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Old 02-08-2003, 09:22 PM   #1
Terloch
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Ya know, I usually could care less when something like this happens and I just let it go after contacting the admin/staff of whatever game it happened on, but this annoyed me enough to actually share my experience...

I'm the admin of Feudal Realms, have been for as long as it's been up. If there's one thing I loathe it is one of my players, regardless of who, going to another game and trash-talking it, especially on open channels.

Today a player logged in as Talgren, from a socket at ppp-68-21-131-23.dsl.euclwi.ameritech.net. Within about 10 seconds of being on Feudal Realms he felt the need to proclaim to everyone this...

Talgren gossips 'this game bites, achaea is weay better'

Needless to say, I banned the socket and denied the player. Now when this happens, I generally go to the game which the player so nicely commented on, ask to talk to an imm or admin and let them know what happened, and what the person's socket is. In 99.9% of cases they are as annoyed with the goings on as I am and they deal with the person, who is usually logged on, and sometimes even in front of me. Needless to say, they understand that this is tactless and that it is generally the poorest of mud etiquete to do so.

So I go to the Achaea page, click on the little java link and log on. I ask to speak to an immortal or staff member and explain to the person who replies, and I am given this response...

"We don't care about other games, or your problem."

Ok, what the #### is with that attitude, honestly? And no, I don't expect an admin to control what their players do, and I've heard that "Well, they are doing what they want, I can't control that.", but my god, don't have that kind of holier-than-thou **** off kind of attitude when you are presented with an issue such as this.

Tactless, pure and simple.



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Old 02-08-2003, 09:42 PM   #2
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Did you honestly expect anything different from Achaea, considering their history of advertising campaigns?
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Old 02-08-2003, 09:53 PM   #3
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Yeah, really... I mean, it's Achaea. We're not talking about thinking, feeling human beings with emotions, morals or ethics.
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Old 02-08-2003, 10:08 PM   #4
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Did I say that?
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Old 02-08-2003, 10:13 PM   #5
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Maybe you should pay them, you'd get a better response!
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Old 02-09-2003, 03:13 AM   #6
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Does Achaea still have bonuses for people who vote?

I cannot be bothered to log on to it to see.
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Old 02-09-2003, 04:15 PM   #7
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Ya know, I don't know what I honestly expected, it's the first time I logged on there (and likely the last) for anything, I guess I was at least expecting a bit of tact and not what I got...

As for bonuses, who knows...
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Old 02-09-2003, 05:05 PM   #8
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Any MUD admin who doesn't attempt to stop this sort of thing obviously has no care for the MUD'ding community in general.

A similar sort of thing kicked off on a MUD I used to play. I could name names but I wont. Somehow or another some players got hold of the code and created a new MUD, and people would log on all the time (probably still do to some extent) and spam things like "Code stealers" and "This MUD sucks". Considering the first MUD's origins, it was extremely hypocritical. Of course, most of the people doing it probably had no idea of the origins.

When my own MUD opens for public play, I will treat any occurence of my players logging on to other MUD's to advertise with extreme seriousness. There will be guidelines to make sure players know we do not want this sort of advertising done. ####, I dont even talk about my own game to a couple of friends on other MUD's we play where there are OOC channels. To do so, to me, is to show disrespect for the creator of the MUD you're currently on and is one of the worst forms of impropiety I can think of.

However, there will always be the ignorant few who believe this sort of thing is funny. All we can do as a community is try to deal with them in as mature and responsible way as possible. If these ignorant few create MUD's and have their friends going around other MUD's spamming ad's, I'm sure word will get around on places like this fast enough.
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Old 02-10-2003, 01:27 AM   #9
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Exclamation

I had a similar experince on the Mud I'm an Immortal on, (AU) Some guy comes on to our mud, and starts spewing a mod address/port on the newbie channel (we've had problems with newbies before and only allow them to use this channel for the first 3 levels). Me and the other Immortal that was on at the time, Jirah, when to said mud, and asked ot talk w.ith the implmentor, apon ariving they staff member we talked to (it may have been the imp) tried ot get us to stay on as players and basicly gave god items and advanced us to level 50. and ignored our greivence.
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:31 AM   #10
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What an awful bunch of ignorant idiots without feelings must be at that un-named mud, and their arrogant imms must be ogres who cackle with delight as they see those players using that ganked code, and don't feel a bit of remorse about it too no doubt. sorry to hear about your experiences Terloch, happens every day though. Always going to be someone out there who doesn't think before he speaks, and speaks not caring for who is listening, in every walk of life, but you'd think the implementors of such a 'prestigous' mud would know a bit better. I hope those Achaea fools get what they deserve, or at least apologise, but it probably won't happen, coz the world is like that. It sucks. There's still enough noble people in the community to make it worth being a part of though .. maybe they dont get the 300+ playerbase.. but when your free mud is down for a day or two and as soon as you finally get it back up, there's 30 people on it within twenty minutes, you know you're doing something right. Personally I ban people from my mud who advertise on others.. and I ban the guys who log in to vote.. not that desperate for those kinda players.
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:37 AM   #11
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Exclamation

I'm sure Mr. Mihaly stalks these boards in some form or another. I wonder what he has to say on the subject?

Kas.
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Old 02-10-2003, 07:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Davairus @ Feb. 10 2003,04:31)
What an awful bunch of ignorant idiots without feelings must be at that un-named mud, and their arrogant imms must be ogres who cackle with delight as they see those players using that ganked code, and don't feel a bit of remorse about it too no doubt.
In case this little statement is aimed at my post (and I'm guessing it is since I dont recall anyone else talking about "ganked" code) then perhaps I should make myself a bit clearer.

Abandoned Realms is the MUD I was playing at. Forsaken Lands is the MUD which started up based on AR's code (which since, I might add, seems to have advanced far beyond it's origins). Why did I find AR players logging onto FL and behaving as they did to be hypocritical? AR was founded by people who took their code from Carrion Fields.

Do I agree with code stealing? Of course not. I'd be mad as a bull seeing red if someone stole mine. The fact is I'd been playing AR for over a year before I found out how it started, and having never played Carrion Fields I didn't really understand that fact anyway.

Was my post directed in spite at any particular MUD? Nope. It was an example of the level of maturity some of the MUD players around have. Of course, as I said those players from AR may not have know where AR came from, in which case in their eyes no doubt they had a valid disagreement. I merely stated that *I* found it hypocritical since I DID know where AR came from.

Do you feel remorse when you see your players using code that no doubt came from CF Davairus? Of course not, you're not the one who stole it. But perhaps you should think more on the origins of your own MUD before casting dispersions on others. CF is a successful MUD. AR is a successful MUD. FL is a successful MUD. AR and FL might have had dodgy beginnings, but both have since evolved in their own right, as I've no doubt CF has done since the time AR started up.
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:15 PM   #13
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You either ignored or didn't know that Stryth and Zafrin (our most active ever coders) loathe the guy/s that copied those ideas shamelessly, and in fact denied the main offender, the other didn't do too much damage, and he went on to build lots of original stuff of his own. Those guys are seriously hardcore about doing things differently and as original as they can, maybe some of the mistakes of the past helped them decide that, or maybe everyone was considered equal for their part back then, dunno. Thats how it is now though. As the new imp there I also hate it, and I am damned if I am going to let it stay, I intend to remove as much of it as I can completely from the MUD, whether its popular or not. It disgusts me. But I'm not going to remove stock code and code thats on snippets all over the net for the sake of being different, I'm fully aware how the stock scene has developed - thats partly why AR is kinda behind these days, but it saves me some work and I'm thankful for that. Carrion Fields is an amazing MUD, they have accomplished so much, I love that place, any aspiring ROM coder/builder should look up to it. I give it a 9 out of 10. Most advanced ROM mud I ever saw. Its just different to us, everything is weaker on AR purposefully (from the races right down to equipment and tick length, the fundamentals of gameplay), and its a smaller world by design, and we handle magic a lot different. There's definitely some too-similar elements present, and you might not be surprised to learn that WE DONT LIKE THEM. Time has made those things out of place and super powerful compared to the rest of the stuff and they're going to get the chop as more time permits. I don't think its fair to me, the other implementors who have coded and poured literally years of their time into AR, to throw us in the same basket as the other MUD you mention here.

The fact is if you pulled all the AR-developed ideas out of the spinoff mud which you claim has 'advanced' far beyond it (I prefer to call it, defacing it in their own image), you'd have a lot of holes. Say goodbye to the bard and monk class without a doubt. Ta-ta vampires. Later minotaurs, sliths, werebeasts and illithids. Goodbye all those great high level areas that AR spent so much time making, starting from stock. Then there's the whole tick time, spell system and the unique way one_hit works, which I'd say was pretty important. All gone. See how we shape up vs them then. Thats before we get into the ideas that got/get ripped from the forums before they could/can get coded. So, quite a big hole I'd say. The difference in that and our dirty laundry is many folds bigger. And no, we don't ban people that accuse or ask about our history on the mud, at least not until they get vulgar. We are open to discussion, I've been over it many times with visitors who asked, and I narrate to the best of my knowledge what happened, and if they're patient I'll tell them what we've done to try to redeem for that. In fact I've even talked to CF imms and we've exchanged IP's of advertisers to ban for them in the past. So its probably not advertised well enough on AR that one of their poor original imps took a few short-cuts, but its no big deal to display it on the webpage for everyone to see. I'd even go so far as to link to CF and say if you're not going to play AR then try there next because its a #### fine mud. Maybe I will include that as a part of the new website design we've been working on, I really do not mind doing it, it would be nice to have a bio anyway, and they definitely deserve some credit for how hard they work.

Just incase I didnt emphasise this clear enough there was a BIG GROUP of imms when AR opened and one or two of them wanted to rip CF off likely because they enjoyed it so much, having left because of the things they didn't like (which didnt include getting busted for cheating on an immortal and demoted, regardless of why it is). Lots of places start like that. Thankfully they're gone, and those that are left here on AR are primarily interested in providing a unique playing experience, and shaping it towards the ideals that were set out 6 months before it opened in 1996, obviously the ones who were the most serious about doing a new mud. Feel like playing a mud like CF? Then please, go and play CF. Don't play AR. I'm the implementor of AR telling you that. Find out what AR is about before you play it, we're not so purdy as other places cause we spend more time under the hood than spraying the car, thats not likely to change anytime soon. We do add ideas from outside generally on request and if its adding something to the MUD worth doing it. Being familiar with other MUDs gives a good way for our coders to know what to -avoid- coding. Do we claim to be a custom base? No, we advertise as ROM, we're not different enough from stock to claim that. Do we claim we have lots of original areas? No, we have stock and we say so.

I see that other place advertising as the leader of pk muds on the net, and I admit that hurts, I deliberately don't complain about it much though coz that'd just hurt AR. Its definitely much different to AR now, its been tailored to the tastes of its founders, maybe your tastes fit that since you consider it advanced far beyond us I guess, go play there if you like it. AR hasn't been coded on intensively in a few years, and with the code swipes going on, the competition is just stiffer for it - but at the end of the day, we're coding again now, and it'll be the better implementation that gets the players in the long run, they had a good headstart but we're back active now, and we'll see how things look in a year.

Anyway, the areas being taken really sucks, thats what sucks the most from my point of view, you can code bash and trip two different ways but an area is an area, and 10+ original areas is a bit hard to lose. They were made for the theme of AR, and were once one of our major attractions, now they're getting beaten easily by more powerful characters a different place. By and large the two mud's imps still get along and sometimes co-operate with troubled times, there's a little discomfort but its been a while, we were friends before it happened and that stands, its not like its Bush vs Hussein or something.

This post is a rare display of openness because you attacked our muds players. The imms at AR are very honest, and our rules are explained simply and enforced strictly. Anyone who talks to them or tries to pull stuff here will find that out in a timely manner. There's a few knuckleheads on the MUD as there is any MUD, but that is pretty unfair to the rest of our players to pigeonhole them with the rest, as if its just one big bunch of louts. I've banned people who thought they were above a ban before and I intend to do it everytime it is required, friend or not. I'm pretty disgruntled with our being brought into comparison with dirty Achaea, I'll get over it, but that was a can of worms that did not need re-opening again, and on a public forum; at least get the facts straight. We have some very loyal and caring players, who play AR because its to their tastes. Obviously there's well-known and better looking alternatives to woo them away if they wanted to leave, the fact our supposedly prehistoric MUD still has 40-50 players that are happy here. Many of which who know full well what AR's history is about, since they also have their copies of the code from when it got leaked and passed around, and could have checked for themselves if we didn't tell them. Bleh, I waffled enough, sorry everyone.
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:36 PM   #14
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I thought this thread was about Achaea. Make your own!
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Old 02-11-2003, 07:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Davairus @ Feb. 10 2003,22:15)
This post is a rare display of openness because you attacked our muds players.
I attacked *a* MUD's *previous* players for stupid stuff I saw happen a few years ago, and posted it as an example of the maturity level of some MUD players. As I recall that all happened way before you ever became an Imm, much less an Imp. MUD players become MUD Imms, which might explain some of the behaviour you see, and indeed in Terloch's example of Achaea I'd say this bears true.

I didn't even mention names until you decided to attack the other MUD's Imps. Although I must admit having played AR for so long in the past I find some of FL's advertisements a bit... off. I certainly didn't compare AR to Achaea, as I've no doubt AR is a far better game than Achaea.

I suggest we drop it there. This will be my last comment on the subject as the topic is skewing off track.

Terloch, idiots are idiots, regardless of whether they are players or manage to become Imms. In the case of Achaea I'd say that not only did you get one of the idiots, you probably got one of the ones whos mentality is "We're one of the biggest, screw everyone else we rock.". Unfortunate, but not unknown.
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Old 02-22-2003, 08:44 PM   #16
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Yeah, some games are poorly designed, poorly implemented, but well-funded and thereby sucessful. I oppose this strongly.

However, if someone came on my game and said that someone had badmouthed their game in favor of mine, I'd say, "That's too bad, but I don't care.' I mean the incident is only indirectly even linked to me. Relax. People like that only want you to get all puffed up and ****ed off. Hopefully, you know you've got a better game than that, and he's an idiot. You HAV NO RECOURSE to punish ignorance. And banning an IP doesn't exactly help anyone realize the merits of your system.

Now, I expect to be flamed to a certain extent for this, but c'mon guys. Let's get serious. It's NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.

-Xanes -=- Lone Coder WinterMUTE
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Old 02-22-2003, 08:46 PM   #17
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s/V NO RE/VE NO RE/
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Old 02-22-2003, 08:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (xanes @ Feb. 22 2003,20:44)
... if someone came on my game and said that someone had badmouthed their game in favor of mine, I'd say, "That's too bad, but I don't care.'  ....
I haven't read Captain America in a number of years and from what I recall I don't think this sort of attitude would do Cap proud.

Might want to change your avatar.
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Old 02-22-2003, 09:08 PM   #19
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The avatar has a special significance to me because my first character was an anagram of the word AMERICA.

And I do not take offense at being informed that I do not have the altruist attitude of a super-hero.

Besides, you've stripped my context in your quote. Are you seriously saying that you would jump up and try to punish your players for something that happened somewhere else, stemming from their dedication to your game? Surely Captain America understands logical juristiction.

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Old 02-22-2003, 09:41 PM   #20
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Actually, I wouldn't say I would jump up and down about it, but I would make, and have made, an effort in the past to curb some of my more excessive players from doing things I would believe in poor taste. Even posting a note in a general place on the MU*l asking players not to do this is an attempt.

Its just bad form.

There was also a player who posted the same highly positive review (of the mud I was running at the time) under different alias' every few days. When I noticed he was spamming the board, I emailed Syn and asked him to strip them down, as well as apologized. I noted the player and asked him not to do it again.

Its not like I did a lot, but sometimes a step above apathy is all it takes.

http://www.insidevc.com/vcs....00.html
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