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Old 11-07-2006, 11:01 AM   #1
Anitra
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As I voted this morning for my favourite Mud, 4 Dimensions, I noticed that my vote hadn't registered, even an hour later. (This was very easy to check, since the list just reset, and there were no votes at all for 4D).

So I contacted 3 friends over AiM, and they all voted. None of their votes have registrated either. I have had reason to suspect that something was amiss with my votes before, but this time it was put beyond doubt.

What could be causing it? I always follow the 10 hour rule, as it happens I usually put at least 12 hours between my votes, so that couldn't be it. Does anyone else have similar problems?
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Nov. 07 2006,10:01)
As I voted this morning for my favourite Mud, 4 Dimensions, I noticed that my vote hadn't registered, even an hour later. (This was very easy to check, since the list just reset, and there were no votes at all for 4D).

So I contacted 3 friends over AiM, and they all voted. None of their votes have registrated either. I have had reason to suspect that something was amiss with my votes before, but this time it was put beyond doubt.

What could be causing it? I always follow the 10 hour rule, as it happens I usually put at least 12 hours between my votes, so that couldn't be it. Does anyone else have similar problems?
Just a note...it's the 12 hour rule you want to be following, not the 10 hour rule. A vote only counts once every 12 hours, so if you're voting every 12 hours, you might be voting too often. Try every 13 hours, for instance.

--matt
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:57 AM   #3
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Funny, I could have sworn it was 10. Did it change at any point?

Anyhow, like I said, I generally put 12 hours in between, due to my work schedule.

So how does this vote system work anyhow?
If I happen to vote one hour, or one minute, short, does that erase all my votes for 'cheating' or just that one?
And does it reset the counter, so that I now have to wait another twelve hours before I can vote again, or does it count from the last accepted vote?
It would be nice to know, and it is a bit hard to tell, since you don't get any message about whether your vote got accepted or rejected.

I would appreciate an explanation from Synozeer how the system is set to work, since not all of us have mud owners who set up scripts telling the players when to vote.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:42 AM   #4
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Here is a constructive suggestion for Synozeer, which would make things a lot fairer and easier for the users:

Set the time limit to 11 hours instead of 12.

That way you could find a fixed time to vote every day, which suits whatever time schedule you are on, for instance around 8 AM and 8 PM. With an 11 hours interval this time could be fixed, instead of migrating forward every day, since you need to add an extra 5-10 minutes for safety each time you vote.

Small time differences of around 10 minutes in one direction or the other wouldn't matter, as long as you stay within the 11 hours period.

I bet this would increase traffic to the site, since more people would be willing to make the effort of voting twice a day for their game, if they could do so on a regular schedule.
It would be fairer, since votes wouldn't be lost because someone accidentally missed the time limit with one minute.
It would also make the ranking list a lot more interesting, since it would at least partly eliminate the currently big difference between the Muds that set up scripts to alert their voters, and the ones that don't.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Emil @ Nov. 08 2006,05:42)
Set the time limit to 11 hours instead of 12.

<snipped>
It would also make the ranking list a lot more interesting, since it would at least partly eliminate the currently big difference between the Muds that set up scripts to alert their voters, and the ones that don't.
I'm not sure how that would change anything regarding any perceived difference between MUDs that alert voters and ones that don't. I know we'd just change our script to have people voting every 12 hours instead of every 13, resulting in a net increase of somewhere between 0% and 7.69% total votes due to the increased frequency of voting.

--matt
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Old 11-08-2006, 04:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Nov. 08 2006,02:57)
So how does this vote system work anyhow?
If I happen to vote one hour, or one minute, short, does that erase all my votes for 'cheating' or just that one?
And does it reset the counter, so that I now have to wait another twelve hours before I can vote again, or does it count from the last accepted vote?
It would be nice to know, and it is a bit hard to tell, since you don't get any message about whether your vote got accepted or rejected.
I would like to know this as well. It would be nice to know especially if voting before your timer is up restarts your timer, invalidates your previous vote, etc.

I know there are a lot of our players who use the TMS VOTE icon on our site even when they just want to read something on the TMS forums. If doing that resets one's vote timer, it would be good to know that.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 08 2006,7:58)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Emil @ Nov. 08 2006,05:42)
Set the time limit to 11 hours instead of 12.

<snipped>
It would also make the ranking list a lot more interesting, since it would at least partly eliminate the currently big difference between the Muds that set up scripts to alert their voters, and the ones that don't.
I'm not sure how that would change anything regarding any perceived difference between MUDs that alert voters and ones that don't. I know we'd just change our script to have people voting every 12 hours instead of every 13, resulting in a net increase of somewhere between 0% and 7.69% total votes due to the increased frequency of voting.
I suspect he means that if the vote only has to be done roughly every 12 hours, then the player need only remember "It's 6 O'Clock - time to vote" (or whatever time they choose to vote each day), rather than always having to vote a little later than the previous day (and thus needing a reminder to avoid wasting a vote by voting a little too early).

The every-13-hours thing also means that the voting window will slowly move around the clock. I doubt any but the most hardcore of players would get out of bed in the middle of the night just to vote.

Personally I don't care either way, but I can see the reasoning behind such a suggestion.
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Old 11-09-2006, 06:43 AM   #8
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Quote KaVir
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quote (the_logos @ Nov. 08 2006,7:58)
I'm not sure how that would change anything regarding any perceived difference between MUDs that alert voters and ones that don't. I know we'd just change our script to have people voting every 12 hours instead of every 13, resulting in a net increase of somewhere between 0% and 7.69% total votes due to the increased frequency of voting.
----

I suspect he means that if the vote only has to be done roughly every 12 hours, then the player need only remember "It's 6 O'Clock - time to vote" (or whatever time they choose to vote each day), rather than always having to vote a little later than the previous day (and thus needing a reminder to avoid wasting a vote by voting a little too early).
I doubt that is what he meant, but that is yet another story.

It _is_ however what I meant myself.

What I am after is a system that makes it easier for the 'normal' voter, who doesn't rely on a script reminding them when to vote. A system that is based on the dedication of the _players_ rather than the Mudowners. This would not only give a fairer outcome, it would also increase the traffic to the site, resulting in a win-win situation.

As most administrators know, it is hard enough to make the average players remember to vote, no matter how dedicated they are, unless you hassle them constantly, or provide them with elaborate tools like the 'Ivoted' script, which most of the games among the top 10 probably are utilising.

As it is, I only vote once a day myself, because I don't really fancy keeping track of a time frame that is moving about 5 minutes or more forwards each time I click the vote button.

I would probably vote twice a day, if I could do so at reasonably fixed times, knowing that my vote would really count and not be discarded because I missed the 'voting window' with a couple of minutes. And, as KaVir pointed out, not even the most dedicated players would get up in the middle of the night just to vote.

So I am asking again, (and note that I am asking Synozeer, not the_logos, since as far as I know, Synozeer is still running this site). These are questions that I believe are important to most mudowners listed on this site. Not all of them may care about the ranking list, but the ones that do would most likely appreciate a response:

1. How does the current system work?

1A. Is it 'once per 12 hours exactly', (meaning that the voting window moves forward with each click of the button)?
1B. Or is it 'once per approximately 12 hours period', (meaning that there is about 30 minutes extra frame in each direction)?

2. What happens if you miss the frame, or even click the vote button twice by mistake?

2A. Does the 'extra' vote just get discarded
2B. Do all votes from the same ip get discarded?
2C. Does the 'extra' vote start a new 12 hours period, or is the time still counted from the last 'valid' vote?

3. If the answer to the first question is 1A, could the time frame please get changed to 11 hours instead of 12, since that would make voting easier for all of us?
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Nov. 08 2006,5:09)
I suspect he means that if the vote only has to be done roughly every 12 hours, then the player need only remember "It's 6 O'Clock - time to vote" (or whatever time they choose to vote each day), rather than always having to vote a little later than the previous day (and thus needing a reminder to avoid wasting a vote by voting a little too early).

The every-13-hours thing also means that the voting window will slowly move around the clock. I doubt any but the most hardcore of players would get out of bed in the middle of the night just to vote.
I can't say I care much either as this kind of change is going to make little to no difference in the rankings, but just as few players are going to get out of bed in the middle of night to vote, few players are going to be awake in the middle of the night to receive the reminder to vote.

--matt
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 09 2006,5:41)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Nov. 08 2006,5:09)
I suspect he means that if the vote only has to be done roughly every 12 hours, then the player need only remember "It's 6 O'Clock - time to vote" (or whatever time they choose to vote each day), rather than always having to vote a little later than the previous day (and thus needing a reminder to avoid wasting a vote by voting a little too early).

The every-13-hours thing also means that the voting window will slowly move around the clock.  I doubt any but the most hardcore of players would get out of bed in the middle of the night just to vote.
I can't say I care much either as this kind of change is going to make little to no difference in the rankings, but just as few players are going to get out of bed in the middle of night to vote, few players are going to be awake in the middle of the night to receive the reminder to vote.
If you make the assumpion that most players sleep less than 12 hours per day, then they only need to be by their computer once in the morning and once (12 hours later) in the evening.

For example, if I were to bother voting for my mud, I might set my reminder for 8am (when I get up in the morning) and 8pm (when I get home from work). Or perhaps I'd pick 12pm (my lunchbreak at work) at 12am (I'm always still up at midnight).
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 09 2006,10:41)
as this kind of change is going to make little to no difference in the rankings
Maybe not for the Top 10 ...

However, if in the current system voting twice within the allowed timeframe causes the system to discard all votes from your IP, or more likely, doesn't count the current vote AND resets your timer - how is that fair to people/players/admin who do not use scripts to assist them with time keeping.

I know personally when I vote - all I think about is "hay look, it's 4 o'clock. I think it's been about 12 hours since I last voted, I should vote again." But what if I am off even by a few minutes. Should I (and the MUDs I vote for) be penalized for my human inability to keep exact time?

Incidentily, I agree with Emil that if the current system sticks to a rigid 12 hour counter, changing to a more forgiving 11-11.5 hour counter would drastically change the listings. At least for the lower listed games.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:02 PM   #12
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Lanthum wrote:
<i>
I know personally when I vote - all I think about is "hay look, it's 4 o'clock. I think it's been about 12 hours since I last voted, I should vote again." But what if I am off even by a few minutes. Should I (and the MUDs I vote for) be penalized for my human inability to keep exact time?
</i>
Erm, so if it changes to 11 hours and I vote at 10 hours, 59 minutes, am I any less a victim of my human inability to keep exact time than if it changes to 12 hours and I vote at 11 hours, 59 minutes?

Anyway, I don't care which way it goes. If you're right and it does have more of an effect on the lower end, meh. The effect will be minimal given that moving up, say, 10 spots when you're #60 means so little (the difference between the amount of traffic TMS sends #60 and #50, for instance, is quite small), and the top ranked MUDs aren't likely to change.

--matt
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:58 AM   #13
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the_logos Nov. 09 2006,9,02
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anyway, I don't care which way it goes. If you're right and it does have more of an effect on the lower end, meh. The effect will be minimal given that moving up, say, 10 spots when you're #60 means so little (the difference between the amount of traffic TMS sends #60 and #50, for instance, is quite small), and the top ranked MUDs aren't likely to change.
And that is all you care about, right? Your own spot on the list? Not surprising.

I am with Emil on this.
A change to 11 hours interval would be good for the majority of the listed muds.
And note that he asked Synozeer, not you.
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 10 2006,03:02)
Erm, so if it changes to 11 hours and I vote at 10 hours, 59 minutes, am I any less a victim of my human inability to keep exact time than if it changes to 12 hours and I vote at 11 hours, 59 minutes?
If all you want to do is vote twice per day, then yes, I'd say you've got a serious time-keeping problem if you can't remember to vote at the roughly same time every day.

I don't get to work at exactly the same time every day, but the variation is usually only a matter of minutes. I'd find it much more difficult to arrive on time if every day I had to start working an hour earlier/later than the day before.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:36 AM   #15
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The reason it wouldn't work well in the current method is pretty simple math, something coders would have picked up their first day after graduating from "Hello World."

When you are given a clock timer that lets you vote every 12 hours, and requires you to vote at some point AFTER the 12th hour, your NEXT 12-hour vote will be 12+x. And the one after that will be 12x+x. The one after that will be 12xx+x.

So let's say the average person votes at 8AM before work, and again at 8PM in the evening.

The average person isn't going to always be able to vote at the exact correct split-second - have to account for internet lag, browser glitch, the boss on the phone asking you to come in early and your not being able to click that button that particular second, the need to go to the bathroom, your kid screaming in the other room, etc. etc. etc.

So we'll be really generous and say everyone is able to vote on an average of exactly one minute after that 12-hour mark. The first day that will be 81, AM and PM. The second day it'll be 82, AM and PM. At the end of 30 days, you'll miss your morning vote because you have to leave for work at 8:15; voting is one of the last things you do before leaving the computer to check your e-mail in the mornings.

Okay - so get smart and do it the first thing; let's say you get up at 5. But that won't work either because between 5 & 7:30 it's family time, supper time, homework time, mom-stressing-out-because-you-want-to-borrow-the-car-tomorrow time.

I think instead of a timer resetting each time you vote, it should remain anchored to the first time you ever voted, and let you vote once -within- a 12-hour period, rather than once -after- a 12-hour period.

So if you vote at 8 this morning, and at 9 this evening, and your voting window is between 8 and 8, you will still be able to vote tomorrow at 8 - not 9. If you vote at 7:59 in the morning, and at 81 the same morning, you will have used up last night's vote and this morning's vote, can't vote again til 8 tonight, and have FROM 8 tonight until 8 tomorrow to vote, with your default voting time being from 8-8 without change.

Personally though I think voting twice a day is silly, and even voting more than once per list reset is silly. But that's just me.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:01 AM   #16
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I've also thought of having the voting be tied to 12 hour periods, and not have the timer inbetween. But I think it would be a lot easier to just have the site define when that period is, like 12 to 12 GMT.

I don't care if someone votes at 11:55 and then at 12:05 every day.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 09 2006,9:02)
Anyway, I don't care which way it goes. If you're right and it does have more of an effect on the lower end, meh. The effect will be minimal given that moving up, say, 10 spots when you're #60 means so little (the difference between the amount of traffic TMS sends #60 and #50, for instance, is quite small), and the top ranked MUDs aren't likely to change.
It probably matters quite a bit to that MUD. Part of TMS's draw is that it is very inclusive, and collects a lot of smaller games in one place. That's part of the site's appeal, and it's very much Synozeer's business to keep large numbers of small game administrators and their players happy, while increasing the value of the site as a resource. What you call "the lower end" cumulatively boosts his traffic quite a bit (and brings new people into the broader community), and that traffic is why people bother to buy ads.

We don't run a script or any kind of in-game reminder (we're not in the business of nagware), but the added convenience of being able to vote at reglar intervals would seem to be useful for everyone.
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Nov. 10 2006,11:14)
That's part of the site's appeal, and it's very much Synozeer's business to keep large numbers of small game administrators and their players happy, while increasing the value of the site as a resource. What you call "the lower end" cumulatively boosts his traffic quite a bit (and brings new people into the broader community), and that traffic is why people bother to buy ads.

We don't run a script or any kind of in-game reminder (we're not in the business of nagware), but the added convenience of being able to vote at reglar intervals would seem to be useful for everyone.
Valg wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It probably matters quite a bit to that MUD.
Why, exactly? Currently (and I realize we're only about 1/4 of the way into the current voting cycle), places 60-40 look like this in terms of the 'out' votes, starting at place #60 and ending at place #40:
6
3
6
6
6
7
4
21
12
5
9
3
6
8
3
10
7
4
8
8

Wow, what a massive difference! Heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
What you call "the lower end" cumulatively boosts his traffic quite a bit (and brings new people into the broader community), and that traffic is why people bother to buy ads.
Really? Odd. Each of the two biggest MUDs currently have brought more traffic here this cycle (each one, not combined) than ALL of the MUDs ranked 40-100, combined. The top 20 MUDs combined have brought in, this cycle so far, over seven times as much traffic as 40-100 have.

So tell me again how the MUDs ranked mid-to-low bring all this traffic here? I'm sure you have some numbers to back up your assertion, right?

Incidentally, I buy more ads here than anyone else, I think (minimally am one of the top 2 advertisers). I know what motivates me to buy ads, and it's not the low ranked MUDs, which contribute very little overall to the site's value to me as an advertiser.

(And before anyone gets all huffy, that's not saying those MUDs don't have value. MUDs that send little traffic here just don't have much value to an advertiser here.)

--matt
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Zhiroc @ Nov. 10 2006,10:01)
I've also thought of having the voting be tied to 12 hour periods, and not have the timer inbetween. But I think it would be a lot easier to just have the site define when that period is, like 12 to 12 GMT.

I don't care if someone votes at 11:55 and then at 125 every day.
Now that there is a downright good suggestion.

--matt
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 10 2006,8:34)
Really? Odd. Each of the two biggest MUDs currently have brought more traffic here this cycle (each one, not combined) than ALL of the MUDs ranked 40-100, combined.
Which makes Anitra's original question all the more interesting:

"So how does this vote system work anyhow?
If I happen to vote one hour, or one minute, short, does that erase all my votes for 'cheating' or just that one?
And does it reset the counter, so that I now have to wait another twelve hours before I can vote again, or does it count from the last accepted vote?
It would be nice to know, and it is a bit hard to tell, since you don't get any message about whether your vote got accepted or rejected.
"

It'd be interesting to see how many votes were cancelled or ignored because the voter didn't wait long enough.
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