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Old 09-23-2002, 11:34 PM   #141
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Personally, I think someone somewhere (be it with or without Achaea's admin's knowledge) is up to something hokey, since in the past few days, with a playerbase that's a mere fraction of ours, Achaea has STILL been able to maintain a lead of around 600 votes on DR.  At some point, even with your players voting every 12 hours, you simply are going to run out of players left to vote.  Instead, you continue to pull away.
Well, it does seem like their average vote tally was around 1000-1200 before. Now that someone else is close to them, it's over 2000.

Note: I don't care if Achaea is #1. I'm not accusing anyone on Achaea's staff of skewing the vote. But perhaps a group of savvy players are taking a competitive spirit to extremes? I'd imagine Achaea would rather hold the #1 spot without having to defend themselves at every turn.

On another note: yes, pay to play MUDs are different than free MUDs. They have a greater supply of resources (&#036 to develop their games with. Games like DR and GS3, with their larger player bases, also have an another advantage of a greater player pool to pull developers and customer service volunteers from. Please don't hate us because we're big and 'corporate'. We love this genre of gaming just as much as you do.

Alicia,
DragonRealms player
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Old 09-23-2002, 11:37 PM   #142
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Think about this (really, do): If they are taking the effort to VOTE to get a bonus on the MUD they are playing, then they are interested in building their character. If they are bothering to play so much, then they obviously don't hate Achaea.
I have plenty of customers who are VERY interested in building their characters who don't necessarily think we're the best game out there. Heck, some of them hate every single thing we do, but they're hooked on "something" about the game, be it the community or the emotional investment or whatever.

As you can see a couple of the negative reviews about DR in the review section...I doubt these people are voting, but I can promise you they'd do everything in their power to vote if I gave them an EXP bonus.

I see your point...I just don't necessarily think it's living up to the spirit of the rankings to buy votes. Let the merits of the game speak for themselves. Seems like everyone else is willing to let their own games be evaluated without bias.
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Old 09-23-2002, 11:45 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Sep. 23 2002,11:24 pm)
6 pm-->
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Mason @ Sep. 23 2002,9[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6 pm)][Again, your arrogance astounds me.  In response to the accusations that your actions disharmonize the community, you merely claim there is no community so as to give yourself immunity from any responsibility of your actions.  If you are as arrogant, condescending, and dismissive to your players as you are to the boards, then I feel sorry for them.  If not, then I'll just assume you only consider it a community if people pay to talk to each other.

I've been thinking about your mean-spirited comment.  I just thought I would let you know that if I were truly mean-spirited, I would have merely reported you to the Federal Trade Commission or your state regulatory body alleging violations of the consumer fraud acts.  Which, by the way, anyone on this board could do.
If there exists a MUD community, how could I -possibly- be disharmonizing it when only a couple hundred people are reading any of this? There's hundreds of thousands of text MUDers.

These forums are a community, there's no question about it. I, however, didn't do anything to disrupt it, and didn't violate any of its rules. It's you and a couple others who decided to begin attacking us, despite the fact that none of the objects of your attack attacked anyone else first.

Your comment about the FTC is just another example of your character. We've never had any problems with them, and don't expect to, as Achaea runs an ethical business, whatever you may think.

--matt
Just because you haven't had any problems yet with the FTC doesn't mean you aren't in violation of any consumer fraud regulations. If you are attributing a quote to a source fraudulently in order to attract customers, that is a clear violation.

I am curious as to how the fact that you may be breaking a law is an example of my character?
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Old 09-23-2002, 11:48 PM   #144
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That "something", if it causes them to spend hours on your MUD, in my opinion, could probably be counted as a vote without much grief happening.

So, even if they hate achaea, they do spend hours on it (it takes several hours just to get familiar with the world, so if they play long enough to get that message, they've been playing for quite a bit).

I'm not arguing with you about the "spirit" of it - that's more up to the TMS admins. Several MUDs on the top 20 have global/imm announcements giving the link to "vote for us on topmudsites!". I think that's a little whack too. But if it's really getting to the point where it's a problem, the administrator will add that to the rules...

That's just my opinion on this.
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:03 AM   #145
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That "something", if it causes them to spend hours on your MUD, in my opinion, could probably be counted as a vote without much grief happening.
Exactly...I think that's why I'm content with a solid, un-tainted second place and having around 1000 people logged in instead of a community-questioned first place and 250 people in-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'm not arguing with you about the "spirit" of it - that's more up to the TMS admins.
Yup...sounds like you and I are on the same page on this.

I'm content with letting Adam do what he thinks is best in this situation.  I get leery when I even consider saying anything about the dubious tallies...I mean...we just got here and all...I don't want to rock this boat and more than I already have.

I'm still amazed at some of the almost militant animosity though...really...I'm not a bad guy!  We aren't a bad company!

No!  I promise! ::weeps::

Lub me?
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:19 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by (Aeledius @ Sep. 23 2002,10:19 pm)
Between calling everything stupid (his main arguement in most discussions), saying that he's successful, and thus we should all listen to him, repeatedly quoting rules and regulations that he is not breaking while skirting the issue that has little or nothing to do with rules, and in most cases arguing like a two year old with his mother about having dessert instead of supper.

"there's no such thing as the mud community."

Anyone in the mudding community knows that there is.  The fact that numerous people have mentioned it during there posts only backs this up.  The fact that you don't know about it because you are not a part of it, doesn't make this line any more valid.

"If anyone has a problem with any of that, that person is unlikely to be someone whose opinion is worth anything to me."

If our opinions don't matter, then stop responding.  Adults know to ignore a two year old, because they will stop once they get bored, only other two year olds get upset and retaliate claiming it doesn't bother them.

"My man, what you think of me is entirely irrelevant. Success is the universal balm. You carry right on with your mean-spirited attacks. It only gets us more business."

Nearly the same thing, if you don't care, shut up.  Also, this seems to be a reacurring theme in many of your posts, be they here or on other sites and forums: I'm a success, so I'm better than you, and thus you should listen to me.  I will admit, Achaea is a success, but in my opinion, you are not.



"Once again, I fail to understand why you're equating votes with quality. I don't do it, anywhere, and I'm not sure where you think you saw it being done by me, or by anyone else in the Achaean administration."

What the hell are you talking about?? I quote: "Voted the #1 MUD on Earth." This is from MudConnector.com's ads.  This specifically says you are the #1 mud.  Now, most of us know you don't have the largest player base (by far), you probably don't have the most profitable MUD either, and I happen to know for a fact that a good deal of your player base is only there because there friends are, most of them hate Achaea and expect it to be run into the ground.

"Quality is subjective, and no doubt most of our players think Achaea is a far better game, and most of DR and Gemstone's players think those games are far better games."

I doubt that highly.  Most of your players think you have a good playerbase.  End of thought.

"Are you accusing us of lying, cheating, and stealing? I really hope not. "

Lying? YES, Cheating? YES.  Read the damn posts, I thought it was quite obvious what we were accusing you off.  As for stealing, no, but it wouldn't suprise me in the least.

"My responsibility is to my investors and partners, my players, and my employees, in that order."

You forgot one:  Your customers.  Which, I might add, he holds higher than any other group put together.  Those who have played Achaea know that credits are the almighty ruling system.  If you have bought credits (the more, the better) You can get away with anything, and everything.  Now, it is true that he has made some token punishments of those who have bought credits, but I'm sure it was not before he found out they were never going to buy again.

"I also notice your quote doesn't say, "World leader in text-based multplayer gaming." It says, "leader in online games" which is blatantly false."

How can you even bring this up?!? You yourself claim that you are the best MUD out there, which has already earned you the seat of the "mudding communities" village idiot.  But now you say noone else has to right to make as blatantly false lies?  *You hear a whisper from the judges table, "Can we get a dictionary definition of hypocracy?"*

"And as for losing players to us, you might ask some of your ex-GMs who play Achaea now."

Who the hell cares.  I'm sure many of your players have gone and played there.  The fact that later on you can't even back up this quote makes it even more laughable.  For that matter, I have many of your players that say my MUD (only in alpha) is already better than Achaea.

"You claim people wouldn't vote as much if we didn't reward them."



In any event, I hope you all found this entertaining, and enlightening.  As for you Matt, please, if your going to attempt to be part of the "mudding community" that you don't believe exists, bring some more wit, and preferably an adult to proofread your posts and stop you from saying the things you should know by now not to.  Cause right now, you don't seem to have a very high standing in it.  Plus the constant reminder that you think your better than you are (IE, your #1 ads all over the place) are just plain annoying.
Once again, someone decides to get personal. It's getting very tiring.

In reply to your various 'points': Mentioning something doesn't make it exist, and in any case, while it's the word 'meaningful' in 'meaningful community' (read the whole post) that I'm concerned with. There's a MUD community in the same sense that there's a community of PC users. It possesses very little community consciousness. This SITE has a community, as I've mentioned, and it's a meaningful one, but is a miniscule percentage of MUDers.

I didn't say your opinions don't matter, unless you hold the opinion that you have some right to a free MUDing experience, in which case yes, your opinion doesn't matter to me (even if you can play my games for free, which is a privilege, not a right.)

I don't think I'm better than anyone else as a person. I don't even believe in the idea of being "better" than someone, as that makes no sense to me. I do think I'm better at running a
text MUD than many, but not all, people, and I think the evidence bears that out. Does that mean, or even imply, that I'm better than you? Of course not. Does it mean that my opinions on the subject of running a text MUD are likely to contain some validity? Probably, but that's no different from the validity that Kavir's or David Bennet's (Discworld)'s opinions carry as a result of their success.

<not responding to a couple of your comments, as they're content-less>

The ad on Mudconnector has nothing to do with the rankings at this site, which you'd know if you weren't in such a hurry to attack us. In July 2000, we were voted #1 by the users of gamers.com. That ad has been running there far longer than we've been listed here.

As for people hating Achaea, well, if they hate it, I hope they continue to, because our growth has recently really picked up, particularly in the last 3 months.

As for our playerbase, I can see how you're in a position to know a lot more than me about it. Clearly.

As for my responsibility, all my players are customers in my mind, whether they have bought anything yet or not. You sound like quite a bitter person. Did you get banned for misbehaving?

The -only- reason I brought up the 'leader in online games' thing, is because you had poked at us about it first. Shrug. Again, just keep in mind that all these attacks have been started by you and a few others. Stop making me out to be the asshole here.

Finally, if you find our ads annoying, don't click on them. It's pretty simple really. I find a lot of ads annoying. I just don't buy their product. Anyone can claim he or she was voted #1 you know. I'm sure some group of people somewhere can be polled that will vote you #1 if that's what you need to do. The job of our advertising isn't to make you happy. It's to get people to play Achaea, and the ads work.

--matt
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:31 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (SimuBubba @ Sep. 23 2002,11:20 pm)
I think the biggest issue at hand here is this:

The people voting for Achaea aren't (necessarily) voting becuse they think Achaea is #1.  Many of them (I guarantee) are voting because they're getting something out of it.

This (from my talks with various people in the TMS cummunity) is what has people upset.

Many of the admins and ops and imms who are on this list feel that the simple fact that your numbers are inflated with people who probably couldn't care less about the rankings, the exposure, the traffic sent here, or even the community on TMS basically cheapens the whole rankings system.  The rankings list is now not about who the community feels is number one, but rather who can dangle enough carrots in front of their players noses to make the little numbers get bigger.

Personally, I think someone somewhere (be it with or without Achaea's admin's knowledge) is up to something hokey, since in the past few days, with a playerbase that's a mere fraction of ours, Achaea has STILL been able to maintain a lead of around 600 votes on DR.  At some point, even with your players voting every 12 hours, you simply are going to run out of players left to vote.  Instead, you continue to pull away.

So something is wonky in Happyville and according to the listed rules, its on Achaea's shoulders to find out what's going on, not simply to say "Oh well...we just are better at marketing and driving people to this site and you're just all jealous.".
Many people, probably most, who vote for a MUD do so to support the MUD, not necessarily because they see it as the best MUD. Those may often be one and the same, but certainly not always.

The rankings list has always been about who can drive the most traffic here. Do you really think no one has done this before? I've heard lots of (admittedly second-hand) stories about MUDs rewarding everyone online if their votes on this site could be increased by X amount in the next hour. We just got more organized about it, that's all.

And I promise you no one is up to anything hokey, or at least, to my knowledge. It's simply that we're giving them a reason to vote. We were listed on here a few days before we started incentivizing voting, and though we got to #3 quickly. Your player base is huge, but judging by the number of votes you have, few of your players are voting regularly. You guys must have what, 10,000 subscribers, at least, I'd think, but over the space of a few days, you've 'only' gotten 1500 votes. That's a very small percentage of your population voting. The percentage of our population that is voting is quite a lot bigger. Most of our players only vote every 24 hours, incidentally, or at least, only some of our players know. We only give the reward every 24 hours in any case. I mean, this current round of voting has been going for a number of days now. If it's been going for 5 days, we only needed slightly over 400 players to vote, each once a day.

--matt
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:37 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by (Mason @ Sep. 23 2002,11:45 pm)
Just because you haven't had any problems yet with the FTC doesn't mean you aren't in violation of any consumer fraud regulations.  If you are attributing a quote to a source fraudulently in order to attract customers, that is a clear violation.

I am curious as to how the fact that you may be breaking a law is an example of my character?
It's an example of your willingness to slander someone. You've got no proof whatsoever (there exists none), but you're happy to throw around things in the spirit of "Well, maybe you're breaking the law. I'm not SAYING you are, but you know, you're an asshole, so you probably are."

--matt
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:45 AM   #149
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No, I have never been banned by your game, and in fact have played for a few years, including a lengthy stint as a guide.  As I said, I have absolutely nothing against your code, nor its players, nor even most of its administration.  Infact, one of your gods I count a good aquaintance.  But after playing there for so long, ones eyes begin to open to how it is run at the upper levels.

For most muds, the number one concern is (and most mud admin will agree with this I'm sure) the players and they're enjoyment.  Pure and simple.  At Achaea, it seems to be, the players and how much money I can get from them before they find out what we're like.

Did you ever stop to wonder why the "mudding community" has always attacked your MUD?  You may think its because your pay to play, but its not.  You may think its because you claim to not be pay to play, but you are, but its not.  Its because of how you run it, plain and simple.

If it was just one thing, I'm sure noone would bother, but it seems to be many.  And is this personal, yes, because it is how YOU run Achaea, not what Achaea has done as a whole.  This is the administrators forum.

That is why this thread is called Achaea's LATEST attempt to claim #1.  It is not the first.  I think your quotes on your page are, which, although they may or may not be false, are just without any real bearing.  I don't post on my site that my sister says my MUD is the best, because as nice is it is for me to hear it, no else really cares. Second is your absurd post on MudConnector.com.  The fact that you have the odacity to proclaim yourself as the #1, but then, to switch it over to Aetolia with no explaination (not that it matters cause its baseless) is just ludicrous. Finally, after years(?) of people saying you shouldn't be doing this because your not, you finally devise a scheme which, for some idiotice reason, you think will make everything alright.  But, many of us feel it violates the SPIRIT of the votes.  THIS is the problem that we are addressing in this thread. Not that its illegal, because its obviously not, but that we feel, and I think our feelings are valid, the fact that there have been an insane number of posts on this topic shows this, that it is in violation of a higher rule, that of ethics.

In any event, I did try to stop it from being personal, but I feel you threw the first stone there.  As with children, you cannot argue rationally until they get it out of there system, and I am as much a child as you are, I will admit to that.  Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of the hand of a parent to guide us here, forcefully or otherwise.

Now, I hope we have gotten our ranting and raving our of our system, and we can continue like the adults we pretend to be.
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:03 AM   #150
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[
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Your player base is huge, but judging by the number of votes you have, few of your players are voting regularly. You guys must have what, 10,000 subscribers, at least, I'd think, but over the space of a few days, you've 'only' gotten 1500 votes. That's a very small percentage of your population voting.
You're correct, of course. Other than one initial in-game announcement in DR, there's been no notification to players that the voting button is there on the website (and that one announcement crashed this site with people rushing to vote all at once). No notification was made in GS3, period. The only mention of TMS (other than the vote button itself) has been in player threads on the forums for those games (and the forum regulars account for maybe 10% of the total game population). I think the lack of publicity can be attributed to Simutronics being polite and not wanting to overload the system. Since players don't need to go to the website to play the game, voting promotion is mostly word-of-mouth.

I'm not trying to make excuses for why DR and GS3 are #'s 2 and 3 while your product is #1. I think it's great that you've managed to foster a sense of pride and togetherness by encouraging your players to vote. I'm just saying that you can attribute the difference in population percentages voting to the fact that you DO actively promote voting while Simutronics has not. Any hype on our side is due to the 'newness' and player enthusiasm.

BTW, am I committing a faux pas in posting on this forum even though I am not an admin or builder, but rather an enthusiastic player?

Alicia,
DragonRealms player
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:09 AM   #151
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I find it funny that before I went to work, I made a post on page 10. After a tedious night of selling porn, I see 5 more pages of quote-replies upon quote-replies. I skipped pages 13 anf 14, only to find I missed nothing. I swear everything was said on page 1.

I think we need a new thread simply to summarize this thread.

As quoted by Jesus himself from a piece of notebook paper I found, "I love Moosehead SLED! It's the only mud any higher power should play!"

I wonder if page 20 will be here tomorrow.
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:11 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Sep. 24 2002,12:37 am)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Mason @ Sep. 23 2002,11:45 pm)
Just because you haven't had any problems yet with the FTC doesn't mean you aren't in violation of any consumer fraud regulations.  If you are attributing a quote to a source fraudulently in order to attract customers, that is a clear violation.

I am curious as to how the fact that you may be breaking a law is an example of my character?
It's an example of your willingness to slander someone. You've got no proof whatsoever (there exists none), but you're happy to throw around things in the spirit of "Well, maybe you're breaking the law. I'm not SAYING you are, but you know, you're an asshole, so you probably are."

--matt
1. Learn the law before you throw accusations around. Slander is an oral falsity, libel is a written one. One cannot be accused of slander for something that is written down. Moreover, it is not libel to say that someone might be in violation of the law if the alleged accusation is true.

2. I never accused you of anything other than to let you know that you may be in violation of consumer fraud regulations as well as susceptible to a civil suit for false implied endorsement.

3. I never said I had proof, only that information had been relayed to me.

If you wish to assume the worse about me that is fine. You have constantly insulted my intelligence and intentions. I never called you an asshole, but your continual diversion of the issues by namecalling and supposition sure lives up to that definition.
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:13 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aeledius @ Sep. 24 2002,12:45 am)
For most muds, the number one concern is (and most mud admin will agree with this I'm sure) the players and they're enjoyment.  Pure and simple.  At Achaea, it seems to be, the players and how much money I can get from them before they find out what we're like.

Did you ever stop to wonder why the "mudding community" has always attacked your MUD?  You may think its because your pay to play, but its not.  You may think its because you claim to not be pay to play, but you are, but its not.  Its because of how you run it, plain and simple.

If it was just one thing, I'm sure noone would bother, but it seems to be many.  And is this personal, yes, because it is how YOU run Achaea, not what Achaea has done as a whole.  This is the administrators forum.

That is why this thread is called Achaea's LATEST attempt to claim #1.  It is not the first.  I think your quotes on your page are, which, although they may or may not be false, are just without any real bearing.  I don't post on my site that my sister says my MUD is the best, because as nice is it is for me to hear it, no else really cares. Second is your absurd post on MudConnector.com.  The fact that you have the odacity to proclaim yourself as the #1, but then, to switch it over to Aetolia with no explaination (not that it matters cause its baseless) is just ludicrous. Finally, after years(?) of people saying you shouldn't be doing this because your not, you finally devise a scheme which, for some idiotice reason, you think will make everything alright.  But, many of us feel it violates the SPIRIT of the votes.  THIS is the problem that we are addressing in this thread. Not that its illegal, because its obviously not, but that we feel, and I think our feelings are valid, the fact that there have been an insane number of posts on this topic shows this, that it is in violation of a higher rule, that of ethics.

In any event, I did try to stop it from being personal, but I feel you threw the first stone there.  As with children, you cannot argue rationally until they get it out of there system, and I am as much a child as you are, I will admit to that.  Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of the hand of a parent to guide us here, forcefully or otherwise.

Now, I hope we have gotten our ranting and raving our of our system, and we can continue like the adults we pretend to be.
Our first priority is making an environment enjoyable enough that players will pay us money for it. Pure and simple. Considering we still have some players spending hundreds a year, who have been playing for 4+ years, I'd say we're doing a decent job of it.

And I don't wonder why the mudding community has always attacked the MUD, because it hasn't. A few vocal individuals have, but their opinions are not representative, and generally to be ignored, as they're not potential players of ours anyway.

And if no one cares about our advertising, how come the ads work? I mean, that's the only metric for advertising that matters. They bring in players, and that's what ads are for.

As for the spirit of the votes, well, that's your opinion, and the opinion of a handful of other vocal people. If you actually object to it though, do you seriously think you're going to get me to care about your opinion by ranting and raving at me? All it's doing is ensuring that the only reason I'm replying to your posts is for the other people reading. That kind of personal attack sure isn't designed to solve the 'problem' you speak of, which makes me wonder whether you care about solving what is a 'problem' in your view, or whether you're just interested in lashing out.

--matt
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:22 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (crymerci @ Sep. 24 2002,01:03 am)
You're correct, of course. Other than one initial in-game announcement in DR, there's been no notification to players that the voting button is there on the website (and that one announcement crashed this site with people rushing to vote all at once). No notification was made in GS3, period. The only mention of TMS (other than the vote button itself) has been in player threads on the forums for those games (and the forum regulars account for maybe 10% of the total game population). I think the lack of publicity can be attributed to Simutronics being polite and not wanting to overload the system. Since players don't need to go to the website to play the game, voting promotion is mostly word-of-mouth.

I'm not trying to make excuses for why DR and GS3 are #'s 2 and 3 while your product is #1. I think it's great that you've managed to foster a sense of pride and togetherness by encouraging your players to vote. I'm just saying that you can attribute the difference in population percentages voting to the fact that you DO actively promote voting while Simutronics has not. Any hype on our side is due to the 'newness' and player enthusiasm.

BTW, am I committing a faux pas in posting on this forum even though I am not an admin or builder, but rather an enthusiastic player?

Alicia,
DragonRealms player
Oh sure, I understand why they're not voting. I wasn't at all implying that DR and GS3 are somehow screwing up or have an apathetic playerbase. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The success of their games speaks for itself in my eyes. They're far more successful financially and in terms of number of players than we are, and I have a lot of respect for Simutronics, the people involved in it, and the games they put out. Sure, some people don't like them, but that's the case with any game. They've managed to build a text empire that dwarfs any other text company.

(No idea if you're committing a faux pas by posting here, though I kind of doubt you are, as I know some other posters are also not admins or builders.)

--matt
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:37 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by
It's simply that we're giving them a reason to vote.
I guess what I am just trying to say is:

Shouldn't your game, on it's own merits, be enough reason for them to vote?

Why taint the results?

And yes, the results are tainted.  Just as runners who break world records have to see those records nullified because a strong wind was blowing in their favor, except in this case, you're tying very strong fans to your runner's backs, putting them on roller skates, covering their lanes with grease, and giving them a 5 second head start on everyone else who's running the race the way it was meant to be run.
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:37 AM   #156
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As much 'fun' as this thread has been, it's wasting too much of my time. If Adam wants to change the rules, naturally we'll either conform to them, or stop sending traffic here. But until then, it's a dead topic from my end, as there's really nothing else to say. Some members of the community have a problem with it. Some don't. I think that pretty much sums it up.

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Old 09-24-2002, 01:47 AM   #157
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OOOHKAAY! I've been following this thread since I first saw the line "Achaea's recent attempt to claim #1" in the Recent Forums section, and followed it up to about page 11 or so, then I simply got too sick to proceed any further. So, I'll throw in my 2 cents here and be gone on my own business...

First, let me give my own (no doubt, highly opinionated) view of how this entire thread came to be:

1. Some person posts about Achaea supposedly bribing its' players to vote for it on TMS. To anyone who's been playing Achaea for some time it was obvious that this post was a result of the lack of readiness to investigate the actual facts, or any care for those facts at all. The post was driven by hurt feelings of a devoted player who's game wasn't in the top slot (and it sure must be there, 'cause it's much better than that piece of trash Achaea, and if it wasn't for Achaea's cheatin', bribin', and lyin' staff, my MUD would be number 1, no doubt about it).

2. Other people who watch the section jump in and support the claims made in the original post, likewise not caring in the very least about the facts, ethical, or at least business considerations.

3. Several posts are made to bring some perspective into this Achaea bashing.

4. And the dirt slinging begins! People post the same arguments over and over and over again, completely ignoring responses to their claims, and attempts to inform them about their misconceptions (btw, it is considered rude to talk without taking plugs out of your ears). People are using vocabulary of an 8 year old school kid: liar, cheater, trash, shut up, asshole etc. The atmosphere becomes dense and humid, the blood is pumping in the ears, the fists are clenched to the point of fingernails ripping the flesh of the palms...

I must admit that I was getting increasingly excited myself, when all of a sudden I saw a reply to one of yig's posts (don't remember by whom), which made everything crystal clear to me and made me calm down immediately. The reply read almost literaly: "Shut up and take a walk, since you have no place being here, where the old folks meet." Aha! I said to myself - that's what this whole thing is about.

As the_logos has already said many times before, but no one seemed to care to listen: the TMS rankings are not to figure out who is best and who is not, it benefits the entire community, since players are exposed to a large number of excellent MUDs and have a chance to try them out if they haven't become hooked on one of them already. I can see the truth in that, since I myself visited the sites of a great many of MUDs in the rankings. However, when a person sees a rankings page in his browser, he also notices a little box with the names of the recent forum posts, and one of those names includes the name of the top ranking MUD, so the person clicks on the link (why not, lets see what maschinations have got them in the lead) and voila - he sees this place...

The place where imms, gods, and very-very old players meet to dig up some slime and throw it on their competitors. Allow me to say that no IG reward for OOC actions (giving a player access to an IG event for a bunch of OOC US$ is somehow justified as being entirely different in your rationale, but I am not going to investigate this logical paradox) can hurt the player's RP more than the posts in this very thread. All I have left from this discussion in my head right now are on one side of my brain the words "Achaea", "DragonRealms", "GemstoneIII", and on the other - "liars", "cheaters", "bribery", "idiot", "asshole", and the list goes on to merge into one single concept - "dirt".

In this sense I'd like to give y'all an advice, which comes from a player who hasn't spent years on any MUD and hasn't been an Immortal or a God anywhere, but who happens to be one of those people who make up your player bases: if you want to bash each other and sling slime on each other, and you have not a care in the world about what people like me or yig think or have to say, then why don't you make this thread private and in its' privacy perform executions of those you don't like or you feel jealous about or who simply needs a good beating in your opinion. That way you'll be able to let out some steam without hurting your own creations - your games.

Someone has said here that Achaea's Immortals slander the high image of Immortals in general, I don't see how they do, but I can clearly see the image of Immortals that this discussion is creating in my head, and it ain't pretty. That is why I won't allow this whole thang to interfere with the fun I am having in Achaea any further, and will definitely not come back to read any responses, which might be posted to this so y'all might as well not bother.
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Old 09-24-2002, 04:36 PM   #158
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I just want to say I wanted to avoid this thread entirely, but a friend of mine told me about it. I vowed I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, but eventually curiousity got the better of me, and I read for 10 pages before stopping.

I want to say the lot of you are some of the smartest and most well-educated posters I have ever read. Some of you are also some of the smartest silly asses I have ever read as well.

To pretend that this mud list was at one point 'un-skewed' is the most ludicrous thing I ever heard. This listing just shows a total vote based on how many times a certain site got clicked, nothing more, nothing less. To say your vote is less skewed than others because your mudders 'REALLY' like your mud and other muds get votes cause someone strongarmed them into it is not true. Both voted. End of story. Why aren't you mad with your players that they don't vote more instead of being mad at other muds that do? Talk about childish.

The poster above me was much more eloquent but I agree that this thread is pointless. All you whiney babies go back to your MUDs and play them instead of wasting time on this board. This place(TMS) is about exposure for your MUD, nothing more, nothing less. Are all of you truly so emotionally invested in saying 'My MUD is the best mud!' so much so that you aren't playing it and are wasting your time here?

Look its bad enough most of us MUDders have no life except to mud. But when we give up mudding to spend our time trying to convince the rest of the world that our MUD is the absolute best like some moon-crazed jesuit is just insaaaaannne.
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