but with a ton of a lot more energy and time.  Hopefully they don't meet that guy who paid before they can invest all that time!

- Theomanic

ed. To take out dirty christian words.
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Old 07-30-2004, 01:24 AM   #42
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Okay, maybe my comment was a bit harsh but I think you are missing the point. I might not like the fact that people who give money are better than those who don't but I understand it. Achea is a mud run by a for-profit buisness trying to make money just like any other business. The thing that I don't like is that they are then trying to say that their mud is completely free.

I don't hold any personal grudge against Achea, I read everything on a mud's website before I even bother to play and was never "tricked" or anything. I just don't like the way that they don't mention that people do pay to play and that they put "Free to play" all over the place. Though I guess this is a part of the way capitalism works, now that I think about it, many companies try to trick consumers into initially thinking that their products are free.

I guess the main thing that triggered my post, besides the fact that I was in a bad mood at the time was a post from Reyas, who probably doesn't speak for Achea in any way:
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<quote from somebody else>Then why was it said a few times that it's pay-to-play?</quote>
Some people are stupid, and/or have an axe to grind, so spread FUD. Notice that neither Achaea nor IRE says it is pay to play. Anyone else is pretty much by definition not the best source.
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Old 07-30-2004, 03:02 PM   #43
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Achaea is really not worth complaining about. Imperian is far superior to that substandard game and should take up much more of your precious complaining/debating forum space.
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Old 07-30-2004, 03:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Avasyu @ July 30 2004,15:02)
Achaea is really not worth complaining about. Imperian is far superior to that substandard game and should take up much more of your precious complaining/debating forum space.
If it make's you happy you can apply everything I've said about Achea to Imperian.

Glad to help.
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Old 07-30-2004, 11:16 PM   #45
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Take this how you will. I played Achaea for roughly 3 and a half years before I gave it up to play Imperian. There are various reasons, but chief among them is I felt Achaea wasn't the same experience for me that it used to be. That's just me though. Anyway, onto the everpresent debate about Achaea masquerading itself as something its not.

I see Achaea as akin to the shareware days of old. Anyone remember Wolf3D when it came out? Yah, I played the shareware and was like "Wow, this is cool." I mailed in my money and got the rest of the experience I wanted.

Same principle for me with Achaea, I went through maybe 2 or 3 characters, trying out Achaea and making sure it was something I liked before I ever remotely thought of buying credits. Then I realized that "Hey, I kinda like this. I want to experience the other parts of it." So I bought some credits.

Now, Achaea is different than shareware in that you don't have to buy at all to reap the benefits of the "full experience". There are several in game methods of getting credits that don't involve using OOC money. Buying credits with gold, mentoring, lotteries (I think they still have them rarely, like I said its been over a year since I've really played), monthly bardic/art competitions, working to make the game better through helping newbies in an official capacity (guiding), also I think that sometimes incentives may be offered for building.

This is because they realize the principle that Cyre spoke off. To some people, time is a commodity and to others, it is money. I had no desire to "catass" my way to what I wanted, but I wanted to learn that next skill, see the next cool thing I'd get, etc.

So yes, by all means Achaea and all IRE games that I know of are free to play. But because I work 40 hours a week, and have other commitments on top of that, why should that mean I can't enjoy the game as something I want.

Is it any better than the ton of muds where you have to "catass" your way to the top with no other option? No one told me that I had to invest 40 hours a week to even begin to see some sort of benefit.

Achaea doesn't lie about its premise if people look even a bit. If you don't look and then get all offended about it, then that's your issue.

The cup of tea principle is in full force. It may or may not be your cup ot tea, but if it isn't why drink it? No one is forcing you to partake, and no one really wants to be criticized because they prefer Nestea over Lipton.
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Old 07-30-2004, 11:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ July 30 2004,01:24)
Okay, maybe my comment was a bit harsh but I think you are missing the point. I might not like the fact that people who give money are better than those who don't but I understand it. Achea is a mud run by a for-profit buisness trying to make money just like any other business. The thing that I don't like is that they are then trying to say that their mud is completely free.

I don't hold any personal grudge against Achea, I read everything on a mud's website before I even bother to play and was never "tricked" or anything. I just don't like the way that they don't mention that people do pay to play and that they put "Free to play" all over the place. Though I guess this is a part of the way capitalism works, now that I think about it, many companies try to trick consumers into initially thinking that their products are free.

I guess the main thing that triggered my post, besides the fact that I was in a bad mood at the time was a post from Reyas, who probably doesn't speak for Achea in any way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
<quote from somebody else>Then why was it said a few times that it's pay-to-play?</quote>
Some people are stupid, and/or have an axe to grind, so spread FUD.  Notice that neither Achaea nor IRE says it is pay to play.  Anyone else is pretty much by definition not the best source.
And then you spread FUD. Thank you so much for proving my point.

Their mud IS completely free. If you NEVER pay them a dime, you can still play all you want. Despite what you and others say, you don't even have to pay to be 'mighty', as there are other, completely free, ways to become as mighty as you wish.
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Old 07-31-2004, 02:24 AM   #47
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in fact, i do know some players in Achaea that brought luxuries of credits to buy artifacts without paying a dime.
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Old 08-01-2004, 09:08 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Theomanic @ July 29 2004,20:19)
I think the point is not that doing "great" things is impossible, but more that it's more difficult if you don't pay.  And also, you say talent wins in the end... but if two equally talented people meet up, and one has paid $100 and one has not, I think we all know who is going to win in a combat situation.
Yep. That's all true. Just as true as it is to say that in nearly all muds, the guy with more free time is going to "win." Free time and money are both currencies possessed in varying amounts by different people. Most muds reward solely those with lots of free time. We choose to do both and you can attain absolutely anything in the game with exclusively free time, though many things cannot be obtained exclusively with rl money.

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Old 08-01-2004, 09:10 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ July 30 2004,01:24)
The thing that I don't like is that they are then trying to say that their mud is completely free.
I challenge you to find somewhere that an official representative of IRE has ever said our muds are "completely free." They are free to play, nothing more.

--matt
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Old 08-02-2004, 07:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Theomanic @ July 29 2004,15:16)
One of the great things about MUDs is that they run pretty much the same on most computers, and they're often free, meaning everyone is on a balanced playing field.
Balanced playing field?

So the person with no life and no job who plays the game 20 hours a day is on a balanced playing field with the guy with a family and a job who can only play 2-4 hours a day?

Time is an asset just like money is an asset.

Some people spend their time, other people spend their money.

A game that allows both means they can have a larger diversity in player base.
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Old 08-02-2004, 09:07 AM   #51
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the_logos wrote:
"Yep. That's all true. Just as true as it is to say that in nearly all muds,the guy with more free time is going to "win." Free time and money are both currencies possessed in varying amounts by different people. Most muds reward solely those with lots of free time. We choose to do both and you can attain absolutely anything in the game with exclusively free time, though many things cannot be obtained exclusively with rl money."

Threshold wrote:
"So the person with no life and no job who plays the game 20 hours a day is on a balanced playing field with the guy with a family and a job who can only play 2-4 hours a day?"

You both seem to be making the same argument:  That since success in a mud is typically based purely on time, it is a virtue for such a game to accept money in lieu of time.

I'm sorry, gentlemen, but I believe this to be a straw man argument.  You'll forgive me if I misuse the terminology slightly; it's been a long time since my university logic classes.

I don't believe that saying many other muds do something in a way you find abhorrent or lacking (time = advancement) is a valid justification for doing things the way you do (time or money = advancement).  I'm certain there are countless muds out there with horribly stupid features (or lack thereof) that you wouldn't implement in your own muds in a thousand years.  They really don't justify this either.

The truth is that you accept money for advancement in your games simply because you like money.  Perhaps you see a need for it, either to pay the expenses of your mud or purchase yourself costly housewares.  This is certainly no crime; you would hardly be the first people in the history of civilization to attempt to exchange a quality good or service for the money of others, and surely civilization has benefitted from many such exchanges.  No one rational would blame you for doing so.

But let's not kid ourselves.  If you were motivated solely by the benefit to your players and in being able to have a diverse player base, you would simply design a game in which large amounts of catass time are not a requisite to play or enjoy the game, rather than trying to tack on an exchange of currencies as an alternate to catass.  (Perhaps we could coin a term for circumventing catass through payment, such as catbuy or assbarter.)

You can build a game that doesn't fall along the traditional achiever molds and will provide equal enjoyment to the hardcore gamer and casual gamer.  From the numbers of people who play your existing games, it seems likely that you have good enough design abilities as they relate to the mudding world to take a good stab at this.  I'd like to challenge you to do so.
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Old 08-02-2004, 10:49 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
You both seem to be making the same argument: That since success in a mud is typically based purely on time, it is a virtue for such a game to accept money in lieu of time.
I'm not sure where virtue comes into this discussion. I certainly am not claiming any sort of moral superiority based on our business model. Threshold and I are merely pointing out that giving people the option to spend money is no different from giving people the option to spend free time.

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This is certainly no crime; you would hardly be the first people in the history of civilization to attempt to exchange a quality good or service for the money of others, and surely civilization has benefitted from many such exchanges. No one rational would blame you for doing so.
Of course no one rational would. Sadly, that doesn't seem to prevent some people from complaining.

--matt
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Old 08-02-2004, 11:04 AM   #53
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YES EXACTLY KEEP THIS DISCUSSION ON TOP!!!!!! So that Achea, Imperian and other pay-to-play (tehe) muds we are complaining about so can be the topic of all discussion therefore get the player flow so that they can see what all the hype is about, if you're truly upset with the pay-to-perk mud, um don't know play it? write a review? keep it on top of the discussion board to promote it? Eh, ok..........
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Old 08-02-2004, 04:38 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Aug. 02 2004,09[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]The truth is that you accept money for advancement in your games simply because you like money.
I love how as soon as someone agrees with someone else, they get grouped with them as if they are the same entity. Threshold's business model is different than Achaea's. I just happen to think theirs is also a good and fair model thus I am raising some points here along those lines.

Time and money happen to be things that have an almost compete inverse relationship. People that have enormous amounts of time to play games almost always have little money. Why? Because if they had a good job, they wouldn't have that much time. People with a lot money, usually have a demanding job (or multiple jobs), and therefore they do not have much free time. Obviously trust fund babies and the like are an exception, but they are just that: an exception.

Furthermore, it is obvious that players overwhelmingly LIKE having the option of paying for things in games that they do not feel like obtaining themselves.

Don't believe me?

http://www.ige.com

http://www.belrion.com/

http://www.mysupersales.com/

http://eqpowerlevel.com/

If the game developers do not provide the option themselves, other players will go off and form a black market to provide the service.

And why should someone else make money off YOUR hard work and intellectual property? In the case of IGE, we're talking about a multi-million dollar enterprise.

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No one rational would blame you for doing so.
I agree with you, but I hope you realize you just flamed a lot of folks who populate these forums.
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:29 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Aug. 02 2004,16:38)
Time and money happen to be things that have an almost compete inverse relationship. People that have enormous amounts of time to play games almost always have little money. Why? Because if they had a good job, they wouldn't have that much time. People with a lot money, usually have a demanding job (or multiple jobs), and therefore they do not have much free time. Obviously trust fund babies and the like are an exception, but they are just that: an exception.
Well, first of all, I don't think that statement is really that correct. There are a lot of well paid people that work a 40 hour week and a lot of poorly paid people that work a 40 hour work week. And usually better jobs give you more vacation time! While I would say it is true for some jobs, I would not say it is a general truth. I work the same hours as my manager, and we're certainly not paid the same.

Secondly, I find it a lot easier for most (though not all) people to devote more time to something, if they so choose. Obviously, there are exceptions, but in general, if you have a full time job you have the same amount of time free, regardless of your payscale, as anyone else who has a fulltime job.

So basically for your average worker bee, the only thing that will unbalance them in a game like Achaea, is the fact that some worker bees get paid more than others.

I entirely agree with the points brought up that people can choose for themselves to play OR pay, and that you can still do well without paying for the game... and I don't at all think these games are hypocritical in saying they're "Free" or whatever. I *do* think it's questionable, to say the least, to deny that the paying aspect tilts the game in favour of whoever can afford it. I don't see why people are ashamed of that fact, a lot of games require payment to play them... Achaea just requires payment to play to your full potential.

Sure, often people who have more time will do somewhat better, this is also true (and a frequent counter-arguement). But really, in my experience, it's pretty difficult to take that aspect entirely out of the game without making the game suck. It's pretty easy not to charge money.

- Theomanic
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:42 AM   #56
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entirely agree with the points brought up that people can choose for themselves to play OR pay, and that you can still do well without paying for the game... and I don't at all think these games are hypocritical in saying they're "Free" or whatever. I *do* think it's questionable, to say the least, to deny that the paying aspect tilts the game in favour of whoever can afford it. I don't see why people are ashamed of that fact, a lot of games require payment to play them... Achaea just requires payment to play to your full potential.
Who is saying that paying money doesn't give you an advantage? Of course it does: It saves you time. You could get anything you want with time, but not everyone has the time or is willing to spend the money. Just like not everyone has the time or is willing to spend the time.

And setting aside my developer role for a moment, as a player, I quickly grow tired of games in which I can't spend money to compete with the kids who don't have mortgages and car payments that require working to pay for. The most recent MUD that I've played seriously, City of Heroes, was a lot of fun, but in the end I quit because it required too much time. Had it offered me the opportunity to purchase something to speed my xp-gathering, for instance, I definitely would have bought it and stuck around longer. I'm not claiming that my view as a player is any more valid than anyone else's. I'm just saying that's what I want for myself.

Quote:
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Sure, often people who have more time will do somewhat better, this is also true (and a frequent counter-arguement). But really, in my experience, it's pretty difficult to take that aspect entirely out of the game without making the game suck. It's pretty easy not to charge money.
Sure, it's far more difficult to take the time = success aspect out, but I'm not sure how that's relevant. It'd only matter if you assumed there was anything wrong with charging time or money for advantages. I'm going to go spend some time on Ninja Gaiden now, and be annoyed that I can't purchase myself a shortcut through the game, as I don't have the time to play it all the way through. I am heartened that Sony plans to sell downloadable car upgrades for Gran Turismo 4.

--matt
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