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Old 08-21-2012, 01:34 AM   #1
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Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Whenever I talk about our games to people - especially non-gamers - they are shocked to learn that Threshold RPG is 50% women gamers. They seem to assume it would be more like WoW's estimated female population of about 16%. Our newest game, Coin 'n Carry has over 75% women gamers.

When I talk to other game developers, they often ask what the secret is. Making games that appeal to women has always been a high priority for a variety of reasons, but the secret "how to" is much trickier.

I thought an interesting discussion related to this topic would be:

1) What do you think makes a game attractive to women gamers?

2) What are some of the benefits of having an above average percentage of female gamers?

3) Should we really care about this?



I was thinking about these questions lately and decided to go right to the source and ask our female players directly what makes them play Threshold. I will share a few snippets that can perhaps be utilized when making a game more "female friendly":
  • "I played in a MUD before I played in Threshold (I won't name which one) and kept running into a lot of harassment from the male players so when it got too be too much I started searching for another game. I found Threshold on TopMuds and started up a character with a friend of mine and have been totally hooked ever since. I found the game environment felt a lot safer than the other game I played, especially with all the rules of harassment in place and having an admin that actually does something about it"

  • "I love that Threshold allows for so much customization. I totally customize all of my characters before I even roll them into the game."

  • "Maintaining a safe, comfortable environment for a woman to play in is one of Threshold's greatest perks and should never be overlooked."

  • "The roleplay. Most MUDs/MUSHs are hack n' slash. Sometimes they have a wonderful combat system, but without roleplay they're boring. MUDs with "RP Suggested" or "RP Rewarded" are lame. I also find games with pure RP get tedious after a while. Threshold is a nice mix. What I love is that you can choose to either be more RP focused or more combat focused, depending on your mood and/or the type of character you wish to play. "

  • "What keeps me playing are the updates and the ever-changing world."

  • "The rules, especially help harassment, made me feel that Threshold was a safe environment."

  • "There is plenty to do in Threshold, whether you want to go out and borg or roleplay the day away. I also think the variety the game brings is fun. The world is ever changing, the gods disappear and come back, new guilds are created. It makes it fun. I have played other MMO's but I always return to Threshold."

  • "I loved that there was enforced roleplay in Thresh and that you never broke out of character, except on certain channels. I hated how some games you would be roleplaying one second and the next minute they would be talking about their car, the new movie out, etc. I also liked that there was a wonderful level of creativity."

  • "The roleplay keeeps me coming back for more, plain and simple."

  • "This game in particular appeals to me because it is RP enforced, and thus the character personalities are more realistic and the experience more immersive."

  • "The simple reality is that there isn't a game anywhere with long-term, invested roleplaying like this... When I am playing, the ability to wholly immerse myself in a character of my chosing and live in that character is a gift."

  • "I sometimes just wander around and read descriptions, look at people I meet and am amazed by the variety and depth of it all. I think the imagination part is really important for the female population."

  • "I looooove religion in Thresh. That always has me coming back for more. The admin-run plots always keep me interested, and it's so nice that even without admin support there can be amazing RP plots. The community is also great."

  • "I love that I get to create my character from start to finish. She is entirely a product of my own imagination. She's alive in Threshold with consequences to realistic situations. I love it! I have the same feeling when I read books, I get lost in it and don't want to leave. The community is absolutely wonderful. The strict rules on harrasment, coupled with the age restriction, makes for a safe and comfortable environment."


If I was summarizing and generalizing, I guess I'd point to:

  • Feeling safe from harassment.

  • Roleplay.

  • Customization and creativity.


I could easily throw "variety" in there as well, but I think that one is so general that it would apply almost certainly and equally to male players as well.

Take that feedback for what it is worth. Obviously it is biased since the sample group is women who already like Threshold and thus like the type of game it is.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear some opinions on the 3 questions at the top and whether the answers I got are of any use to anyone.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:20 AM   #2
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Not being a woman, I can't say I've ever been or felt harassed online. I often play female characters on muds (I'm not weird or anything. I'm perfectly well adjusted and not out to deceive anybody into kinky cross-gendered cybersex. I'd just say that about half my character concepts and personalities really fit a woman better than a man.) What I have noticed over the years is that female characters do get more attention as a whole. When I'm playing a female character, people help me more readily, respond to my conversations and roleplaying more often, give me stuff, and give me a lot more leeway when I say or do something confrontational in a roleplay scene. I've done things with female characters that would get male characters ostracized and thoroughly pkilled, and gotten complements from the people I'm offending. I don't really do relationship or sexual rp (with either sex of character) or give out my ooc means of contact, so there's not really an opportunity to harass me. Honestly, if you play safe and have a thick skin, it's hard to get that badly "harassed" over the internet. If a male character hits on my female character, I can react accordingly. It's roleplay, after all. If a male player asks me for my ooc contact information and tells me he wants a real life relationship, I can just ignore the guy, report him to the mud owner if he really gets unruly or sick, or tell him that I'm really male, 57 years old, 385 pounds, HIV positive and terminal, very very gay, and am currently enjoying the last few years of my life by conning young men from muds into cybersex, but I think he's too ugly so I'm just telling him the truth.

I've tried to get my wife into various games over the years, as well as various other people, woman and man alike. I think roleplaying is more of an inborn predisposition. You're either an rp geek or you're not. If you're not, you'll think roleplaying is weird and geeky and that the people who do it are strange. Being male or female doesn't affect this. Women who happen to also be rp geeks are definitely more attracted to good rp muds versus straight-up gamer muds, the same way women are more prone to having Facebook conversations through picture captions. The social aspects of the internet appeal more strongly to the more social gender.

One thing the OP's really on to is the customization. The big thing my wife really does like, about every game she's tried, is the customization. She'll spend hours playing some basketball or snowboarding game on our Playstation that I mastered 3 years ago, or mess around playing the Sims, and what she really wastes a lot of time on is her character's appearence. She'll ask my opinion what style of facial hair to give her basket ball character and what jersey looks best. I just dress my hot snowboarding chick in something casual and cool looking and kick ass, but she'll waffle between a few outfits. I can't see most women who aren't already rp geeks getting into the writing aspect of mud customization. Picking out some visual features of a character's appearence in a graphical game is easy and rewarding. Writing a five-sentence physical description, and finding the right adjectives for your custom-designed clothes for a text-based game, is more like homework. Unless you're already an rp geek.
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:56 PM   #3
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

As a woman mud player and RPer -- I would concur with most of what Threshold SnowTroll wrote.
I'd say generally as a gender, we're much more social in our game play and will look for environments where we feel safe and can express ourselves. I'd say this is a nice sum up and a good portion of why I stick around Genesis.

*Feeling safe from harassment
*Roleplay
*Customization and creativity

But I'd also add a few more -

Despite the fact that I know a lot of the female characters are being played by males -- there are quite a few female players about. Its nice knowing I have that comraderie of playing with more than a bunch of guys. No offense to you guys .. some of my greatest friends are guys. But there is a special bond girls have with each other. This one is tough to build unless you already have some type of female base since its that "chicken or egg" type thing on which comes first.

Genesis historically having wizards or guild leaders shows that the game values the contributions of both genders not just as players but in building the game as well. Plus, lets face it .. men and women are different.. and so they end up coding, creating and contributing in different ways. Its nice to be valued in your environment.


*Female friendships
*Female leadership
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:43 PM   #4
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

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Originally Posted by Kitriana View Post
But there is a special bond girls have with each other.
Definitely. I remember this group of female players who created a group called the "Wild Women" and they even designed a logo and everything (WW in a circlet of vines). They would make protest signs and carry them around town to raise awareness about all sorts of issues.

They were all great roleplayers and eventually became pretty influential in the game society. They were almost like a woman only Illuminati.


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having (female) wizards or guild leaders shows that the game values the contributions of both genders not just as players but in building the game as well. Plus, lets face it .. men and women are different.. and so they end up coding, creating and contributing in different ways. Its nice to be valued in your environment.
I put (female) in parenthesis there as I assume you meant to write it there. Correct me if I am wrong.

I definitely agree that having women on staff is huge. Frogdice is 50% female owned and our staff is approximately 50% female. I definitely think that makes a big difference.

I'm not saying it makes all the difference though. After all, Threshold was made by one guy and it managed to attract a lot of female players. But I think in the long run, having women on staff is a really important step towards making games that appeal to women.

I definitely think that is why Coin 'n Carry has been so massively embraced by women (75% of its players).

This is also why whenever I speak at a gaming or business conference I talk about how important it is to get talented and qualified women in positions of design and management in the gaming industry. Right now it is mostly HR or all the way up at the CEO position for PR purposes (e.g. 38 Studios CEO). The industry needs to attract more women to serve in all the various positions and roles so their contributions can be distributed through all layers of game development.

Its all part of my dream of video games completely dominating movies and television as the primary source of popular, culture defining entertainment.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:18 PM   #5
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Yes -- I did mean female wizards and players -- thanks for pointing out it needed clarification
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:02 PM   #6
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

After subjecting myself to a MMORG forum -- I want to add another one.

If the males playing the game can only discuss juvenile drivel and and references to the latest female's boobs they just eyed out their window or that belong to their dorm advisor -- I'm going to walk away from the situation because I find that kind of behavior to be demeaning. So I'd say not just an enforced harassment policy -- but a culture of acceptance and respect in the game is necessary.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:22 AM   #7
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

It is very sad that because we are playing, supposedly anonymously, across the internet, there are men who think female players are "fair game" (no pun intended). Of course this doesn't just stop at MUDs etc., this happens in any social media.

I rarely go in chatrooms now, but when I did, I wouldn't always reveal my gender (I'm male, by the way), and it was interesting the number of men who would persistently ask the question, often following up that they'd be my friend if I was female. If I did reveal my gender, after a period of time, then it was amazing just how many males would instantly stop talking with me. What was even more interesting female participants of the chatroom rarely ever asked whether I was male or female - they were there for a chat.

I have to disagree with Snowtroll a little because he states that it's hard to get that badly harassed over the internet, but then gives a list of the actions he takes when that happens. On occasion when I have played in any computer games as a female character, I've often been asked if I wanted to see "pictures" or ask if I have any of myself, and so on.

I think that games developers can try and keep things as "in the open" as possible - ensuring that there isn't a way for someone to send a private message to another in the game world, for example, without the recipient first agreeing to it. I think there would be a lot less harassment if messages had to be posted for all to see.

And of course there has to be an effective administration or Mod team that will deal with complaints very quickly.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:45 PM   #8
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Kitriana. I'm going to comment on some of what you say because I agree and disagree with parts of it. Let me preface this by saying that over 50% of the players at NWA are female. Last estimate was around 55% to 60% (this does not include genderbenders, I'm talking about players, not characters).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitriana View Post
I'd say generally as a gender, we're much more social in our game play and will look for environments where we feel safe and can express ourselves.
Yes I would agree partially with this, though I have known many male characters to be very social and in fact even more dramatic than female.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitriana View Post
*Feeling safe from harassment
*Roleplay
*Customization and creativity
Feeling safe from harrassment is found in any game that has rules against this and age rules. NWA has both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitriana View Post
Genesis historically having wizards or guild leaders shows that the game values the contributions of both genders not just as players but in building the game as well. Plus, lets face it .. men and women are different.. and so they end up coding, creating and contributing in different ways. Its nice to be valued in your environment.
Agreed. 70% of the administration and staff on NWA is female and add a good diversity to management. 50% of the leaders are also female, but this fluctuates because we like a game that leadership changes regularly giving all players an opportunity to lead.[/quote]

There was another post about MMORPG Forums. You are talking about children from 13 (some 9) to 18 on those forums and the games. Hence the reason for poor roleplay, harrassment, and idiocy on games like WoW. And the reason for popularity of games like NWA where you must be 18 and you must roleplay. Tends to weed out the immaturity.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:24 PM   #9
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

1) What do you think makes a game attractive to women gamers?

Having played two muds and one moo before playing the one I play now, number one thing would have to be safety. I tend to stick with smaller muds, because my problem with big muds was that when I tried to complain about harrassment nothing would happen. And I mean like ooc stalking/ic stalking sort of thing. Then I found in smaller muds, especially the one I was playing for ten years, wanted to please all parties involved so I found them compromising with the male characters so that they would stay.

Second is casual. Don't get me wrong, I love hack and slash, played that way since I was thirteen and now I am twenty four. But I find with muds that promote levels and remorts and grinding, you lose a lot of the casualness of creating a story of your own. But I also found that games that are strictly rp, no mobs or weapons or the like, you lose the casualness of just wanting to bash something over the head because you are frustrated that day. Some days I want to think and some days I do not want to think, so a casual do whatever suits you game appeals to me as a girl.

Third is content, I am a girl that reads a lot. I enjoy immersing myself in a world and visualing every aspect of it. Which is why I find it unusual that more girls do not play muds, but like I stated before girls will not play your game if they feel like creepy men will be following them around and you will do nothing to protect them. But, back to content, you do not need to write "girly" rooms to make it attractive to us, as I have seen some places do. You just need to put some effort into what you write besides there is a tree, a rock, and the sky in this room.

Fourth but not really least is maturity. Probably why I play an 18+ game right now, because I got tired of the talk that became apparent in teenage boys. Now, even adult men and women are that way, but it is not as apparent. I really enjoy the game I play now has rules for respect, harrassment, not blurring lines between ooc and ic. Things that should be necessary for human beings. If you play a game just to make others miserable, because you are miserable or you have low self esteem... Means you should probably be seeking therapy.



Overview of the type of game I enjoy, short version for those that do not like to read: safe, casual, immersing, and mature.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:25 AM   #10
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

I agree that stalking a player of a character is obviously wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. I'd have no reservations about banning anyone who did this from the game I am developing, however a male character stalking a female character, IC, I feel is a completely different matter. If a MUD is adult-rated, such roleplay can be expected to occur at times. I certainly wouldn't punish any player for the roleplay of their character, as long as it is consistent with the setting of the game. However, violent or sexual roleplay must be faded to black if it makes someone in that scene uncomfortable. That does not mean such a scene wouldn't have taken place, it will just be assumed instead of actually being roleplayed, and I feel that is enough to ensure women are not made uncomfortable in roleplay, while at the same time keeping things in line with the adult theme that they would have been aware of prior to playing.

As for content and immersing yourself in the story as opposed to hack and slash, I only play RPI MUD's and my MUD is roleplay-enforced. I think the interest in that sort of MUD is fairly mixed, with males and females making up roughly equal numbers of players in my experience. So I don't think females wanting that kind of roleplay is neccesarily anything distinct from what male players want.

I agree with a clear seperation between IC and OOC, and I wouldn't allow sexism on out of character channels. I would class this as harrassment, or something that would create a hostile environment for players, although I can't say I've ever really experienced this on RPI's.

Something I am particularly interested in, is female perception of medieval style prejudice against women, if it is part of a game's setting. I am aware that this would probably be undesirable for a female player wanting to play a female character. For this reason, not restricting female characters to certain roles, is, I think essential. Sure, there may be some prevalent opinions in game about what roles females should take, but that doesn't mean that a female character can't decide to go against the grain, and that is something I would like to encourage, as that would promote roleplay in the form of female activism. I guess what I'm saying is, even in a typically medieval setting, as a staff member, you should be flexible about these kind of things. The characters played by people can be the unusual. Who wants to play ordinary? After all, they would only represent a small number of the overall population of a settlement.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:35 PM   #11
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

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Something I am particularly interested in, is female perception of medieval style prejudice against women, if it is part of a game's setting. I am aware that this would probably be undesirable for a female player wanting to play a female character. For this reason, not restricting female characters to certain roles, is, I think essential. Sure, there may be some prevalent opinions in game about what roles females should take, but that doesn't mean that a female character can't decide to go against the grain, and that is something I would like to encourage, as that would promote roleplay in the form of female activism. I guess what I'm saying is, even in a typically medieval setting, as a staff member, you should be flexible about these kind of things. The characters played by people can be the unusual. Who wants to play ordinary? After all, they would only represent a small number of the overall population of a settlement.
I'm actually a little sick of playing "harsh" "medieval" styled games, where 99% of the people I run across are supposed to be timid peasants, and 99.99% of the women I run across are supposed to be second class citizens, at least according to all the game lore I read on some mud's webpage, but the actual playing experience turns out to be the complete opposite. It rubs me wrong when every woman I meet is strong, resoulte, unafraid, powerful, willful, and an all around ass kicker, and two thirds of the positions of power in a supposedly stereotypical middle ages world are filled by powerful, strong-willed women playing the exceptions, who pretty much rule the in game world.

The harassment thing cuts both ways. A mud needs to be completely intolerant of out of character harassment between players, but definitely shouldn't be comprimising the integrity of the in character world or bending over backward to be super tolerant.

Hypothetical: What do you do if a "harassed" player complains the following to a mud administrator? "Male Player X has been giving me a hard time in character, saying all kinds of sexist things about women and treating me badly and making me feel really insecure. I know this game's set in strict medieval times where women are second class citizens and treated like property, but I just get this really bad vibe from him, like he really enjoys being an ass in character. And he does it all the time, whenever we're both on. I tried talking to him ooc about this, and he told me to keep everything in character and that it was just roleplay, but I know that's bull! He's just using roleplaying to harass me! You need to ban him!"
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:22 PM   #12
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Masochist jokes aside--who would actually expect others to choose to spend their recreation time being immersed in virtual mistreatment for the sake of historical accuracy?

This brings to mind a Star Trek DS9 episode. In it, Captain Sisko, who is black, is reluctant to participate in a virtual simulation of "Vic's", a 1960s Las Vegas casino. Sisko's near-Utopian futuristic society has no racism, nor does this simulation, but he is keenly aware of the history of racism. He discusses this with another black character:

Sisko: "We cannot ignore the truth about the past."

Kassidy: "Going to Vic's won't make us forget who we are or where we came from. It reminds us that we are no longer bound by any limitations. Except the ones we impose on ourselves."
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:35 PM   #13
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

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Masochist jokes aside--who would actually expect others to choose to spend their recreation time being immersed in virtual mistreatment for the sake of historical accuracy?
Opinions differ on this one. On one hand, for many (most?) players, a mud is only fun if they can accomplish whatever they want to put their effort toward doing, which means that a game world is only "fun" if it's fairly egalitarian, where any race and gender can get anywhere with enough time and effort, and where nobody's going to give you a hard time for trying. On the other hand, for others, a mud is only fun if the game world is extremely different from the real world, and one way many muds accomplish this is by having a world not polluted by modern ideals of racial and gender equality, where some characters are just hated and have a harder time because of the type of character they are. In some roleplay-focused muds, it's not about getting anywhere or accomplishing anything with your character. You're just part of a shared story and are supposed to fill the role you're filling as well as you can, even if that means playing a character that doesn't win, accomplish anything, or get anywhere.

I question why a guy in the sci-fi future, hundreds of years from now, living on a space station, who's never experienced racism, and whose great great grandparents never experienced racism, would still be sore about racism in the 1960s.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:21 AM   #14
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Re: Why Do So Many Women Play Threshold RPG?

Quote:
I'm actually a little sick of playing "harsh" "medieval" styled games, where 99% of the people I run across are supposed to be timid peasants, and 99.99% of the women I run across are supposed to be second class citizens, at least according to all the game lore I read on some mud's webpage, but the actual playing experience turns out to be the complete opposite. It rubs me wrong when every woman I meet is strong, resoulte, unafraid, powerful, willful, and an all around ass kicker, and two thirds of the positions of power in a supposedly stereotypical middle ages world are filled by powerful, strong-willed women playing the exceptions, who pretty much rule the in game world. - Snowtroll
Well, if the setting is that women are treated a certain way, I would expect the players to bear that in mind. So, I would expect obstacles for women wanting to reach such positions of power, if they are not typicallly roles that are easy for women to achieve. I guess all I was saying is that the staff should not prevent any kind of female activism from developing if the characters decide that is what they want to roleplay. Additionally, if male characters decided to oppress women, and tried to prevent such activism, then that's down to them, and I would not interfere. The game can start off with a specific setting, but the players have to be able to affect things as the game progresses, and if that means women become more (or even less) respected as equal citizens, then I think that should be down to the players and their roleplay.

At the beginning of a game, every game already needs to have a setting that is dictated by the staff. If the game starts with them saying women are oppressed, then women should roleplay being oppressed and not take roles typically taken by men. I would expect them to roleplay earning such roles, if they wanted to, until opinion is swayed enough in game that new female characters can apply for such roles in character creation.

As for your hypothetical situation, I would laugh. No, not really. I think if the player has read the setting helpfiles, and knows that this kind of roleplay is likely in the game, then she has no grounds to complain.

Last edited by Orion : 10-11-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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