Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Tavern of the Blue Hand
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-29-2007, 11:46 AM   #241
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Several good answers to my post awhile back there that made some good sense in what people seem to want. After the several last posts, I got to thinking that because this Pay/Free debate is so important to so many of us, perhaps we could extend out the list. Like this:

A two item option can be checked, you check one of the two. If you check option 2 you do nothing else, however if you check option 1, you can check any or all of the subsequent check boxes.
---------------------------------------------------
[ ] This mud has some donation, registration, and/or payment features.


(Sub options, click as many as apply)
{ } Registration is part of this game.
{ } Donations are accepted.
{ } Rewards are part of donations/registrations/payments.
{ } Rewards are not part of donations/registrations/payments.
{ } All rewards in this game can be received without registration.
{ } All rewards in this game can be received without donations.
(There could be several more option boxes but I think you get the picture)

[ ] This mud does not accept money (donations/registrations/credits) in any form.
(No further option buttons here).
---------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Newworlds : 08-29-2007 at 01:25 PM.
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #242
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
What I hear you saying here is that you don't want to be forced to describe your MUD's payment model, which some people will react badly to, without also having the opportunity to describe the benefits of the payment model, which is that it supports full-time professional staff.
I want options that are factually accurate. That is why I fully support having 2 options that are based in fact:

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.

There is no wiggle room there. It is fair. It is accurate. It gives players the ability to find muds where there are absolutely no financial trasactions that could or do affect the gameplay (well, aside from third party influence).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
I agree with you that that's a tremendous benefit, and I wish devoutly that I could go full-time myself; I have a very distinct picture of the benefits it would have for my MUD. But, while I fully support the idea of adding that setting, but I don't think it needs to be made a "rider" on this one. If it's worth adding, it's worth adding on its own merits, and presumably worth discussing in its own thread.
The reason I think it is a legitimate rider is because it allows us to see if the folks behind the first change are truly and honestly motivated by a desire to give players useful information.

If they don't support the professional vs. hobbyist information, then clearly their motivation is NOT to give players valuable information, but is instead something far more insidious.

I actually do support giving players valuable information, which is why I think both sets of options should be added (if anything is added at all).

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.

and:

[ ] Professional Mud. Admins are paid and full time.
[ ] Hobbyist Mud. Admins are unpaid or not full time.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 03:15 PM   #243
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
If they don't support the professional vs. hobbyist information, then clearly their motivation is NOT to give players valuable information, but is instead something far more insidious.
I strongly disagree.

For starters, there should be no need for a good-faith
litmus test. That's kind of lame right there.

Beside that is the fact that this is a *separate* issue.

Finally, your reasoning is faulty. It is equivalent to:

"If you don't support this spending bill, then clearly your
motivation is not to support this country, but rather something far more insidious."

It's fallacious and it seriously does you no favors in portraying
yourself as a reasonable participant in the debate.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 03:18 PM   #244
Hephos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
Hephos is on a distinguished road
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.

There is no wiggle room there. It is fair. It is accurate.
I would not call that "accurate" from a players point of view (or mine). What if i want to search for muds that only have subscription fees. Or muds that are payforperks? Or muds that allow donations to make the mud grow but does not give ANY whatsoever perks or rewards?

You should have those options definable.

[] Money accepted
------------------------
...[] subscripton fees
...[] donations with rewards
...[] donations without rewards
...[] In-game merchandise sold
... whatever more options there can be

[] Money NOT accepted
--------------------------

Last edited by Hephos : 08-29-2007 at 03:25 PM.
Hephos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 03:25 PM   #245
chaosprime
Member
 
chaosprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Home MUD: Lost Souls
Posts: 199
chaosprime will become famous soon enough
Unhappy Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
The reason I think it is a legitimate rider is because it allows us to see if the folks behind the first change are truly and honestly motivated by a desire to give players useful information.
My belief that you're acting in good faith is eroding kinda rapidly. It's looking more like you believe that you'll somehow benefit from the selections carrying the message that all MUDs that accept money in any form are the same, so whichever type of revenue structure you have is no different from a MUD with a cafepress store where you can get shirts with their logo on it.

I feel as if you're sort of humiliating yourself by trying to conceal your payment model that way. You're a professional MUD administrator, man; you'd earn a lot more respect by stepping up and calling a spade a spade. If you have the guts to base a business plan on it, you ought to have the guts to stand up in public and say that X, Y, and Z is exactly the way you do business and you're okay with it. If you're not proud enough of what you're doing to do that, then that's something you need to give some serious examination.

You might feel like you're committed to the tack you've been taking, that you'd be opening yourself to ridicule by changing positions, but I'd ask you to seriously reconsider that. It's never too late to do things better than you were a minute ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
If they don't support the professional vs. hobbyist information, then clearly their motivation is NOT to give players valuable information, but is instead something far more insidious.
That argument is very nearly paranoid. That interpretation is not necessary in any way. The mostly likely explanation for any such lack of support is that they find it tangential to the issue at hand.
chaosprime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:37 PM   #246
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

<Snip: Removed other discussion and placed in new thread - Xerihae>

To get back to the matter at hand, I'm still happy with the following:

Quote:
[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Neither Payment nor donations accepted.
Combined with the text area, this seems to cover everything.

Last edited by Xerihae : 08-30-2007 at 11:21 AM.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:50 PM   #247
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephos View Post
I would not call that "accurate" from a players point of view (or mine). What if i want to search for muds that only have subscription fees. Or muds that are payforperks? Or muds that allow donations to make the mud grow but does not give ANY whatsoever perks or rewards?
Those details are far better answered via an explicit explanation from the mud operator, from information off their web site, or from information inside their game.

No set of checkboxes is going to accurately and honestly convey this information.

If you want to search for muds that only have subscription fees, or pay for perks, then you select the first option, and narrow it down from there.

The point is, the following is actually accurate and does not inject vagueness or wiggle room into the issue:

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:56 PM   #248
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
I feel as if you're sort of humiliating yourself by trying to conceal your payment model that way. You're a professional MUD administrator, man; you'd earn a lot more respect by stepping up and calling a spade a spade.
Woah there. Humiliating myself? Lets not get carried away.

Threshold has NEVER hidden its payment systems or plans. You cannot even finish character creation without being FORCED to read a detailed helpfile that lists EVERY possible perk you can pay for.

But I don't want to be forced into describing my mud in a way that is inaccurate, just so some other guy can lie about the fact that they sell merchandise, and that people who buy t-shirts get bonus xp every other Thursday, and somehow that is not considered "pay for perks" in his eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
That argument is very nearly paranoid. That interpretation is not necessary in any way. The mostly likely explanation for any such lack of support is that they find it tangential to the issue at hand.
It isn't tangential at all. If the goal is giving players valuable information, then lets improve the whole system at once. Lets not just add one small thing to benefit the whims of a very small, very vocal handful of people.

The Professional vs. Hobbyist option idea has been around as long as the multiple payment plan options. So if the goal is giving players valuable information, lets do it right. And most importantly, lets do it by creating options based on fact, not vague opinion and interpretation.

These options are factual:

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.

The other countless versions of options that include things like rewards, what kind of rewards, how expensive the rewards, whether the rewards can be obtained in game as well, etc. are incredibly vague and prone to abuse and dishonesty.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:59 PM   #249
Valg
Moderator
 
Valg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 643
Valg will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
If you want to search for muds that only have subscription fees, or pay for perks, then you select the first option, and narrow it down from there.
This seems confusing compared to just searching for "I only want Pay for Perks", or some other multiple-choice option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
The point is, the following is actually accurate and does not inject vagueness or wiggle room into the issue:
[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.
It's extremely vague regarding what a player often cares about-- there's a vast gap between "It's OK if you chip in for the server, but you don't have to." and "$X required to register an account." The suggestions with 4-5 binary options do a much better job of describing this.
Valg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 06:16 PM   #250
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valg View Post
This seems confusing compared to just searching for "I only want Pay for Perks", or some other multiple-choice option.
How is it confusing? Don't just throw out words with negative connotations without explaining HOW it is confusing.

A pay for perks mud would choose the first option, and absolutely anyone who was looking for a pay for perks mud would know to choose the first option for their search. Would they then have to narrow their search down by READING the text box? Yes they would. But we are talking about muds here. So what if a tiny bit of additional reading is involved. At least the search options themselves were kept accurate.

There is absolutely nothing confusing about that whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valg View Post
It's extremely vague regarding what a player often cares about-- there's a vast gap between "It's OK if you chip in for the server, but you don't have to." and "$X required to register an account." The suggestions with 4-5 binary options do a much better job of describing this.
It isn't vague whatsoever. Inclusiveness does not equal vagueness. My two options are the opposite of vague: they are explicit, specific, and accurate.

The gap between two different payment systems is nothing compared to the gap between accepting money in some form and not accepting money in any form. That is the true gap that really makes the most critical difference. My options actually clearly differentiate between those two realities. All the other sets of options don't.

Also, there is no such thing as 4-5 binary options. If it is binary, there are 2 options. Come on man, you work with computers you know that.

What is the problem here? Why are you so against a set of options that is actually accurate, and does not CREATE ways for someone to game the system?

The suggestions that have more than 2 options create a whole new set of problems and inaccuracies. Whether or not money EVER changes hands for ANY reasons is the only issue that can be factually stated.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 06:23 PM   #251
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
I invite you to start a thread to discuss it, so that this thread can continue to focus on the payment system discussion.
Well said. So, back to the payment system:

Quote:
[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Neither Payment nor donations accepted.
This is also very similar to Hephos's suggestion, except that he's separated "Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game." into "donations without rewards" and "In-game merchandise sold". Personally I don't think such a distinction is necessary, as it's not really very important and is the sort of thing that could be mentioned in the text area.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 06:29 PM   #252
Valg
Moderator
 
Valg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 643
Valg will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Also, there is no such thing as 4-5 binary options. If it is binary, there are 2 options. Come on man, you work with computers you know that.
It's correct to say that if you have four or five options that can individually be checked 'yes' or 'no', you have four or five binary options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
What is the problem here? Why are you so against a set of options that is actually accurate, and does not CREATE ways for someone to game the system?
I think your proposed system provides no useful information to the searcher, and is so vague as to be the most useless option of the many presented. I also think that the obfuscation is fully intentional.
Valg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 06:40 PM   #253
chaosprime
Member
 
chaosprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Home MUD: Lost Souls
Posts: 199
chaosprime will become famous soon enough
Question Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
But I don't want to be forced into describing my mud in a way that is inaccurate
Is "Payment/donations accepted, rewarded in-game" an inaccurate description of Threshold's payment model? If so, how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
just so some other guy can lie about the fact that they sell merchandise
I don't think there's a lot of point in basing our criteria on what liars will do. If that's an argument against one set of criteria, it's an argument against any other. To my way of thinking, the point is to make sure that an admin acting in good faith knows what option to select for his MUD, that these options provide clear and useful distinctions for players, and, as much as is feasible, that the admin doesn't feel pressured to select a category that may be misleading.

Faced with "pay-to-play", "pay-for-perks", "donations unrewarded in-game", and "no money at all" as selections, I don't believe that anyone acting like a grown-up is going to have a problem figuring out what to click on.

The case you describe of the guy who sells t-shirts that come with XP every Thursday and selects "unrewarded donations" is simple: he's wrong. It's not the fault of the categories, because the categories describe his situation unambiguously; he has simply selected the wrong one.
chaosprime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 07:33 PM   #254
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valg View Post
I think your proposed system provides no useful information to the searcher, and is so vague as to be the most useless option of the many presented. I also think that the obfuscation is fully intentional.
The only people my system is not useful to are people who want to sell merchandise and pretend that isn't accepting money for their game.

There is nothing vague about making a verifiable, accurate claim that is not ruined by actually vague concepts like "rewarded in game" or whether something is a "donation" or not.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 07:53 PM   #255
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
vague concepts like "rewarded in game"
Remind me how that's vague?


Quote:
whether something is a "donation" or not.
As far as I know, referring to it as "Payment and/or donations"
addresses the possible uncertainty here.

I don't think this is vague at all:

Quote:
[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Neither Payment nor donations accepted.
Perhaps it could use the addition of a checkbox for out-of-game
rewards for payment (mousepads, whatever).

Perhaps it could use the addition of a text box for folks who
really really need to specify something that somehow
doesn't suit the body of their listing.

But *fewer* options doesn't strike me as *more* helpful in a search.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 08:14 PM   #256
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Many of you are arguing over the 2 option pay/no pay and the 4 option pay/no pay.

Does anyone want to consider this model, of 2 options, with relevant check boxes besides me and Hephos? The benefit would be that you could search for commercial muds, completely free muds, or all muds that meet your criteria.

---------------------------------------------------
[ ] This mud has some donation, registration, and/or payment features.


(Sub options, click as many as apply)
{ } Registration is part of this game.
{ } Donations are accepted.
{ } Rewards are part of donations/registrations/payments.
{ } Rewards are not part of donations/registrations/payments.
{ } All rewards in this game can be received without registration.
{ } All rewards in this game can be received without donations.
(There could be several more option boxes but I think you get the picture)

[ ] This mud does not accept money (donations/registrations/credits) in any form.

---------------------------------------------------
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 08:59 PM   #257
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post

Quote:
vague concepts like "rewarded in game"
Remind me how that's vague?
That's an easy one. What exactly is a reward? I guarantee you we could have an equally long thread as this one debating what exactly constitutes a reward.

Some people think it is not a reward if it is just a short cut. If the same thing can be obtained in game, then some people feel (perhaps rightly) it is not truly a reward to pay for it with money, credits, tokens, etc.

What about a special emote for "donators"? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so.

What about letting donators "re-string" an item (change the description) of their choice? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so.

What about a little medallion that you can wear that signifies you paid something? Is that a reward? Again, some people don't think so.

What about a list in the game or on the web site of people that bought merchandise or sent in money for hardware? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so, but some people do.

Regarding lists, special emotes, medallions, or other indicators of having bought things or "donated", let me draw a real life analogy. Why do you think people put those "Donator to the Fraternal Order of Police" stickers on their car? Because they are proud of their donation? Not likely. It is more likely that they think/hope a police officer will be less likely to give them a ticket when he or she sees the sticker. This is the same sort thing people receive if there is ANY notification anywhere of who sent money or bought anything. In my view, that is a reward.

What about getting more attention from the admins when they have a problem? Is that a reward? Some would say no, and some would say this would never happen. But it is ignorant of human nature to think some guy who sent in $500 for RAM isn't going to get the admin's ear a little quicker if he has a problem. In fact, this is precisely why I think it is bogus for anyone to claim there is ever "no reward" once money changes hands. As soon as there is a financial transaction, the likelihood of there being some kind of reward is highly likely. I mean MUDs aren't charities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
But *fewer* options doesn't strike me as *more* helpful in a search.
Fewer options that are actually accurate are better than more options that are inaccurate and prone to abuse and misinterpretation.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 09:41 PM   #258
Detah
New Member
 
Detah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 14
Detah is on a distinguished road
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).
[ ] No money accepted in any form.
This is an easy system. Yes. But it provides no useful information to the mudsearcher. I see two probems with it.

1) 99% of all muds would fall into category #1, essentailly making this an ALL selection anyway. I don't recall ever seeing a mud that outright 'rejected' donations.

2) For simplicity lets say that there are 2000 total muds. And 1750 of them select the first box. [I realize this is not consistent with my 99% statement above. But I think this makes my point nonetheless.] This method actually punishes the paymuds. Suppose I am a potential player and I believe that 'money accepted in some form' (specifically, a pay to register mud) is a signal for higher quality, so I select that option. Now when I get my results I have to wade through 1750 muds, most of which are your garden variety stock muds, with a volunteer staff, no fees, but donations are accepted (with or without some reward). Sure, other selection criterion will narrow the total results, but the free stock muds are lumped in with the quality paymuds. I think this is a waste of time for the potential player. If s/he is searching for a paymud (that is, a pay for registration mud), then s/he can get to your site much faster if you make it a box by itself.

That being said, I still think players should be able to select multiple 'types' in one search, as I stated before. Newworld's proposal with the 6 checkboxes is most appealing.

Detah@Arcania

Last edited by Detah : 08-29-2007 at 09:51 PM.
Detah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 12:09 AM   #259
Valg
Moderator
 
Valg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 643
Valg will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detah View Post
1) 99% of all muds would fall into category #1, essentailly making this an ALL selection anyway. I don't recall ever seeing a mud that outright 'rejected' donations.
Precisely. Threshold's proposal would be a new, useless system equal and opposite to the current, useless system. Presently, all MUDs self-identify as "free" despite widely varying financial models and expectations of payment, and the proposal is to create a system where all MUDs end up marked "commercial". In either case, the criteria is neutered for searching purposes.

The various forms of "answer yes or no to these 4 or 5 questions" plans would actually differentiate between games. This would strengthen the site's utility as a resource to MUD enthusiasts looking for a specific type of game to play. Those that don't want to need to spend money can find their game, and those that prefer a pay-for-perks system can find their game.

Informative, accurate labeling.
Valg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 12:49 AM   #260
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detah View Post
1) 99% of all muds would fall into category #1, essentailly making this an ALL selection anyway. I don't recall ever seeing a mud that outright 'rejected' donations.
New Worlds rejects payment or donations of any kind. Many players have asked to donate and have been rejected. But I see what you mean, most would not.
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014