Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > Mud Development and Administration > MUD Administration
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-10-2005, 02:47 AM   #1
thehulk
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
thehulk is on a distinguished road
Can anybody tell me if mud adminstrators know if you are multiplaying or not? Is there a way for them to check all ISP addressess for people on-line? Are there other ways that they check for multiplaying?
thehulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2005, 04:08 AM   #2
prof1515
Senior Member
 
prof1515's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 791
prof1515 will become famous soon enoughprof1515 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to prof1515 Send a message via Yahoo to prof1515
Yes, yes and yes. There are plenty of ways, including those you mentioned to detect multi-playing. Sure, they might not notice, but it's entirely within their ability to detect it if they want. So, if it's against a MUD's policy, don't do it. You're a guest on any MUD unless you directly own it. As a guest, you should behave like one and be respectful of the rules set down by those who own/run the game. Doing something they've asked you not to is not only rude, but deserving of an ass-kicking off of the said MUD.

Take care,

Jason
prof1515 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2005, 06:17 AM   #3
Hajamin
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lusternia
Posts: 35
Hajamin is on a distinguished road
It is amazingly easy to catch multiplayers, even without checking IP's. Always entertaining to hear the excuses when they get caught though.
Hajamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2005, 07:48 AM   #4
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Mud adminstrators cannot know for sure if you are multiplaying or not, but they can tell if you're connecting from the same IP address as other players. Some will act on that alone, blissfully ignorant of the fact that they're banning people for connecting from the same university or public library. Others will investigate further by monitoring your activities, trying to see if the suspect characters appear to be acting independantly or not.

A player who really wishes to multiplay will do so from multiple IP addresses, so this sort of heavy-handed "enforcement" does little to discourage the real problem. It might catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players. Getting banned isn't the most fun way to discover that someone else at your university plays the same mud as you...
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2005, 08:39 AM   #5
Fishy
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 42
Fishy is on a distinguished road
Instead of debating multiplaying...
Players: Choose a mud where multiplaying does not help you.
Coders: Make it so that multiplaying doesn't really help... unless you plan to allow multiplaying.

On a side note: some players love to script (I did once aswell, although I got permission for my little bot). So while it might not sound like much fun for the average player but maybe there is some interest in making a game where not only is scripting allowed, but necessary to survive (or winning a fight at any rate). However I can see a problem with the learning curve for something like that, maybe if you began with some pre-written in-game scripts?
Fishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2005, 09:05 AM   #6
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Fishy @ Dec. 10 2005,14:39)
Instead of debating multiplaying...
Players: Choose a mud where multiplaying does not help you.
Coders: Make it so that multiplaying doesn't really help...
Easier said than done. The only type of mud I can think of where multiplaying wouldn't help would be some sort of highlander-style pure PK mud, with no character advancement, and where combat could only ever be one-on-one.

You can make it so that multiplaying is less viable, but unless the mud is highly specialised it's always going to provide an advantage.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2005, 10:49 AM   #7
Alexander Tau
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 101
Alexander Tau is on a distinguished road
If a game is essentially a competition, then people with multiple characters can have a significant advantage. For games that are really about the Role Playing, and Grand Storylines, the advantage is very little.

I have always allowed people to play more than one character if they ask for permission first. When people choose to violate this rule it is only a matter of time before they get caught. As GameMasters we watch everything, and all it takes is one little slip for the truth to become known.

And I just have to say that site banning someone, without checking on the rest of your playerbase, is just sad.


Fishy,

About scripts, and other tech tools...

I have always thought that a Player has the right to 'play' anyway they want unless they (1) Somehow are ruining the fun for others or (2) Violate one of the few Game Laws. I personally am tired of things you have to do many, many, many times and do not put them in my games anyway.

I see the computer interface as a poor substitute for you really 'being there' in the Mud. The controls, even with a powerhouse Terminal like Zmud, are fairly weak and clunky. So anything you might do to make the game more fun for you, is probably ok.


A.T
(-)
Alexander Tau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2005, 04:31 PM   #8
Richter
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Name: Marc
Location: Washington, USA
Home MUD: Lusternia
Posts: 17
Richter is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Richter
I've found that anything you do in a MUD, there's usually a way to tell. If you've told someone something about so-and-so's grandmother a month and two days ago, they'll find it.

And when I was a newbie to MUDding, and multiplayed before I read the helpfiles on Aetolia, I got caught and had it explained. There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you...
Richter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2005, 06:01 PM   #9
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Richter @ Dec. 24 2005,22:31)
There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you...
No, there is not. Mud admin can guess, they can logs things and try to work it out, but multiplaying is not something that can be proven. As I said before mud admin can catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2005, 07:00 PM   #10
Chayesh
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Chayesh is on a distinguished road
That's not entirely correct. While it is true that most codebases only show connections from the same IP (which is not always a multi) we do have ways of "testing" to see if it is truly two people who share a gateway or one person running two characters.

And as already stated, it's pretty easy to tell.
Chayesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2005, 08:41 PM   #11
Alexander Tau
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 101
Alexander Tau is on a distinguished road
Guess? Are the realms of RP and not RP so different? When I have suspected people of illegal multiplay in the past I have always found it reasonably easy to be sure before I took any actions.

My favorite technique, set a watchdog that scans everything they say/tell/chat/emote. Have it look for just a couple of short phrases and spit those out to a log. 'I'm' 'It's' and the name of the original, legal, character.

Sooner or later they all tell somebody, and this gets the vast majority of them when they do.

There are other steps besides a site ban of course, deletion of all characters is pretty painful.


A.T
(-)
Alexander Tau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2005, 11:15 AM   #12
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Alexander Tau @ Dec. 25 2005,02:41)
Sooner or later they all tell somebody, and this gets the vast majority of them when they do.
Once again, as I said, you can catch out the clueless and the careless. But you won't catch a careful multiplayer, and you're only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2005, 12:17 PM   #13
Alexander Tau
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 101
Alexander Tau is on a distinguished road
I agree with you if we are talking about a H&S game where you can play and not have to interact much. Which as far as I know are the kinds of game you favor.

But in an RP enviroment things are different. It is a rare person who can get away from it for long if you have an active Staff who pays attention. It takes people skills, along with tech support of course, but few people can keep it up for that long.

All it takes is the wrong phrase, or even just how they structure their sentances to figure it out. When people are surprised, or challenged, they tend to revert back to their normal behavior.

Now multiplay has never been a big problem on my games because I have always allowed it with permission. Most people would rather ask than risk loseing their Characters. But there are always a few who wish to flout the Rules.

I remember catching one because in a moment of stress he let go with an particular exclaimation that I knew was a favorite of another character. This got me looking, and in a short time the pattern of logons/logoffs between the two characters cinched the deal. I put a full log on both characters and the proof was not long in comming.

Now I also grant that most do not have my knowledge of people (I have been a counselor for years) and that would make the job a whole lot tougher.

So perhaps in your experience you have run across a lot of people who are very skilled in deception and have managed to get away with it for a long time. My experience is different.



A.T
(-)
Alexander Tau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2005, 01:23 PM   #14
the_logos
Moderator
 
the_logos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,301
the_logos will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Alexander Tau @ Dec. 30 2005,12:17)
But in an RP enviroment things are different. It is a rare person who can get away from it for long if you have an active Staff who pays attention. It takes people skills, along with tech support of course, but few people can keep it up for that long.

So perhaps in your experience you have run across a lot of people who are very skilled in deception and have managed to get away with it for a long time. My experience is different.
Given that the only ones you know about are the ones you catch, you have no way of actually judging how effective you've been at catching multplayers. Is it possible to catch many of them? Sure. Is it possible to know what percentage of them you've caught? No.

--matt
the_logos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2005, 06:44 PM   #15
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,241
Threshold will become famous soon enough
A few thoughts on multiplaying:

1) I generally prefer allowing it, but only with permission so at least you know who is who and can help protect against abuses. Of course, even with this allowance, some people will choose to multiplay without getting permission. That is where the remaining thoughts come into play.

2) It is always easy to catch the stupid and the careless. They are almost not even discussing. On a game where multiplaying is allowed with permission, a huge percentage of those who choose to multiplay WITHOUT permission fall into the stupid and careless category. There is a good correlation between people who break game rules and people who are stupid. The intelligent gamer who also likes to break the rules is far less common that your general numbskull wanker who breaks rules because he or she is too stupid to understand that rules generally make for a better game.

3) Of the remaining types of "illegal" multiplayers, it is indeed hard to catch them... in the short run. But in the long run, it is once again EASY to catch them. Why? Because everyone makes mistakes, and eventually they will say the wrong thing to the wrong person, or do the wrong thing, or trip a log of some sort, etc.

4) There is a certain elegant beauty to the fact that getting away with multiplaying is easy in the short run, and hard in the long run. The longer the cheater plays his/her characters, the more he has to lose. So when the person DOES eventually get caught, they have much more to lose in terms of characters, time investment, etc.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2005, 11:38 AM   #16
xotl
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 26
xotl is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 24 2005,18:01)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Richter @ Dec. 24 2005,22:31)
There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you...
No, there is not.  Mud admin can guess, they can logs things and try to work it out, but multiplaying is not something that can be proven.  As I said before mud admin can catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players.
If I suspect someone's multiplaying, I sometimes give them a phone call when both accounts are logged on and talk to both of them. Helps to have a free long distance package.

It's actually quite a fun thing to do if you like people, neat to hear their voice, and they hear that you're a human being too and not some sophisticated AI program they are out to find loopholes in.

It's worked so far, but the active playerbase at Accursed Lands is about 50 a day, 100 a week right now. We're going through a dev cycle.

You could also fly out and knock on their door.
xotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2006, 07:17 PM   #17
Thore
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1
Thore is on a distinguished road
I used to play on a LAN with a friend and was once asked about multiplaying (which is illegal on the mud). We were given a simple test of saying the alphabet at the same time. I know it wouldn't be _that_ hard to fake it as a single player, but if you're not prepared I think it's an effective way to catch people.

I've only really played one mud but I don't see why multiplaying would ever be allowed. Don't most muds contain different races 'n such? Wouldn't it be detrimental to allow players to be logged onto a character of each race? Or even two of the same race... warring factions etc. Just doesn't make sense to me I guess. =)

The mud I play at has instated a policy of LAN registration. So if you know you're playing on the same LAN as someone you have to submit character names and to which players the belong to, this has helped a ton. And I'm sure most game adminstrators wouldn't be too hasty to ban an entire IP because they suspect one person of cheating. I assume most game owners would want to keep players and at least investigate the situation a little more.
Thore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2006, 12:25 PM   #18
Alexander Tau
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 101
Alexander Tau is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I've only really played one mud but I don't see why multiplaying would ever be allowed.
There are a wide variety of styles of Muds, many are based on competition but many are not. It really depends on how the owners of the game want to see it played.

Many games have a somewhat limited amount of content so the Staff does not want to see someone fly thorough it all too fast and then get bored and quit. Others want to see each player compete equally with everyone else and they feel that multiplay gets in the way of that.

Personally I make games so that players can come in and and much as possible play in a way that makes them happy. It is the same sort of issue with things like Bots. Many games make them illegal as well, I do not. If it makes someone happy to have some code run their character and they enjoy that, fine with me. The line for me is hit when what one player does somehow ruins the fun for others.

There is a lot of ego tied up in most games. For many people it is the only time in their life that they are totally in control of something and quite often it goes to their heads. But on the flip side there are also plenty of games run by people who want to see their players enjoy themselves and who put a lot of time and effort into making a game that is fun to play.

For me I see people with real RP skills as a rare thing, and if someone like that wants to play more than one character I am more than happy to allow them to do so.

The real problem that can happen with multiplay is when someone uses a secondary character to do things which violate the spirit of the game. As you mentioned many games have factions, Clans, or some other kind of grouping. If your main character is a member of one group and you make a second character simply to inflitrate a rival group and sabotage them it tends to cause hurt feelings.

When a player(s) get their feeling hurt in this way they have a tendency to quit playing. Because of this potential most games prohibit multiplay. So like many things in life, a few dishonest people ruin it for everyone.



A.T
(-)
Alexander Tau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 11:18 AM   #19
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Alexander Tau @ Jan. 03 2006,18:25)
It is the same sort of issue with things like Bots. Many games make them illegal as well, I do not. If it makes someone happy to have some code run their character and they enjoy that, fine with me. The line for me is hit when what one player does somehow ruins the fun for others.
If the game is competitive, then bots may well ruin the fun for other players. If botting lets people advance faster than not botting, then players basically have a choice of either falling behind, or botting as well. This then shifts the perception of the mud away from the gameplay, and towards the end result - it's no longer about enjoying and exploring the mud, instead it becomes a race to the finish line. All the content you've carefully prepared will be reduced to a series of hoops for a mindless bot to jump through.

You can try and avoid botting through code or via administrative rules, but it's not something you can just ignore unless your mud is non-competitive in nature.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 03:59 PM   #20
Kaleisha
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 18
Kaleisha is on a distinguished road
I agree with the comments about alts being hard to spot sometimes. We don't allow alts in our mud because it upsets the political balance, it also makes it far too easy for players to gain information. My view is if they wish to find out what is going on in another city in order to use the information to help strengthen their own, they ought to hire a spy, or pay off a corruptable city official in other city... not simply log in an alt and read the boards.

99.9% of alts are dead easy to spot, I can't believe how stupid some players think admin are. And the excuses they give are often an insult to the intellect. We have couples and siblings playing from the same ip they usually contact staff and let them know, and they're watched for a while to make sure they are indeed seperate identities. If someone really wannts to play an alt, and is sucessfully hiding it then they're probably not actually dong anything that can harm the general feel or direction of the world.

Some people can manage to play alts without their main char leavng hidden piles of gold for their newbie to find. Or log in their second, read their news and then announce on city with their first that Evellos is planning war with them. some can play an alt without doing the standard 'hey, it's me, can you hook me up with some uber armor and a new boat' or immediately knowing everyone in their village personally.... to be honest if there are people in our mud playing alts like this, not immediately detectable, I don't mind. As long as the roleplay and balance is not upset.

I can't speak for other mud owners, but to me the main reasoning for not allowing alts is all the cheating that can occur. And it's the cheating that brings attention to an alt. So if you really really want to play an alt in a no multiplaying game, use seperate ips, don't interact in anyway at all with your alt, no matter how tempting it might be to pass along equipment or cash or information. Try to remember which character holds what knowledge. Keep it all seperate and you'll likely never be caught
Kaleisha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Help Multiplaying Question! - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question Garud Newbie Help 5 06-02-2006 06:12 PM
That Age Old Question... NotL337 MUD Coding 18 04-07-2006 04:38 AM
MUD question Hoj Newbie Help 2 07-21-2004 12:43 PM
Question Nostrum Newbie Help 1 11-18-2002 05:35 PM
A Question weiss Tavern of the Blue Hand 2 05-27-2002 02:50 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014