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Old 10-08-2002, 10:57 PM   #41
Seraphina
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Not all the sites mention financial set up either in info or on their main page. I don't think of payment criteria as a "feature". It is more of a condition.

In my own opinion there are at least three designations. Payment required, payment for extras optional, and donations accepted. I think it is an important enough aspect to warrant a separate field that would be a required entry under info.
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Old 10-08-2002, 11:32 PM   #42
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Seperate listings for pay muds = bad idea. Pay muds should be on the same field as the rest of us.

However, from the point of view of someone who definitely DOSEN'T pay for muds (not because I'm a cheapass; because I am BROKE. I am SEVENTEEN. I HAVE NO JOB. I can NOT pay for a mud), a little "you've gotta pay for this" icon would be very helpful. I don't wanna have to read rambling fan rants saying how good it is then find out I have to pay for it.

So. No segregation. However, seperate listings for payness. All is good. Ninja-baked cookies for all.

~Mnem.
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Old 10-08-2002, 11:32 PM   #43
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I don't know about DG, but Simutronics has marketing deals that no free MUD could hope to compete with. Deals with mainstream magazines like Computer Gaming World, and, I'm told, Rolling Stone. They also have, or had, a relationship with Microsoft's Zone, Rennaisance Entertainment Corp (they run Renn faires), and more, to promote their products. There's nothing wrong with any of that of course, and their marketing people are pretty good at what they do from what I can see.
Rolling Stone?!

LOL! Sorry...this whole post just made me laugh.

I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about anymore. ::chuckle::
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Old 10-08-2002, 11:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 08 2002,10:28 pm)
I actually bothered to surf the listings earlier for a MUD to play, but not one of the P2P MUD was properly listed as a P2P MUD on the listings under Info. That is why. 'Pay to Play' is not specified on the listings, and in Achaea's case, nothing is mentioned on the website. I'm sure that Achaea is not the only MUD like this.
Dulan -

I've just run a check of my own.  DragonRealms, Gemstone III, Threshold, Hercules and Xena, Dragon's Gate, DR: The Fallen, and Inferno Classic all have "pay-per-play" on their info page.  (DGate's info button isn't linked properly, but the info page is out there.)  Achaea has made the case that they are not strictly pay-per-play, they just offer benefits for money; though a bit distasteful, this is still fair reasoning.  The Eternal City is the only proper pay-per-play in the top 20 that doesn't mention it on its info page.  Modus Operandi doesn't have an info page, but the front page of their website makes it obvious that they're pay-to-play.  That's maybe 1.5 deceptive cases out of 10, so no, the problem is not as dangerously widespread as you seem to think it is.

[Edit: fixed some wording to sound better. I'm just finicky.]
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Old 10-09-2002, 12:22 AM   #45
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Zulu - Need I point out, that in the context of my post, it implied that my check was prior to Simultronics listings?

Achaea is P2P. If you have to pay to have any chance at really 'playing' a MUD, it's the same as a MUD who is subscription based.

Period.

-D
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Old 10-09-2002, 12:32 AM   #46
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Cool

I would personally like to see the '$' symbol added to the front page listings, to the MUD's it would pertain to.

Otherwise, I think another nifty idea would be to have two sub-listings:

Rankings with Pay-to-Play
Rankings without Pay-to-Play

"Rankings with..." might as well stay the main page.

But if there were a link on the side or at the bottom of the TMS frontpage where people interested could check out rankings of free MUD's, that would be great.

Let's be honest, most free MUD's don't have all these people on at once, voting constantly, yadda, yadda, yadda...

And there are plenty of people who just don't want to pay for MUDding, no matter how good the game is. So, let's have the option of checking out which is the best of the free MUD's...

I mean, isn't it a given that the top 3 (at least) will almost always be Pay-to-Play...

And the MAJORITY (dare I say 95%) of the MUD's out there are free to play anyway...

So, let's have the option of checking out which is the best of the best out of those...
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:18 AM   #47
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Achaea is P2P. If you have to pay to have any chance at really 'playing' a MUD, it's the same as a MUD who is subscription based.
I disagree. I have since checked them out and started a character to see what it is like. I am sticking with Dragonrealms because I can't imagine not sticking with it. But I am starting my daughter out in Achaea. She will not be advancement oriented because she doesn't have that much time to play. Having fun roleplaying doesn't require a top speed of advancement. I have spoken with other players and it is very doable to advance without buying anything.

I would prefer to have her in Dragonrealms because I think it still beats Achaea for ease of entry, but Achaea beats all the others I have checked out with the exception of Dragonrealms.

While some of the other muds I have checked also seem very good there are several reasons I felt that Achaea, even with the voluntary purchase issue, was a better choice. Some seemed too PvP oriented, others were too harsh an environment, many had telnet entry with no suggested client or help in setting up the client. I am willing to put some time into helping her get started but I don't want to have to spend weeks figuring out how to set the client up with basic functions.

Achaea also has a very nice collection of information on the history and the gods which is an interesting read. I won't know for awhile of course, but it seems to have the right balance of ease of use, roleplaying potential, and friendly help available.

The perpetual debates on pay, optional pay, roleplaying verses powergaming lead me inevidably to one thought. Advancement is not a prerequisite to roleplaying.

There is another aspect to the debates. Some people have time and money but most people have either time or money. So, in a game such as Achaea those with time can pour that in and advance faster than those with full time jobs and families. Those who are too busy can boost their opportunity for advancement through using some of that hard earned cash. Those with both time and money will advance the fastest, but that is just the way of the world. Achaea is not the same as a pay to play mud because you don't HAVE to pay.

I haven't been to all the free muds out there but from what I can see those muds that charge or offer in game advantages to those who pay do seem to have a more professional website with systems that allow for easier entry of inexperienced mudders.

The free muds are fussier about whom they accept, some requiring histories, others not offering much support so really are set up for those who either have a history of mudding or know someone who already plays that can guide them through setting up their client.

I can understand why some of the traditional mudders find payment for benefits to be so outrageous. Based on traditional mudding principles the idea of purchasing in game status through real life money is abhorant. But these games are not traditional. They are able to offer services that are not provided by the free muds.

My bet is the reason they get larger faster isn't so much advertising as it is ease of entry. You can go to Dragonrealms sign up and be playing literally within minutes. Dragonrealms has both it's own client, Wizard, which I have used for years, and a newer web based entry which doesn't require download. In both cases there is no need to "set up" the client that is already done for us. Achaea isn't quite as generous but the Java entry is very comfortable to use. The only think lacking that I would have appreciated having right away was a logging mechanism.

Contrast that to entering a new game in telnet, and the difference is enormous for someone who doesn't want to fiddle with obtaining and learning how to use a generic client.

So, a hint to the free muds, front page news on your website (if you want new players that have never played a mud) provide a link to a free client and all basic set up information for whatever would be the most useful features to have active when beginning to play.

From the perspective of a player checking out muds, it makes a difference if payment is required, verses payment optional, verses donations accepted. Not because one type is inherently better than the other, but because different players will find different aspects more or less important than others.

While having the pay muds may well result in free muds being pushed down the list it will also increase traffic tremendously and increase the number of people visiting the free muds to check them out. I already know of some DR players who have joined a free mud (and singing it's praises for RP), and some Achaea players who are checking out DR, and I, a diehard fan of DR am introducing my daughter to Achaea instead of Dragonrealms.

Everyone stands to gain. There is no need to denigrate any game or style in order to promote the idea that payment details should be included on the info page.
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:32 AM   #48
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Okay, I have just one simple point to ponder: We don't have to alter the listings, but what harm would putting a dollar sign next to the name of the listing hurt? The info page states "pay to play" so why not go ahead and indicate that status at a glance? I don't see where it will make much difference, personally.

As for a pre-configured client, here's an idea for us freebie muds: Take Gmud32, configure the world.mud file for our mud, rezip it and distribute. I have found this allows the client to already have all my mud's information within the connect window. Just click connect, then select "Lands of Time" and the newbie mudder is on his/her way.
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Old 10-09-2002, 02:35 AM   #49
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Seraphina.....

Whatever you are, you either have not played Achaea, or you are talking about another MUD entirely.

Threads of many old and current players have popped up on TMC many times before, saying the exact opposite of what you claim. Furthermore, my playing experiences on Achaea are precisely opposite of what you claim - even the players on Achaea that I talked to with problems that I was having about advancement and PvP (PK) interaction had the same issues as I.

Regardless of your opinion, that entire post was an advertisement for Achaea. None was valid in this point. Nor is any of it true in any shape or form about Achaea, for that matter, no matter what may be claimed.

As well, you have just used many tactics that are classical of Mihaly. Irrelevant information, out of context information, and generally WRONG information.

Please, do some real research into a MUD before you make factual statements about it. And if you are merely another Achaea advertiser, please post real facts. Furthermore, please post your advertisements on the correct boards.

-D
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:55 AM   #50
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Personally I'd like to see a "cost" category in each mud profile, which contains something like one of the following:

Cost: This mud requires regular payments.

Cost: This mud is free, but to access the full game you must pay.

Cost: This mud is free, but money can get you what time and effort cannot.

Cost: This mud is free, but you may also spend money to help advancement.

Cost: This mud is completely free.
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Old 10-09-2002, 06:15 AM   #51
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Dulan, I use examples because that is the only way I know how of getting my ideas across. I am sorry I did go somewhat off topic but I felt the "ease of entry" point was significant.

Just because one expresses a positive experience with a game it does not follow that it is advertising.

Even though I wanted to try a free mud in the end it was too frustrating. For that reason I ended up at an in between site. A place where I can play for free even though it is commercial accepting cash for in game benefits. Not the perfect solution but it serves my needs. Had it been designated the same as p2p sites, which you are suggesting it should be, I wouldn't have even glanced at the info. I would have been mislead into thinking one must pay to play which isn't the case.

My expressing the apparent direct correlation between financial gain and ease of entry, (free-hardest), (optional purchase of extra benefits, easier), (p2p, easiest) was an observation intended to clarify why a player might choose to pay a p2p or an inbetween game rather than a free one other than pricing, or advertising, or where they stand on the list.

I agree with devising some sort of designation system. I don't think we should have to search websites to figure out if a mud that looks free actually is.
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Old 10-09-2002, 06:51 AM   #52
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So... basically what you're saying is that idiots with the attention span of a carrot would prefer a p2p MUD, because, like a certain ISP, it is designed for idiots?

Cool, saves me from having to deal with at least one more idiot. I'm all for p2p MUDs now. I'll never play one, more than likely, but if they save me from dealing with a cashew-brained dimwit, I'm all for it.
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Old 10-09-2002, 07:05 AM   #53
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My expressing the apparent direct correlation between financial gain and ease of entry, (free-hardest), (optional purchase of extra benefits, easier), (p2p, easiest) was an observation intended to clarify why a player might choose to pay a p2p or an inbetween game rather than a free one other than pricing, or advertising, or where they stand on the list. - Seraphina
This "ease of entry" you keep talkin' about... All the free MUDs that i've looked thru here (I'm not sayin' "all in general" cuz i know there's a bunch that i haven't seen) have a host name and port number listed which you can connect to instantly. Weither it's p2p or not, you can do this on most MUDs. Price really has nothing to do with it.

And if you don't wanna use telenet (who does?), you can even use the WizardFE that you're so accustomed to.

I'm just not following your train of thought here. What is your point exactly?
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:29 AM   #54
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I've tried several of the free MUDs here, and have played a few p2p;  I haven't noticed that either group is easier to access than the other.  The one area that I think a p2p does have an advantage is in the acquisition of hardware, bandwidth, etc.

I think that's the biggest reason why most free games have smaller populations.  They can't really depend on their players to buy new servers when the old one can't handle the workload; they have to pay for (and usually perform) their own repairs, which sometimes causes a longer down time; they are less likely to have someone available 24 hours a day in case of an emergency; they can't always afford to buy more bandwidth if the player base does increase quickly.  

I don't think any of those things makes the p2p game inherently better, but it can make it more convenmient at times.  I've played some great free MUDs, and would never judge the worth of a game by the cost of it.
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Old 10-09-2002, 11:04 AM   #55
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I don’t always agree with Dulan, but in this matter I do.
Blatant and lengthy advertising has no place in a discussion thread.

In fact I’d go as far as to suggest, that posts like that one from Seraphina are partly the reason for the sense of ‘hostility’ that some of the new p2p muds may have experienced from the more established community on these boards. Personally I detest having a TV show interrupted by commercials, and I get equally irritated when a discussion thread is interrupted by lengthy advertising. Call me picky, but I believe I share this feeling with quite a few people.

However, as Seraphina herself points out, she is just a player on DragonRealms, not part of the Admin, so her posts should in no way reflect negatively on Simutronics. (In fact I found most posts from the Simutronics people both measured and sensible). It shouldn’t even reflect negatively on Achea, were it not for the fact that this mud has managed to get quite a reputation for unethical behaviour on this and other mud sites. Once a reputation like this is established, it sort of lays you open for suspicion

As for the issue of the discussion, I generally have no problem with Pay-to-play, as long as it is not in breach of the Diku licence, and as long as it is up-front and not disguised in different cheesy ways, designed to trick the prospective customer and ‘rope them in’, before they find out.

I do however have a particular problem with the form ‘pay-for-in-game-advantages. Why? Because to me mudding is a skill game. Your success in the game should be determined by your personal skills, whether they are about game mechanics, PK, Roleplaying, or social skills. It should NOT be determined by the size of your wallet, or, worse even, the size of your parent’s wallet. That just breeds lazy, spoilt and demanding players, and God knows, there are enough of those around already.

But then again, this is just my opinion, I guess everybody is entitled to theirs.
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Old 10-09-2002, 12:41 PM   #56
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I do however have a particular problem with the form ‘pay-for-in-game-advantages. Why? Because to me mudding is a skill game. Your success in the game should be determined by your personal skills, whether they are about game mechanics, PK, Roleplaying, or social skills. It should NOT be determined by the size of your wallet, or, worse even, the size of your parent’s wallet.
I can understand your point of view, and in some ways I agree with it - but look it at like this:

Scenario 1: Bubba wants the UberSword of Doom, but he is too lazy to find it himself, so he pays Boffo $10 for it. The result: Bubba now has the UberSword of Doom, and Boffo has $10, which he spends on some beer.

Scenario 2: Bubba wants the UberSword of Doom, but he is too lazy to find it himself, so he pays the mud owner $10 for it. The result: Bubba now has the UberSword of Doom, and the mud owner has $10 to put towards advertising for the mud.

The problem is that Scenario 1 is very difficult to prevent - and if players are going to do this anyway, wouldn't it be better to pump the money into improving the mud, rather than some random player's pocket (assuming it doesn't go against any licenses of course)?

Here's a rather different example:

Bubba creates graphical artwork for a living. He generously spends about 10 hours putting together some fantastic banners and artwork for my website - for free - so in return I give him something in the game that would have taken him about 10 hours to earn, had he been playing instead of working on something for the mud. The result? He is no better off that he would have been if he'd been playing, but the mud now has a much better website.

In the above scenario, Bubba has been rewarded even though he hasn't actually put time and effort into playing the mud - however he has put time and effort into improving the mud. He's no better off than he would have been if he'd been improving his character instead of the mud, so the only person really benefitting overall is the mud owner.

Take a look at another example:

Boffo owns a popular mud-related website, and kindly allows me to put up a banner advert on his site for free. In return, I set up a system whereby players can earn a +5% exp blessing by clicking on a link to his site, once per day.

Boffo gets extra traffic, the mud gets extra traffic, and the players all get a bonus if they're willing to help out.

Now take a look at a more contraversial example:

Biffo earns lots of money, but doesn't have a great deal of time to play the mud - to him, time is more valuable than money. Buffo is a poor student with lots of time on her hands - to her, money is more valuable than time. Biffo spends some of his money so that he can develop his character faster than Buffy - but balanced according to how much time he spends playing. If Bilbo (who has lots of time and money) comes along then he gains little advantage from paying money AND playing a lot.

Thus Biffo and Buffy are able to compete in equal footing. This is rather comparable to my first example, except that instead of directly contributing something to the mud, Biffo is giving me money, which I can then use to improve the mud.

What I do personally disagree with, however, is selling things which the players cannot also earn through time and effort.
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Old 10-09-2002, 12:59 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Oct. 09 2002,12:22 am)
Achaea is P2P. If you have to pay to have any chance at really 'playing' a MUD, it's the same as a MUD who is subscription based.

Period.

-D
Achaea is not pay to play. You don't have to pay to play, and you don't have to pay to advance. Thus, it's not pay to play.

Given that the majority of our players never pay, it's hard to argue that you need to play. Perhaps the subtleties of language are beyond you, but "pay to pl ay" seems quite obvious to me. It's not the same as "pay-to-purchase-virtual-currency."

--matt
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:07 PM   #58
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Just like Medthievia isn't PTP and, thus, isn't violating the Diku license, huh Mihaly?

-D
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Scorpcrys @ Oct. 08 2002,10:18 pm)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I don't know about DG, but Simutronics has marketing deals that no free MUD could hope to compete with. Deals with mainstream magazines like Computer Gaming World, and, I'm told, Rolling Stone. They also have, or had, a relationship with Microsoft's Zone, Rennaisance Entertainment Corp (they run Renn faires), and more, to promote their products. -the_logos
Computer Gaming World? Arrh? Rolling Stone?? you gotta be kiddin' me. I think DR was meantioned in some article about Ash.. whatever's Call last month. Not an advertisement. Rolling Stone? The music magazine? huh? I gotta missin' something. Hey if they did have a advertizement there, please, gimme some directions. I gotta see this.

You can play Dragonrealms thru MSN Zone. Which is great. Alot of people discover DR there. I know i did, and a ton of other people i know as well. (*nudge nudge* excellent way to introduce your MUD to people, for those of you looking for effective advertizing).

And about these "rennaisance fairs", they have player gatherings where they have a costume night. Is that what you're talking about? That's not really advertizing since it's something done for players, not prospective players.

The truth is, DR does next to no advertizing. They used to (i think) but then decided to rely completely on word of mouth. Players bug the admins to do more advertizing all the time, so this idea ya got that DR's advertizing is far better than any other MUD is kinda confusing since the exposure they've got on TMS is the biggest advertizing DR has gotten in a very long time.
I don't think you're aware of what you're talking about, though apparently I was misinformed about the Rolling Stone bit.

Currently, Simutronics has a marketing deal with CGW where one is able to get 12 issues of CGW for subscribing. As for the Renn Faire stuff, I'd suggest you look at Simutronic's own website: http://www.play.net/corporate/release.asp?release=13

No idea if that deal is still active. As for the Zone, if you don't call that advertising or at least marketing, I'm not sure what you'd call it. It most certainly falls under marketing in any sense of the word I've ever heard it at least. Actually, Simutronics' site says that they've got or had distribution (which in this case goes hand-in-hand with marketing) with many other companies like Lycos, AT&T Worldnet, etc.

I'm not sure why some of you seem invested in "proving" that Simutronics doesn't do marketing. It is odd. They obviously do, as that's how you get to their size. Nothing at all wrong with it, though SimuBubba sure seems touchy at the mere mention of it.

--matt
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Oct. 09 2002,11:04 am)
I do however have a particular problem with the form ‘pay-for-in-game-advantages. Why? Because to me mudding is a skill game. Your success in the game should be determined by your personal skills, whether they are about game mechanics, PK, Roleplaying, or social skills. It should NOT be determined by the size of your wallet, or, worse even, the size of your parent’s wallet. That just breeds lazy, spoilt and demanding players, and God knows, there are enough of those around already.

But then again, this is just my opinion, I guess everybody is entitled to theirs.
Molly,

On most MUDs that are oriented around bashing monsters (and that's most MUDs), skills has almost nothing to do with success. Time does. If you have no life outside the MUD and spend all your time going out and killing monsters, you 'win'. That's not skill, that's just rewarding teenagers and college students who have lots of time on their hands. I certainly remember skipping plenty of classes in college to get that next level. Skill had nothing to do with getting that level though. Persistence did.

In most MUDs (keeping in mind that most MUDs are nothing but barely altered downloads of a codebase), combat seems to proceed along the lines of, "Kill <so-and-so>." That's it. That's certainly not skill.

Achaea is FAR more skill-based than most MUDs I've played. You cannot buy your way to success in politics, and you can only buy tools to help you incrementally in combat. It's like golf: If you have no skill at golfing, buying great golf clubs isn't going to make you a great golfer. Finally of course, you can't buy the ability to roleplay, and you certainly can't purchase the respect of your fellow players, in Achaea, or in any game. (Actually, people tend to look down on those who buy a lot of stuff from us and then still can't fight properly, for instance. Tends to make you look kind of foolish.)

--matt
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