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Old 10-09-2002, 01:28 PM   #1
TG_Nek
 
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Okay, this is my first time posting a poll, so I'm hoping it comes out alright.

We've seen the debate, let's see some numbers.

If you would, how would YOU like to see pay2play MU*s differentiated from free MU*s?
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:34 PM   #2
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This is inapplicable, and is solely designed to make the vocal minority's complaint about this appear as if they are the majority.

I do not vote in polls. I know many that are for the $'s being added do not vote in polls. And, furthermore, these options are irrelevant. Only three, possibly four, are even truly relevant - and it ignores several options that have been brought up, and are superior to the ones on this poll.

-D
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:42 PM   #3
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Smile

I can see the validity in having a MUD have to choose the payment category into which they fall. I appreciate the inclusion of a couple delineations of options: "required" "voluntary" and something that references being able to play to a certain level or in certain areas, but beyond that pay. I play a p2p myself, but do understand it's a very real concern for many folks out there. By making the MUD choose something in a specific category, it helps prevent MUDers from getting involved in a MUD they enjoy, only to find out they will have to budget for it later down the line.

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Old 10-09-2002, 02:06 PM   #4
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Sorry, I had just flipped thru the current debate thread and thought I covered several of the ideas suggested. If you point out some that I have perhaps missed that can not be applied to one of the above listings I'd be open to hear them and point out where I thought that might be categorized. Or, if I am so off base I would be willing to ask a moderator to have this thread removed.

There was no "design[ed] to make the vocal minority's complaint about this appear as if they are the majority" intended. Frankly, I just posted it to see some numbers. I see various opinions being tossed about both FOR and AGAINST certain ways of doing it.

In fact, if my interpreation of the 'vocal' complaint is correct, I'd say the vocal folks are FOR putting $$ on the Ranking Page, which is diametrically opposed to the view I had debated in the debate thread of the same-themed poll.

How many people don't voice their opinion's in debates? If indeed, there is the "vocal minority", then the silent majority who don't feel like debating could just give a simple click.

And if there are people who don't vote in polls, thats fine. I'm from America - its in most of our nature to take for granted our right to vote. Heck knows I don't. Besides, there is no necessary "need" to vote. Syn might look through it, he might not. He might be another to vote "he doesn't care". The information might be interesting to him, it might not. He might value the people's opinions who don't poll more than he values polls as a whole. Heck, if moderators of his Forums were people who didn't Poll, then I'd probably feel the same way. A person's right to be heard, or not be heard, to vote or not to vote is there own. With any right, you take the good with the bad.

And for the record, I started the vote with an "I really don't care". The TG in my name stands for the MU* in which I Admin. Its the only one I play. Its one I don't advertise in a signature. Its not p2p and its not in the top 20. I have no "hidden agenda" other than seeing this topic somewhat resolved so people can move on with their lives. Besides, its always interesting how people interpret 'design', whether it is within a game structure or outside of one.

But bluthering aside, I'd be interesting in seeing some other choices I could have added. I do [almost] apologize for the Cockroaches choice. Its a reference to an old Cyberpunk RPG choice that, for some reason, I feel compelled to offer as a choice when asking anyone's opinion. Even when asking their mat color selection on a piece of art work - though it is usually under my breath.
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Old 10-09-2002, 02:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 09 2002,12:34 pm)
This is inapplicable, and is solely designed to make the vocal minority's complaint about this appear as if they are the majority.

I do not vote in polls. I know many that are for the $'s being added do not vote in polls. And, furthermore, these options are irrelevant. Only three, possibly four, are even truly relevant - and it ignores several options that have been brought up, and are superior to the ones on this poll.

-D
And how could you possibly know what is the minority and what is the majority, besides just childishly assuming everybody agrees with you? I think I've seen less than 15 people post saying they want to classify MUDs this way. Last time I asked Adam, this site had over 50,000 unique visitors a month.

Get over yourself, you don't represent anyone but yourself.

--matt
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Old 10-09-2002, 03:50 PM   #6
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This is actually the only poll I've found worthwhile.

I'm also assuming the 2nd choice (list of icons at bottom of frontpage listing) would be inclusive of the $$$ icon choice.)  Other people did make a valid point that codebase, RP and pk can seriously affect one's choice of muds.  And a single line of pertinent icons would not be intrusive, and would simply shorten browse time.  I personally always check out the reviews and info page anyway, but eliminating muds with definite "not interested" traits would be nice.
I mean, if i'm looking for enforced RP (actor mask icon) and see a bloody dagger icon (PK?) I would pass.  Granted, a Mask with a Dagger (Enforced RP with PK) would be intriguing enough to take a 2nd look at.
These icons will result in the same decisions being made for the most part, but they may also intrigue some people enough to look at combos they wouldn't normally consider.

QS
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Old 10-09-2002, 06:14 PM   #7
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An entry on the info page that gave a bit more information than simply whether or not a game was pay-to-play would be fine as long as it was open-ended enough to provide for all the possible payment configurations that would be found on commercial muds. I think putting an icon on the banner list is pointless and is nothing more than catering to the laziest common denominator. I mean, really, you have to click to the info page to at least get the mud's address anyways (unless you go straight to the web page in which case it will probably take you even longer to find all the information you're looking for).
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Old 10-09-2002, 06:47 PM   #8
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Am I the only one that is vastly amused by the great amount of irony within Mihaly's post? Especially considering he insists that there is no "MUD Community"?

-snicker-

-D
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Old 10-09-2002, 10:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 09 2002,5:47 pm)
Am I the only one that is vastly amused by the great amount of irony within Mihaly's post? Especially considering he insists that there is no "MUD Community"?

-snicker-

-D
That's typical of your posts Dulan. Insults and no attempt at reasoning. If you can point me to these masses of MUDers that you represent, I'd be gratified.

--matt
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Old 10-09-2002, 11:20 PM   #10
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"Masses"?

Again, Mihaly, you bring the thread off-topic, and litter it with disinformation, as well as take posts out of context.

Point me to where I claim to represent masses. I never once did.

In the context of my posts, if you bother to read what my posts say, and not what you want them to say, I imply that the majority of the people who care about this subject are for PTP MUDs, such as Achaea, identifying themselves properly.

Now, does anyone here have an objection to PTP MUDs identifying themselves _someplace_ on TMS? That's what this argument is largely coming down to - PTP MUDs should identify themselves. But, WHERE should they identify themselves, and HOW should they be identified?

Other than Vrycie, at least.

-D
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 09 2002,10:20 pm)
"Masses"?

Again, Mihaly, you bring the thread off-topic, and litter it with disinformation, as well as take posts out of context.

Point me to where I claim to represent masses. I never once did.

In the context of my posts, if you bother to read what my posts say, and not what you want them to say, I imply that the majority of the people who care about this subject are for PTP MUDs, such as Achaea, identifying themselves properly.

Now, does anyone here have an objection to PTP MUDs identifying themselves _someplace_ on TMS? That's what this argument is largely coming down to - PTP MUDs should identify themselves. But, WHERE should they identify themselves, and HOW should they be identified?

Other than Vrycie, at least.

-D
It's not that you openly claim to represent the masses. It's that you automatically seem to assume, based on a handful of posts by a handful of people, that the thousands of users of this site have X position. Keep in mind that the posters to these forums represent a tiny fraction of the users of the site, and have no claim to representing the views of anyone but themselves. Not only can we posters here not validly claim to represent the views of others, but one can't even truthfully claim that the posters here are a statistically valid sample of the rest of the posters, as a valid sample requires a minimum of self-selection, and the posters here are entirely self-selected. It's why polls like the ones here are absolutely and utterly meaningless (something we may actually seem to agree upon, believe it or not). To run a poll that can provide useful information, you need to either survey the entire population (or quite close), or survey a randomly selected sub-segment of that population. The polls here do neither, which isn't a slam on them, but is an indictment of their usefulness for anything other than entertainment.

I have no problem at all with a labeling of "commercial" (though I think any MUD that takes donations should also be labeled that way unless they can prove that every dollar they've taken in has been spent solely on hosting), but the fact is, we're not pay-to-play. You -never- have to pay to play Achaea. Ever. There's just no way to quibble with that fact. It's like saying that a grocery store is pay-to-browse. It's not. You go in, you stay pretty much as long as you want (they might kick you out for loitering, but we're much nicer than that, even though it costs us money for every minute you spend there), and, IF you choose, you purchase things.

Now, you want a commercial (or pay-to-play, though again, we're not pay-to-play) indicator because you think that's the piece of info people care most about. I'm just saying, "Show me these people." There are a lot of site visitors, and there doesn't seem to be any big cry for this extra info. Just a few people posting they'd like it. Similarly, I'd like to see a PK indicator, and a codebase indicator. I generally don't play non-custom MUDs, and never MUDs without PK. The cost doesn't matter to me. A few other people have posted that they too find other information more useful than pay-to-play. Now, let's say for the sake of argument that 20 people post they want the commercial indicator and 10 post saying they want a PK indicator. What's that mean? Nothing really. It's an almost meaningless segment of the userbase of the site, because, as I explained earlier, there's no way the attitudes of the users of this site generally with the miniscule minority that frequents these forums.

I really have no objection to it. It just seems like it's a really arbitrary piece of info to put up there.
--matt
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:56 AM   #12
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If a large enough group of people want it, it would be a good addition. And if you don't care one way or the other, why are you fighting so hard against it? Sure, you do it in a way that it makes it look like it just doesn't seem that important, but you're still fighting against it.

Simplest reason? A lot of people will see that dollar symbol, and bypass your listing like a bolt of lightning, and you know it. It WILL cost you players... players who, if they got addicted enough to your game for whatever reason, might end up paying, or who might bring in other paying members.

So, the reason, in essence, is greed. If it really doesn't matter to you, you wouldn't be so vocal about it, but this has the potential to save some poor saps (my personal opinion) from dishing out more dollars to you and/or your MUD.

Personally, I highly doubt I'll EVER play a p2p MUD for the simple fact that I have better things I could do with that money... like pay someone to kick me in the head, and I know SEVERAL (translation, "a lot of") other people who will not play a MUD that has a potential cost. Does this mean required? No, so please save me the lame "it's not required" speech.

So, my vote is to label a MUD where the accept donations, they're ad-supported, they charge for usage... in other words 'not free MUDs,' in every place possible. On the voting listings, on their MUD information section, etc.

But, that's my opinion... and that's all that matters to me, in this case.

G'day.
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:58 AM   #13
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 09 2002,12:34 pm)
This is inapplicable, and is solely designed to make the vocal minority's complaint about this appear as if they are the majority.

I do not vote in polls. I know many that are for the $'s being added do not vote in polls. And, furthermore, these options are irrelevant. Only three, possibly four, are even truly relevant - and it ignores several options that have been brought up, and are superior to the ones on this poll.
If this poll is inapplicable and the options are irrelevant, why are you getting so bitter and twisted about it?

I think the main theme of the poll is, "Do you think P2P muds should be identified as such in some way?" Just one person asking the question, it's Adam's choice as to whether he takes any notice of it. From what I can gather, Adam likes feedback and this is just one way of doing it.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:06 AM   #14
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Dulan loves everyone else, but has it out for me, is all.

[editted to add a wink, to show attempt at humor]

*wink*
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Old 10-10-2002, 12:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ Oct. 10 2002,01:56 am)
Simplest reason? A lot of people will see that dollar symbol, and bypass your listing like a bolt of lightning, and you know it. It WILL cost you players... players who, if they got addicted enough to your game for whatever reason, might end up paying, or who might bring in other paying members.
Although I agree that sites should be identified as pay to play, I voted for the added sort options, I don't agree with your reasoning. I don't see the point in attracting customers that prefer free MUDs. They will not become addicted before they understand the payment plans. It is better to attract customers that are willing to pay if the value is there.
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:39 PM   #16
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In retrospect I want to change my vote to icons indicating major points about muds. That is, roleplaying required, PkP, etc. as well as payment status.
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jaewyn @ Oct. 10 2002,09:58 am)
If this poll is inapplicable and the options are irrelevant, why are you getting so bitter and twisted about it?

I think the main theme of the poll is, "Do you think P2P muds should be identified as such in some way?" Just one person asking the question, it's Adam's choice as to whether he takes any notice of it. From what I can gather, Adam likes feedback and this is just one way of doing it.
Bitter and twisted? I'm not bitter or twisted about it. I'm just pointing out it's total lack of validity as a representative sample of the users of this site. I spent lots of time studying polling techniques during my poly sci degree (possibly the single most boring thing I've ever studied), and was just happy to have an opportunity to apply some of it. =)

--matt
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Sylvado @ Oct. 10 2002,11:41 am)
I don't see the point in attracting customers that prefer free MUDs. They will not become addicted before they understand the payment plans. It is better to attract customers that are willing to pay if the value is there.
Well, first of all, calling the habit of playing MUDs a lot an 'addiction' trivializes real addictions like alcoholism or heroin addiction. They are not comparable. You will not go into convulsions because you stop playing a MUD.

But anyway, I agree. People who are not willing to pay for products aren't people we would actively look to attract, as all they do is cost us bandwidth, and the rather large amounts we pay monthly in bandwidth is plenty.

Similarly though, we're not looking to attract people who want to play a DIKU codebase, who want a MUD without any PK, or who want a MUD where bashing monsters is the primary activity.

--matt
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:29 PM   #19
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Sorry about that Jaewyn. I just realized you were talking to Dulan, not me. This illustrates the dangers of posting before morning coffee.

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Old 10-10-2002, 05:40 PM   #20
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I definately think the rankings list should include a symbol to indicate a pay to play mud.  It should be located right next to the symbol that indicates whether or not the mud offers voting incentives.  
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