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Old 07-24-2004, 12:03 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by (Swervin @ July 24 2004,02:24)
Hate speech is not encouraged on my mud in any way, although I do not tell players what they can and can not say on non public channels, as long as they're not harassing other players.
Oh that's vague.   Define harassing. ;-)
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Old 07-25-2004, 06:36 PM   #22
Jazuela
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Speaking of bad reviews (ha - that makes this on topic, so there!

Killer wrote, oh so eloquently in his "review" on Wolfenburg:

FYI, I am a veteran mudder, & D&D player since the invention of D&D. I gravitate to enforced roleplay muds, I am no pkiller,no power-leveller & no newbie. In my opinion, if TOP MUD SITES where able to screen you commercial muds from even appearing on this site, that would be GREAT! But, since they can't, it's up to players like me to speak up when disguised advertising (i.e. Juxquin's review) appears.

To which I respond:

If TOP MUD SITES were able to screen you people who don't know the difference between a review section and a discussion forum, that would be GREAT!

Alright now kids, move along - nothing to see here.
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Old 07-26-2004, 12:02 PM   #23
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Valg:
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Originally Posted by
I've found a number of the Carrion Fields reviews to be very useful in describing our game to potential new players.  Likely more than half.  They also tend to hit topics besides what we usually talk about in our promotional material, and I appreciate that they give a broader perspective.
the_logos: What you're describing sounds a lot more like advertisements than reviews.

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A sorting system would help de-emphasize the less useful reviews.
the_logos:  Which would be all of them.


No.  Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game.  Reviews are written by our players, contain both positive and negative comments, and are designed to give one person's opinion of the game.  We do not control the content of our reviews, nor do we 'reward' people for posting them.

You've made it clear that you find the combined content of all reviews worthless.  I get the feeling you'd rather have a site where the only person talking is 'the_logos', and the rest of us just basked in your wisdom and posted things like "Yeah!", "Woo!", and "You go, girl!".  I'm a member on the discussion MUD forum you run, and I've seen how well things go when you control the content.  How many posts a month are there?  (Hint: Not many.)  How many of them are yours?  (Hint: Most of them.)  How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment?  (Hint: A sizable fraction.)  Do you really feel qualified to comment on how to run this sort of website?  Or do you just feel a need to be recognized for how 'above' the discussion you are?
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Old 07-26-2004, 12:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by
I get the feeling you'd rather have a site where the only person talking is 'the_logos', and the rest of us just basked in your wisdom and posted things like "Yeah!", "Woo!", and "You go, girl!". I'm a member on the discussion MUD forum you run, and I've seen how well things go when you control the content. How many posts a month are there? (Hint: Not many.) How many of them are yours? (Hint: Most of them.) How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment? (Hint: A sizable fraction.)
You know, I was wondering why he'd started posting here again, after telling us all that he was no longer going to participate in these discussion forums...
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Old 07-26-2004, 01:24 PM   #25
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Going back to the idea that muds are racist-- I don't think that's true at all, unless you're playing NaziMUD using the DiKKKu codebase.  Because you say elves have higher intelligence than trolls is not racist, it's simple fact, much in the same way you can say parrots are smarter than turkeys.  

Let's call them specist, instead.
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Old 07-26-2004, 02:32 PM   #26
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Since this topic no longer applies to the title the author created it with, seeing as how the flame war began with the_logos give the guy a break if it weren't for him and Kavir how interesting would these things be? More informative yes, interesting not really.... With that said with no point and really no meaning I will go twiddle my thumb and continue to see what hilarously funny stuff comes out next.
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Old 07-26-2004, 05:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ July 26 2004,12<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])] How many posts a month are there?  (Hint: Not many.)  How many of them are yours?  (Hint: Most of them.)  How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment?  (Hint: A sizable fraction.)  Do you really feel qualified to comment on how to run this sort of website?  
No, there are not many. Unlike here where there ARE many posts, but they're largely noise. I mean, I learned more from one of Bartle's posts on Mind's Eye than I ever have here, despite the much-more-frequent postings here.

Do I feel qualified to comment on how to run a site like Topmudsites? Yes, though it's got nothing to do with Mind's Eye. Remember that TMS and Mind's Eye have explicitly different purposes. TMS exists for...well, I'm not quite sure. Probably some pocket money for Synozeer along with a general good feeling he gets for running a site that's well-respected by mudders. Mind's Eye is explicitly non-commercial and was put together to allow people with actual successful experience to share that experience with each other. Unfortunately, there aren't that many text mud people with actual successful experience and there are a lot of concerns that commercial muds have that non-commercial ones don't.

What I'd love to see is for Topmudsites to improve the signal to noise ratio where it was similar to Mind's Eye, but with more participants and more traffic. I'm not sure if it's possible. Perhaps we will just open Mind's Eye to more people but simply ban all flaming or ad hominem attacks (*ahem*) and all advertisements so as not to compete with the content here or at Mudconnector.

--matt
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Old 07-26-2004, 06:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jedediah @ July 26 2004,13:24)
Going back to the idea that muds are racist-- I don't think that's true at all, unless you're playing NaziMUD using the DiKKKu codebase.  Because you say elves have higher intelligence than trolls is not racist, it's simple fact, much in the same way you can say parrots are smarter than turkeys.  

Let's call them specist, instead.
How about when you say wood elves have a lower intelligence than high elves? Sounds to me like saying Caucasian humans have a lower intelligence than Asian humans.

--matt
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Old 07-26-2004, 09:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by (Valg @ July 26 2004,12:02)
No. Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game. Reviews are written by our players, contain both positive and negative comments, and are designed to give one person's opinion of the game.
That's how it should work. How it really works is... Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game. Reviews are written by our players and are designed to promote the game (except when there is a disgruntled player, then it is designed to slam the mud).

I'd love for there to be more reviews, but for the mud I play there aren't (m)any. There are, however, plenty of great advertisements
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:12 PM   #30
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I think horrible reviews should stay up. Why? Well, reviews are supposed to influence your choice in whether or not to play a mud. So if a mud has a whole slew of reviews that you think are terrible, that tells you that the playerbase are not a bunch of people you'd want to spend any amount of time with. There ya go. They did their job by influencing your choice.
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ July 26 2004,18:20)
How about when you say wood elves have a lower intelligence than high elves? Sounds to me like saying Caucasian humans have a lower intelligence than Asian humans.
Yes, in that case I would have to agree with you unless there were more distinct physical variations that led you to be able to justify they were two distinct species.

Then again, we could be taking this too seriously and the arbitrary attribute assignments represent a general emphasis placed on the individual by their society.  For example, if our society promoted physical prowess and ridiculed intellectual achievement, whereas another culture pushed intellectual pursuits to the exclusion of all else--you could definitely make the case that one was stronger than the other and one was smarter than the other, at least on average.  

It becomes an issue of racism when you say that a child from the intellectual culture brought up in the physical culture would be weaker and smarter than the rest.  With humans, the child would generally follow the culture he's brought up in.  But perhaps with wood elves and high elves it would be different.  
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:18 PM   #32
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Personally, I tend to prefer systems that may impose some preset limits on the 'individual', over ones with different attributes based on other factors, like species. However, there are often good reasons for it in high fantasy settings, where there are definite and obvious differences. But this brings up the comment I think I read in Dragon or some place, "The players are the heroes, not just the normal population. It should be expected that they don't quite fit the 'norm' for their race." It is a complicated issue and on the mud where I play it is so slipshod that quite a few races are almost totally useless, since their attributes make them incapable of doing well in every guild in the game. I suspect, due to the way the combat and other systems work, and the lack of alternative methods to really advance, that they would never do well in 'any' guild. But yeah, keep the RL stuff out of the game.

The stuff 'in game' needs to be based on in game issues, like people going around killing innocent foxes... (inside joke)

P.S. Thought I smelled a Troll on these forums Gemini.
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Old 07-29-2004, 12:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by (shadowfyr @ July 28 2004,16:18)
"The players are the heroes, not just the normal population. It should be expected that they don't quite fit the 'norm' for their race."
As true as this is, one can only do so much while maintaining any form of consistency throughout all of the systems in a game. If you allow players to just define their strengths and weaknesses at will, the majority will just min/max their way to greatness. It isn't very exciting when all of the PC trolls of the world are suddenly leaps and bounds more intelligent than the NPC trolls because a high intelligence for a troll makes for a tanky mage. People will metagame any system they can, and this has to be taken into account when designing how racial characteristics are ascribed. Certainly some degree of variation from the behavior of NPC's of the same race is to be expected, and desired of course, but this should be handled through roleplay moreso than through code support, as it quite simply makes balancing issues almost impossible to deal with, as evinced by your comment about the various useless races on the realm you frequent.
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Old 07-29-2004, 12:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by (shadowfyr @ July 28 2004,16:18)
"The players are the heroes, not just the normal population. It should be expected that they don't quite fit the 'norm' for their race."
As true as this is, one can only do so much while maintaining any form of consistency throughout all of the systems in a game. If you allow players to just define their strengths and weaknesses at will, the majority will just min/max their way to greatness. It isn't very exciting when all of the PC trolls of the world are suddenly leaps and bounds more intelligent than the NPC trolls because a high intelligence for a troll makes for a tanky mage. People will metagame any system they can, and this has to be taken into account when designing how racial characteristics are ascribed. Certainly some degree of variation from the behavior of NPC's of the same race is to be expected, and desired of course, but this should be handled through roleplay moreso than through code support, as it quite simply makes balancing issues almost impossible to deal with, as evinced by your comment about the various useless races on the realm you frequent.


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Old 08-18-2004, 11:43 PM   #35
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I have brought this up before, and I don't know if you're still talking about reviews, but I say that in certain cases a horrible review should stay. If, for example, a MUD had a slew of terribly written reviews "OMG, liek, u will LUV THIS GAME OMG!" then dosen't that give you a good idea of the people that are in that game.

For example.

That, combined with one of the other Runescape reviews (There are three- two are quite bad) would give me a good idea of what i'd find in Runescape. And I would be right- anyone who has played that trash heap (Getting a bit off topic, ahem) knows. If a game has a ton of bad reviews but the owner really thinks they are unwarrented, they can be removed. (If the owner is mature enough to ask them to be removed in a calm manor, that's all the convincing i'd need to help 'em out)

-Kenjar, he of the unpopular opinion.
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