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Old 04-28-2008, 01:22 AM   #81
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Thumbs up Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Not bad LoD, not bad at all.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:12 AM   #82
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

I thought I'd throw out a different kind of permadeath, that which many MUSHes/MUXes/etc. use. Death there is final, but in most, it rarely happens. In some, it takes a player's consent to have their character killed. Even in others that are not consent-based, death is not taken lightly, and generally happens only after a protracted story.

Perhaps some might call this not true permadeath. What is death if it is never faced? But then, I would ask that you think about your favorite movie or novel. Do those characters have a realistic chance of death? Mostly not. But do they act like they do? Absolutely.

And that's my preferred style of RP.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:15 AM   #83
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Zhiroc View Post
I thought I'd throw out a different kind of permadeath, that which many MUSHes/MUXes/etc. use. Death there is final, but in most, it rarely happens. In some, it takes a player's consent to have their character killed. Even in others that are not consent-based, death is not taken lightly, and generally happens only after a protracted story.

Perhaps some might call this not true permadeath. What is death if it is never faced? But then, I would ask that you think about your favorite movie or novel. Do those characters have a realistic chance of death? Mostly not. But do they act like they do? Absolutely.

And that's my preferred style of RP.
Actually, one reason I love George RR Martin is because he's killed off main characters in the middle of his books sometimes, he doesn't favor any one character. So it's all dependent on the person. You have to realize though that as LoD stated above it's a totally different feeling when can die at any turn. When you know you can live forever technically there's issues with staying IC and truly playing the character the way it would be played.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:53 AM   #84
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
When you know you can live forever technically there's issues with staying IC and truly playing the character the way it would be played.
You stubbornly refuse to grasp the fact that this is nothing more than a feature choice. Permadeath is not in and of itself any more conducive to good role play, nor does it inherently have less "issues with staying IC." You refuse to understand that there are extremely well developed game, book, and movie worlds where non-permanent death is an integral part of the design.
  • In a science fiction world where you can save your genetic data to be later restored as a clone, how would someone have "issues staying IC" by knowing they can come back to life? Everyone can come back to life. It is built into the lore of the world.

  • If you were playing a game based on Anne Bishop's Black Jewels trilogy, you would know that if your character was sufficiently powerful, he/she would come back "demon dead" unless the killer was strong enough to burn out your jewels. How would this result in someone not "playing the character the way it would be played." In her books, characters talk about this fact on numerous occasions. Dark jeweled characters laugh in the face of enemies or captors when they know the captors are not strong enough to burn out their jewels.

  • If you were playing a Cylon in a Battlestar Gallactica mud (the re-imagined BSG), you would know that unless you were out of range of a Resurrection Ship, death would have little meaning. In fact, on the TV show, the Cylons often make a big deal about how they don't fear death. For the most part, they accept it casually. One character even kills herself repeatedly because she believes the process of dying and being reborn into a new body is slowly revealing information to her about the origins of the Cylons. And the thing is, she is right. The lack of permadeath for Cylons is CRUCIAL to the overall advancement of the storyline.

Most non-permadeath RP oriented games build the death/rebirth system into their game lore. Thus, people are indeed "playing the character the way it would be played" because that is the nature of life and death in their game world.

Please, for everyone's sake, open your mind to more possible game worlds than the discontinued D&D Dark Sun campaign.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:59 AM   #85
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

I've played perma- and non-perma MUDs, and I never once considered that aspect as a final arbiter of staying in character. You either stay in character or you don't, and if you don't, blaming a feature is sort of fatuous.

Take non-perma MUD A. There are priests there who can raise the dead. That is the world, and a condition of it. You adapt your character concept to it, or you're imposing values the world doesn't possess. All it takes is some serious consideration as to what that world would be LIKE. No longer will "I keel you!" suffice for conflict resolution, at least, not as a stand-alone solution. In a world where death has less meaning, there is a much greater challenge in character-v-character conflict to hit them where it hurts. Wars are different. Instinct sets are different. Death may simply not be the best way to settle things. In fact, if it's what you rely on most heavily, then you're a misfit to that world, and -should- go play something else. You're not up to its challenges. It isn't -worse- by its nature, so long as the world makes consistent internal sense. Hell, if that's the nature of the world, don't take the guy's life. Take his wife. See how that feels in the drama department.

Take perma MUD B. Okay, there's that adrenal thrill that every single thing you do might well spell the end for your character. It's real-world-ish, and it sure makes things tense. Except that one of the things some people play -games- for is so they can situate themselves where something as capricious as real-life death, which quite frequently has no discernible meaning whatsoever, isn't going to ruin your gaming experience, simply because some pinhead mistook your for someone else. Where's the story in that? The building tension and conflict? Your hours of work, which might also be months, gone in a puff of bong-smoke at the hands of some roleplayer who didn't read your descript closely enough. Sure, it's realistic enough, and it can produce some added dimension to drama, absolutely. But an honest participant or observer should acknowledge, it can also be completely senseless, random, meaningless and banal, just like real life deaths. Where's the drama?

I've also seen perma-death fans hedge their bets over time. Rather than losing a great character concept, or even a satisfyingly decent one because of a random quirk of some RPer who just decides today he doesn't like bards, I know perma-deathers that dole out the same concept, if a bit masqueraded, over a parade of characters. The homogenization is inevitable over the course of most RPer's careers, simply because of imaginative limits. Whether that limitation is seen in the course of a single eternal character or is parceled out over a legion of different ones has no genuine impact on RP. RP is RP.

I can play in either, and become completely emotionally invested in either, so long as my character is an organic outflowing of the world he's in. It's really that simple. It's a matter of choice, and both can have the exact same results.

I just get tickled when I see elitism masking as purism. A snert RPer is a snert RPer, alive eternally, or dead a billion times.

A brilliant RPer is a brilliant RPer, whether housed in a single body, or distributed over many. It's that simple.

Give me a purist every time.

A good RPer admits that mostly, the 'best' features of a mud are the ones they like best, and it's utterly subjective.
An elitist pretends they're being interviewed by Microsoft.
Elitists. Yeesh.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:31 AM   #86
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

I certainly wouldn't say that death will make anyone a better rper. I would say that death makes the rp experience better and more immediate for -me-

Further, I don't think anyone else has said that death makes you a better rper.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:19 PM   #87
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Well, on the subject of science fiction MUDs:

The majority of Star Wars MUDs have true permanent death. Many of those do have cloning systems, however, clones are (typically) very rare, and hard/expensive to obtain.

For most people, Death is Death. Now one SW MUD that is unique in this is LotJ: They have a system where if you are in range of a hospital, you have a certain percentage chance of being transported to that hospital and 'saved', unless you are on an opposing clans' planet that you are at war with. Which, actually, is a pretty good system, because it makes sense.

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Old 04-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #88
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
You stubbornly refuse to grasp the fact that this is nothing more than a feature choice.
There is certainly more to a permadeath and non-permadeath environment than it simply being a feature choice. Color or No Color is a feature choice. First Person or Third Person is a feature choice. Warrior or Blademaster is a feature choice. Permadeath and Non-Permadeath are system choices, and they can result in an entirely different experience for the player.

Try to ignore Delerak when arguing these points, but it's not quite as cut and dry as you make it.

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Permadeath is not in and of itself any more conducive to good role play, nor does it inherently have less "issues with staying IC."
Delerak aside, I don't know that very many people are making this claim. RP can exist in both systems, but there's a group of people that want an experience that mimics or attempts to mimic a realistic experience where there is not any kind of afterlife, reincarnation, or ressurection possible. A system where death is final in all senses of the word. This isn't a decision that affects how "good" someone's RP is, but how the system will differ toward the player's actions and general attitude toward facets of the game.

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You refuse to understand that there are extremely well developed game, book, and movie worlds where non-permanent death is an integral part of the design.
Well developed books, games, and movie worlds incorporating non-permanent death systems does not change the fact that the system is different from a permanent death system. It isn't a feature, it's a global condition by which many aspects of one's character development, character decision making process, and IC reaction to encounters are altered.

Let's say that you were walking home one day and someone stopped you and asked you to bet $20 on whether you could beat him in arm wrestling, double or nothing.

Now, let's say that instead of winning $40, they said that they would kill you if you lost.

Would that affect how hard you tried? Would it affect how you approached the match? Your attitude? The pressure you felt as a result of what the outcome would yield? Would it make you consider other courses of action, such as running away, fighting, talking your way out of it, or shouting for help? Would your mood change? How serious would you take each scenario?

If you agree that someone might feel differently about that scenario, then you should be able to appreciate some of the differences and nuances behind a permanent death system versus non-permanent death. The "issues" related to character development, role-playing, and keeping in-character are not related to a person's ability or their level of quality -- but more so a product of the environment.

This doesn't mean that players of non-permanent systems have "issues" with RP, it means that there are issues with achieving the same experience between the two systems.

The real question, in my mind, revolves around consequence. How could two players share the same experience if the consequences to their actions are not the same? If both players were made to run a distance of 100 meters in under 10 seconds, and one player was told if they don't finish they will have to start over and the second is told if they don't finish they will be shot dead -- won't that have a significant impact on almost every emotional and physical facet of the interaction?

Won't the permanent death system incorporate emotional responses that alter the decision making process differently than the non-permanent death system? Won't those responses alter the way people play? The decisions and choices they make? The risks they take? The way they address people? The cowardice or bravery they display? Does the consequence of permanent death not create situations that are unique to the system such as having notions of an ultimate sacrifice or irreplaceable loss?

Non-permanent death systems would have unique properties and conditions as well. How does someone integrate back into a system that has killed them? How do their relationships change? How does their role change from the experience?

They are vastly different and provide vastly different experiences. Don't try to place the two ideas in a linear system with one ahead of the other -- just accept them in the same space and play the one that interests you the most.

-LoD
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:36 PM   #89
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
You stubbornly refuse to grasp the fact that this is nothing more than a feature choice. Permadeath is not in and of itself any more conducive to good role play, nor does it inherently have less "issues with staying IC." You refuse to understand that there are extremely well developed game, book, and movie worlds where non-permanent death is an integral part of the design.
  • In a science fiction world where you can save your genetic data to be later restored as a clone, how would someone have "issues staying IC" by knowing they can come back to life? Everyone can come back to life. It is built into the lore of the world.

  • If you were playing a game based on Anne Bishop's Black Jewels trilogy, you would know that if your character was sufficiently powerful, he/she would come back "demon dead" unless the killer was strong enough to burn out your jewels. How would this result in someone not "playing the character the way it would be played." In her books, characters talk about this fact on numerous occasions. Dark jeweled characters laugh in the face of enemies or captors when they know the captors are not strong enough to burn out their jewels.

  • If you were playing a Cylon in a Battlestar Gallactica mud (the re-imagined BSG), you would know that unless you were out of range of a Resurrection Ship, death would have little meaning. In fact, on the TV show, the Cylons often make a big deal about how they don't fear death. For the most part, they accept it casually. One character even kills herself repeatedly because she believes the process of dying and being reborn into a new body is slowly revealing information to her about the origins of the Cylons. And the thing is, she is right. The lack of permadeath for Cylons is CRUCIAL to the overall advancement of the storyline.

Most non-permadeath RP oriented games build the death/rebirth system into their game lore. Thus, people are indeed "playing the character the way it would be played" because that is the nature of life and death in their game world.

Please, for everyone's sake, open your mind to more possible game worlds than the discontinued D&D Dark Sun campaign.
I don't fail to realize anything Threshold. What you seem to fail to be realizing is this:

All of your points you make are in reference to books. While this is indeed a reputable comparison in terms of RPI muds which do play and feel like you're in a novel sometimes, it doesn't grasp the full experience of having to deal with a permanent death on a character. I agree that it is a feature choice, but it's not JUST a feature choice. It's a totally different experience, it's a totally different ballgame and to say that it doesn't improve somebodys ability to stay in-character while on the mud is just ignorant of the RPI system.

What permanent death does, for most people, if not all of the players is it makes you think differently about your character. It makes the experience more real.

If I login to a mud, any mud where death simply has no meaning, it detracts completely from being able to make decisions with a character. Decisions, while it doesn't seem like a big topic, matters a lot on an RPI mud where death is constantly in the back of your mind. It's just a totally different experience, and it further reinforces your roleplay. Even if a MUD has a setting where there is "reincarnation" you're getting into the world of either High Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or another genre that doesn't fit well with RPI muds for the most part. Can it be done? Probably, but all of the RPI's I know are low fantasy muds.

At the same time you have to realize that even if an RPI mud did this and permadeath wasn't as permanent, because of one of your examples you listed, the experience would still be different because of the 18 other features that go into an RPI. Everything connects to help make the mud feel more real and intense, whereas on most other muds this is not true.

The biggest example I can think of is dialogue. A lot of muds focus on dialogue as the main function of roleplaying, this is simply elementary in my opinion. While dialogue is very important to a certain extent, it shouldn't be the one thing that forces your plots, your storylines, or your characters forward. I've played mute characters and they've had just as much depth and personality as my characters that could engage in dialogue.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:56 PM   #90
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
I've played perma- and non-perma MUDs, and I never once considered that aspect as a final arbiter of staying in character. You either stay in character or you don't, and if you don't, blaming a feature is sort of fatuous.
It doesn't stop you from staying in-character I totally agree. It aids and helps you to stay in-character in a different manner. A different fashion, it totally remodels your thinking pattern when you're roleplaying a character.
The argument comes down to good roleplaying, which in my opinion encompasses a lot more then just "stay in-character guys". There are personalities, habits, the way your character walks, talks, eats, smiles, all tie into it. The thing that permadeath does is makes you change your decisions completely and makes you roleplay more realistically, rather then roleplaying unrealistically.

An example would be, let's say you have a character with certain traits. One trait of the character is that they don't believe in running away in a fight. On a permdeath mud will you flee if you're about to die or will you stay and die and play out the character even if you know you're going to die? The decision is much easier to make on a non-permdeath mud because you'll simply come back to life. On a permdeath mud it forces you to make a much harder decision and if you make the right decision to stay and die, you've become a much better roleplayer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
Take non-perma MUD A. There are priests there who can raise the dead. That is the world, and a condition of it. You adapt your character concept to it, or you're imposing values the world doesn't possess. All it takes is some serious consideration as to what that world would be LIKE. No longer will "I keel you!" suffice for conflict resolution, at least, not as a stand-alone solution. In a world where death has less meaning, there is a much greater challenge in character-v-character conflict to hit them where it hurts. Wars are different. Instinct sets are different. Death may simply not be the best way to settle things. In fact, if it's what you rely on most heavily, then you're a misfit to that world, and -should- go play something else. You're not up to its challenges. It isn't -worse- by its nature, so long as the world makes consistent internal sense. Hell, if that's the nature of the world, don't take the guy's life. Take his wife. See how that feels in the drama department.

Take perma MUD B. Okay, there's that adrenal thrill that every single thing you do might well spell the end for your character. It's real-world-ish, and it sure makes things tense. Except that one of the things some people play -games- for is so they can situate themselves where something as capricious as real-life death, which quite frequently has no discernible meaning whatsoever, isn't going to ruin your gaming experience, simply because some pinhead mistook your for someone else. Where's the story in that? The building tension and conflict? Your hours of work, which might also be months, gone in a puff of bong-smoke at the hands of some roleplayer who didn't read your descript closely enough. Sure, it's realistic enough, and it can produce some added dimension to drama, absolutely. But an honest participant or observer should acknowledge, it can also be completely senseless, random, meaningless and banal, just like real life deaths. Where's the drama?
I totally agree with your first point. It's a totally different experience, but at the same time it's an unrealistic setting, therefore the core elements of roleplaying get hurt in that environment.

As to your second point, the drama exists everywhere. If you don't think death is dramatic that's fine, but to say that dramatic scenes don't exist is ridiculous. Go read Arms rp logs, they have plenty of drama.

Quote:
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I've also seen perma-death fans hedge their bets over time. Rather than losing a great character concept, or even a satisfyingly decent one because of a random quirk of some RPer who just decides today he doesn't like bards, I know perma-deathers that dole out the same concept, if a bit masqueraded, over a parade of characters. The homogenization is inevitable over the course of most RPer's careers, simply because of imaginative limits. Whether that limitation is seen in the course of a single eternal character or is parceled out over a legion of different ones has no genuine impact on RP. RP is RP.
No RP is not RP. It's not the same everywhere, not everybody is going to do it the same. There is no "right" way of course, but there are people out there who have a much different understanding of the aspect of it all, and I have respect the people who do understand these nuances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
I can play in either, and become completely emotionally invested in either, so long as my character is an organic outflowing of the world he's in. It's really that simple. It's a matter of choice, and both can have the exact same results.

I just get tickled when I see elitism masking as purism. A snert RPer is a snert RPer, alive eternally, or dead a billion times.

A brilliant RPer is a brilliant RPer, whether housed in a single body, or distributed over many. It's that simple.

Give me a purist every time.

A good RPer admits that mostly, the 'best' features of a mud are the ones they like best, and it's utterly subjective.
An elitist pretends they're being interviewed by Microsoft.
Elitists. Yeesh.
Well how do you decide if a roleplay is snert or brilliant? What are the qualifications of a " brilliant" roleplayer. I honestly don't think "It's that simple." There's different kinds of people playing all of these muds and everyone is going to have a different outlook on how to roleplay a certain character, the big difference is at RPI muds the act of roleplaying is compared much more to acting in real life then at any other muds I've ever played, which in my opinion puts them ahead of roleplay muds that don't.

Actions speak louder then words, really all I've got to say on the matter.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:00 PM   #91
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoD View Post
There is certainly more to a permadeath and non-permadeath environment than it simply being a feature choice. Color or No Color is a feature choice. First Person or Third Person is a feature choice. Warrior or Blademaster is a feature choice. Permadeath and Non-Permadeath are system choices, and they can result in an entirely different experience for the player.

Try to ignore Delerak when arguing these points, but it's not quite as cut and dry as you make it.
Ignore me? You can try but you'll fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoD View Post
Delerak aside, I don't know that very many people are making this claim. RP can exist in both systems, but there's a group of people that want an experience that mimics or attempts to mimic a realistic experience where there is not any kind of afterlife, reincarnation, or ressurection possible. A system where death is final in all senses of the word. This isn't a decision that affects how "good" someone's RP is, but how the system will differ toward the player's actions and general attitude toward facets of the game.
I never said roleplay can't exist on other muds, simply that muds with permadeath and the (18) other features included will have better roleplaying in general. A mud that only has permadeath and no other RPI featuresets? No I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoD View Post
Well developed books, games, and movie worlds incorporating non-permanent death systems does not change the fact that the system is different from a permanent death system. It isn't a feature, it's a global condition by which many aspects of one's character development, character decision making process, and IC reaction to encounters are altered.
Yes, exactly.. the rest of your post is the same thing I've been saying.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:06 PM   #92
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Hey guys I'm an elitist by the way.

Also: here's a link to a discussion 3 years ago at Mudlab.

[mudlab.org]mudlab.org :: View topic - Dumb question: Just what is a RPI?
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:18 PM   #93
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoD View Post
Well developed books, games, and movie worlds incorporating non-permanent death systems does not change the fact that the system is different from a permanent death system. It isn't a feature, it's a global condition by which many aspects of one's character development, character decision making process, and IC reaction to encounters are altered.
It is still just a feature though. It is a significant feature, but it is still just a feature. There are many other features that have a far more significant impact on the game.

But the point is, the direction you go with this feature choice does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. It does not create more or less "issues staying IC." Perma or non-perma death is not the determining factor.

Quote:
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Let's say that you were walking home one day and someone stopped you and asked you to bet $20 on whether you could beat him in arm wrestling, double or nothing.

Now, let's say that instead of winning $40, they said that they would kill you if you lost.

Would that affect how hard you tried? Would it affect how you approached the match?
I understand the point you are making, but I think this is a somewhat absurd example. I simply would not gamble my life on an arm wrestling match, and I really wouldn't enjoy a game that forced me to do so. I would find that extremely unbelievable, and I think believability is a more important goal than "realism." Realism is usually a poor goal for game design.

Furthermore, it isn't even a good analogy for permadeath games. The fact that you are allowed to create new characters means it really isn't at all like real life. You know at all times that you can simply make a new character. In my experience playing permadeath muds, people end up being friends with the same people a lot of the time even after making a new character. So the permanent "death" is really little more than a speed bump. In no time at all, they are pretty much doing the same thing they were doing before the death, which is not very different from a pendeath game.

If you want to use analogies that compare situations in permadeath games to dying in real life, you would have to make a game that once you die you are never allowed to play it again. Otherwise, it is totally invalid to try and compare permadeath to real life death.

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The real question, in my mind, revolves around consequence. How could two players share the same experience if the consequences to their actions are not the same? If both players were made to run a distance of 100 meters in under 10 seconds, and one player was told if they don't finish they will have to start over and the second is told if they don't finish they will be shot dead -- won't that have a significant impact on almost every emotional and physical facet of the interaction?
But in a permadeath mud, they still just start over. The difference is really not as significant as you claim.

And in some respects, permadeath can make things easier. If you get your character in a really nasty situation, death can be an easy way out. Die, make a new character, and you are totally free of the consequences of your actions. But in a non-permadeath mud, you might have to face the consequences for years to come. So for some RP decisions, the results can be more grave and more serious on a non-permadeath mud. This isn't as cut and dried as some people think it is.

In fact, one could argue that this is actually MORE realistic, since most conflict situations in real life do not boil down to one party murdering the other. If it did, either Hillary or Obama would have been killed months ago. People in real life are generally forced to deal with the consequences of their actions for decades. They cannot just die and start over. But I don't particularly care about this argument, because as I already said, I think realism is usually a bad design goal. Believability and internal consistency are better goals.

But again, this isn't even the point I was arguing (although it is an interesting issue to discuss). I was responding to Delerak's claim that permadeath results in universally better RP, and that non-permadeath muds create "issues staying IC" and people don't "play their characters the way they would be played."

Perma or non-perma death is definitely a significant feature difference. It does indeed create a very different game play experience. It dramatically affects the way you make decisions for your character. Some decisions have to be taken more seriously on a permadeath mud, and some decisions have to be taken more seriously on a non-permadeath mud. But in the end, it is still just another feature, and the direction you go with this feature has no effect (by itself!) on the quality of RP on a game or the potential quality of RP on a game.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:47 PM   #94
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

<Snip. Hmm my scissors are wearing out... - Xerihae>

'Realistic' RP isn't the penultimate. Quite often, it's the most mundane, and all the elements of what makes for RP that you listed are exactly what I'm talking about when I say... RP. Playing a Role. Making a Role and Playing it. Acting. Staying In Character. You may need this broken down a bit. That includes walking, talking, accent/dialect, biases, faults/flaws, fears, favorites, mannerisms, and something usually lacking in RPIs as far as I'm concerned, the ACTOR's ability to move from one playing clique to another if the character dies, rather than rolling a new perma-death character, and playing with the same people you played with in all your other perma-death creatures, because REALISTICALLY, a character isn't -aware- of the actors behind the scenes (and therefore more predisposed to hang out with them). Characters rolled up knowing you're going to be playing with the same clique already have a built-in weird stat: Compatibility With Former Character's Clique, hereafter abbreviated as CWFCC. The stat may not show up on screen, but it sure shows up in the character generation process.

Subsets or parcels of features may be the crutch you personally need to produce your idea of quality roleplay, and for that, I hope some seasoning improves both your skills and your ability to express them clearly, and the ability to see beyond a narrow point of view. All the things you crave in a MUD are fine and dandy, especially if they help you to do that.

Let me tell you why I am certain you lack the basis for elitism. Roleplaying, acting, hell, having a conversation... is -listening- and responding organically. Your listening, reasoning and responsive skills are underformed. Perfect example, when addressing -me-, you still insert an aside to an imaginary audience of followers, when a person paying attention to the thread would realize that here and elsewhere, your posts largely miss the point, and quite a few people disagree with you, constantly pointing out that you don't listen, or when you do, it's to 'interpret' posts to mean something they don't, trip all over yourself defending careless thoughts/words, and to still pound your chest at the end of the day like you've triumphed over those whom would dare deign to gainsay thee.

You may need all the 'realism' you claim exists in your mud in order to seamlessly and effortlessly stay in character. To that, what can I say? Those are your needs. Those are your opinions, and you are of course entitled to them. Not everyone is thus shackled, and shockingly, some of those people who disagree with you might just be doing it for your edification.
What you're not entitled to is the psuedo-authoritative veneer that is so evident in your posts and videos, particularly the ridiculous one where you're munching a banana, and clearly demonstrating a dishonest intent in exposing an obvious bias to prove a dishonest point. That, and you lied to your parents. Admirable.

I'm a purist. RP is RP. That statement doesn't require your interpretation from English to Derelakian. Realism and believability are not always compatible creatures, and perma-death, one single feature, the topic of this thread, is not a necessary feature to promote the kind of RP that 99% of people would find satisfying. In just as many cases where someone could cite that it promoted quality RP, I can list a dozen where it did precisely the opposite. I can -easily- see, based on your responses and your particularly petty and vindictive video, that interacting with you in a perma-death mud, especially where you might be an admin, would be an exercise in trying to confuse someone with REALITY and FACTS.

Respond eleven times to my post, somewhere in your 2-1 responses to every other post on the thread. It's this kind of limelight-groping center-of-attention-deficit disorder behavior that makes me wonder what you think you know about quality INTERactions at all. I made my point, and some get it. Some don't.
There's no need to belabor it.

I wonder, in your busy day of making this whompin' good mud of yours, how it is that your time is spent making videos to support invalid points, writing posts to defend careless and underformed thoughts and words, that you actually have time to make a mud.

Worse than wasting your time, by far, is the fact that I just wasted mine in the hope your viewpoint might expand a millimeter to accept that your subjective qualifications for what is an RPI is precisely that. Your opinion, and chockful of biases that you seem utterly unaware of.

It won't happen again. What you might try and absorb is how much you've hurt your future business in your posting style and content. I cannot think of even one reason at all, based on what I've read, to even -try- your mud, and decades of RP experience demonstrate I'll try damned near -anything-.

I repeat.
Yeesh.

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Old 04-28-2008, 03:11 PM   #95
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

<Snip - Xerihae>

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Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
'Realistic' RP isn't the penultimate. Quite often, it's the most mundane, and all the elements of what makes for RP that you listed are exactly what I'm talking about when I say... RP. Playing a Role. Making a Role and Playing it. Acting. Staying In Character. You may need this broken down a bit. That includes walking, talking, accent/dialect, biases, faults/flaws, fears, favorites, mannerisms, and something usually lacking in RPIs as far as I'm concerned, the ACTOR's ability to move from one playing clique to another if the character dies, rather than rolling a new perma-death character, and playing with the same people you played with in all your other perma-death creatures, because REALISTICALLY, a character isn't -aware- of the actors behind the scenes (and therefore more predisposed to hang out with them). Characters rolled up knowing you're going to be playing with the same clique already have a built-in weird stat: Compatibility With Former Character's Clique, hereafter abbreviated as CWFCC. The stat may not show up on screen, but it sure shows up in the character generation process.
No, I never said it was the penultimate. But to claim that it is mundane is just ignorance. I'm not trying to judge the roleplay at other muds, I speak only from personal preference. The fact that you say mannerisms, fears, flaws/faults, etc, are all LACKING at RPI Muds is the most ignorant statement you can make about an RPI mud. I'm also not even going to go into "cliques" because they don't even really exist on RPI muds, you don't know who you're playing with, because there is no OOC communication. Besides the fact that players will do whatever they want behind the scenes, you can't stop this, but your blatant attack on RPI's in general has no evidence anyway.

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Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
Subsets or parcels of features may be the crutch you personally need to produce your idea of quality roleplay, and for that, I hope some seasoning improves both your skills and your ability to express them clearly, and the ability to see beyond a narrow point of view. All the things you crave in a MUD are fine and dandy, especially if they help you to do that.

Let me tell you why I am certain you lack the basis for elitism. Roleplaying, acting, hell, having a conversation... is -listening- and responding organically. Your listening, reasoning and responsive skills are underformed. Perfect example, when addressing -me-, you still insert an aside to an imaginary audience of followers, when a person paying attention to the thread would realize that here and elsewhere, your posts largely miss the point, and quite a few people disagree with you, constantly pointing out that you don't listen, or when you do, it's to 'interpret' posts to mean something they don't, trip all over yourself defending careless thoughts/words, and to still pound your chest at the end of the day like you've triumphed over those whom would dare deign to gainsay thee.
Actually you don't listen on the internet, you read and comprehend, something I elluded to earlier that you obviously have no ability to do.

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You may need all the 'realism' you claim exists in your mud in order to seamlessly and effortlessly stay in character. To that, what can I say? Those are your needs. Those are your opinions, and you are of course entitled to them. Not everyone is thus shackled, and shockingly, some of those people who disagree with you might just be doing it for your edification.
What you're not entitled to is the psuedo-authoritative veneer that is so evident in your posts and videos, particularly the ridiculous one where you're munching a banana, and clearly demonstrating a dishonest intent in exposing an obvious bias to prove a dishonest point. That, and you lied to your parents. Admirable.
Shackled? I wouldn't say I'm shackled, I play MANY different types of muds. But when it comes to the quality of roleplaying, I cannot deny in my experiences that permadeath and RPI muds have been at the top of the ladder, period. I'm not even going to respond to your personal attack, you're obviously a simple Threshold player having a hissy fit over my videos, if you want to talk man to man you can easily e-mail me or PM me.

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I'm a purist. RP is RP. That statement doesn't require your interpretation from English to Derelakian. Realism and believability are not always compatible creatures, and perma-death, one single feature, the topic of this thread, is not a necessary feature to promote the kind of RP that 99% of people would find satisfying. In just as many cases where someone could cite that it promoted quality RP, I can list a dozen where it did precisely the opposite. I can -easily- see, based on your responses and your particularly petty and vindictive video, that interacting with you in a perma-death mud, especially where you might be an admin, would be an exercise in trying to confuse someone with REALITY and FACTS.
I would disagree that RP is RP. There are many different types of roleplaying, just like their are many different types of acting. It is not so cut and dry as you make it seem, it not so simple. Perhaps for you simplicity is the key to having fun, so be it. I prefer in-depth plots, characters, and an in-depth world.

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Respond eleven times to my post, somewhere in your 2-1 responses to every other post on the thread. It's this kind of limelight-groping center-of-attention-deficit disorder behavior that makes me wonder what you think you know about quality INTERactions at all. I made my point, and some get it. Some don't.
There's no need to belabor it.

I wonder, in your busy day of making this whompin' good mud of yours, how it is that your time is spent making videos to support invalid points, writing posts to defend careless and underformed thoughts and words, that you actually have time to make a mud.

Worse than wasting your time, by far, is the fact that I just wasted mine in the hope your viewpoint might expand a millimeter to accept that your subjective qualifications for what is an RPI is precisely that. Your opinion, and chockful of biases that you seem utterly unaware of.

It won't happen again. What you might try and absorb is how much you've hurt your future business in your posting style and content. I cannot think of even one reason at all, based on what I've read, to even -try- your mud, and decades of RP experience demonstrate I'll try damned near -anything-.

I repeat.
Yeesh.
Again I'm not going to respond to personal attacks. We're both derailing this thread, as it is about permadeath and how that affects MUDs in general, not about RPI's, even though the both are explicitely linked.

Last edited by Xerihae : 04-28-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:51 PM   #96
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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But the point is, the direction you go with this feature choice does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. It does not create more or less "issues staying IC." Perma or non-perma death is not the determining factor.
Yes, it does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. We agree, therefore I don't believe you need to make this point in future replies, at least not to me.

The choice of system can, however, create more "issues staying IC." than the other. If I were to trick someone into following me into a dangerous part of town for the purposes of mugging and/or murder, and the victim was killed during the process, them returning to the game world as the same entity would cause an issue that would not be present within a permanent death system.

The issue would be that the player knows my character to be a liar and a murderer. I knows his character to have been deceived and murdered by my character. Whether the murdered character would be allowed to retain IC knowledge of the event would be up to the particular system in place, but regardless of that decision, the OOC temptation exists for that murdered character to remember the actions and intent of his murderer.

The issue comes into play when those two characters interact again. Does the murdered victim allow themselves to be duped and murdered anew? Or will they invent some excuse or play on some coincidental distrust of the murderer that wasn't present in the first scenario? Whether the player succumbs to his/her bias is irrelevant to the fact that the OOC obstacle exists now where it would not exist in a permanent death situation.

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I understand the point you are making, but I think this is a somewhat absurd example. I simply would not gamble my life on an arm wrestling match, and I really wouldn't enjoy a game that forced me to do so. I would find that extremely unbelievable, and I think believability is a more important goal than "realism." Realism is usually a poor goal for game design.
I agree that we aren't after complete realism, but that doesn't mean certain aspects that mimic reality or contain aspects of reality aren't welcome or desired. And if you understand the point I am trying to make, then I don't see any reason to quibble over the absurdity of the example.

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Furthermore, it isn't even a good analogy for permadeath games. The fact that you are allowed to create new characters means it really isn't at all like real life. You know at all times that you can simply make a new character. In my experience playing permadeath muds, people end up being friends with the same people a lot of the time even after making a new character. So the permanent "death" is really little more than a speed bump. In no time at all, they are pretty much doing the same thing they were doing before the death, which is not very different from a pendeath game.
I would completely disagree with you on this point. It's been my observation in 18 years of playing a permanent death mud that players usually do not end up "doing the same thing they were doing before the death." If this is what you're basing the bulk of your argument upon, which it seems to be, then you might benefit from some more exposure to a game like Armageddon. New characters are -very- new. They aren't simply the same character with a different description and background -- they are often completely different personas with completely different goals. They could have completely different sets of morals, personality traits, likes and dislikes, family relationships, social skills, and values.

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If you want to use analogies that compare situations in permadeath games to dying in real life, you would have to make a game that once you die you are never allowed to play it again. Otherwise, it is totally invalid to try and compare permadeath to real life death.
I wasn't comparing permadeath games to dying in real life, I was comparing the effect upon one's judgments and actions when they are faced with varied level of consequence. Losing $20 is a consequence. Losing your life is a consequence. How someone reacts to both will result in a completely different range of emotions, decisions, and actions on the part of the participant.

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But in a permadeath mud, they still just start over. The difference is really not as significant as you claim.
They don't "just start over" -- it's a completely new person. I had a character for 2 RL years on Armageddon somewhat recently, and during that two years they had collected experiences, knowledge of the game's geography, flora, fauna, and political innerworkings, he had amassed a fair amount of martial knowledge and ability, he had a family with children, and he had made many friends and enemies from which he was able to recall memories, both happy and sad, across many IC years of interaction.

The next character had none of these things. None of these experiences. None of these discoveries. None of this information. None of these memories. It's like claiming that after 2 years spent writing a unique novel, it's not much different from just starting over with blank paper. It's -very- different.

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And in some respects, permadeath can make things easier. If you get your character in a really nasty situation, death can be an easy way out. Die, make a new character, and you are totally free of the consequences of your actions. But in a non-permadeath mud, you might have to face the consequences for years to come. So for some RP decisions, the results can be more grave and more serious on a non-permadeath mud. This isn't as cut and dried as some people think it is.
I agree that there are unique circumstances inherent in a non-permanent death mud; circumstances that might present issues for the character that would not be found in a permanent death mud. And isn't that the whole point that we've been trying to make? There are issues inherent in each system that are both unique and exclusive to that system of game play -- and one of those unique and exclusive features of a permanent death world is that you don't have to deal with the OOC and IC obstacles that come along with a non-permadeath system.

It creates a unique and exclusive situation that is completely different from the experience you receive elsewhere, and that's the entire point people are trying to make. Some people prefer the experience offered within a permadeath system for the many reasons listed in this entire thread.

We don't have to defend whatever game system we enjoy, we just have to agree that there are differences.

-LoD
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:25 PM   #97
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

LoD, good posts. I'm sorry to everyone else on this thread for succumbing to arguing with the lowest common denominator as a 'standard'.

I don't have any issue acknowledging that the systems are different and promote different sorts of RP, and while we might disagree on the significance of the differences, we seem to agree that one feature set over another will not produce 'better' roleplay, but rather different styles.

In a non-perma-death mud, your mugger would of course be a fool to attach his face to a crime. It's inherent in such muds to make sure that those who wish to do such things have the means to do believable dirty deeds, within the context of that world. Perhaps what seems to be missing from your mugging example is support for the RP of the other person. In the scenario you present, basically, the other guy is 'Victim', and one of a string of them, in full knowledge that the player behind the character took time to develop his character, and you're essentially demeaning some of that work by turning him into 'wallet-fodder' like a common mob. Sure, it supports your RP, but it completely negates his, although the scene might make for a good read.

I tend to prefer non-perma-death muds, simply because I've seen enough irresponsible perma-deaths to sate me for a lifetime. Contrary to some experiences, it didn't make me ogle and wow at the complexity and richness of the RP. It made me realize the futility in -some- cases of really pouring time and talent into character development for a character that might not last an hour, and for no better reason than you just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, usually athwart some 'superior' roleplayer, who, in whatever mindset, decided he'd be better off if your character wasn't there. I'm definitely not convinced that simply because you're logged into an RPI that somehow all the players/characters are above treating death in almost cartoonish fashions, so long as it happens to someone else.

This is not a broad slam on RPIs. Some I like. Some are populated with players I'd just as soon not have in my neighborhood. I can almost uniformly admit that those people who are convinced they are the best roleplayers are generally just the loudest. True purists don't need nor want to make a big fuss about how well they RP. They just do it, and let all this OOC nonsense slide over their backs as "NOT RP, SO NOT IMPORTANT". Those folks, I love RPing with, and they can be found in -every- feature set.

Thanks for listening.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:53 PM   #98
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Yes, it does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. We agree, therefore I don't believe you need to make this point in future replies, at least not to me.
Wonderful. This tells me I am discussing an interesting topic with someone who really wants to dive into the issue and rip it apart together with other equally interested folks. I like that.

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The choice of system can, however, create more "issues staying IC." than the other. If I were to trick someone into following me into a dangerous part of town for the purposes of mugging and/or murder, and the victim was killed during the process, them returning to the game world as the same entity would cause an issue that would not be present within a permanent death system.
Actually, given that example, the permadeath mud will create more "issues staying IC." Because what if that person you mugged and killed is so bitter, they make a new character, build themselves up, and then go kill you. That is HUGELY OOC. At least in a non permadeath mud, their efforts to seek out revenge are still 100% IC.


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I agree that we aren't after complete realism, but that doesn't mean certain aspects that mimic reality or contain aspects of reality aren't welcome or desired.
Mina and Disillusionist have already made this point, but I think it is such a good one I am going to reiterate it. I think relying on realism can actually be a pretty bad crutch. I mean how much of a stretch is it to RP things that are similar to reality? Not that hard, honestly. The more different a game world is from our RL reality just ramps up the challenge, RP wise.

Then there is the fact that reality really isn't that much fun as a game. If I want to play something realistic, I already have that game: its called Real Life. The graphics are awesome and the gameplay feature variety is limitless. Oh, and the sex is tons better.


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I wasn't comparing permadeath games to dying in real life, I was comparing the effect upon one's judgments and actions when they are faced with varied level of consequence. Losing $20 is a consequence. Losing your life is a consequence. How someone reacts to both will result in a completely different range of emotions, decisions, and actions on the part of the participant.
But you did indeed compare permadeath to dying in real life. That is explicitly what you did.

And honestly, the possibility of winning $20 (or 2000 gold, or whatever) on a permadeath mud might actually be worth the risk of just dying and remaking a new character. When everyone dies and just starts over, and the point of the game is just roleplay anyway, dying just isn't as big of a deal anymore.

When the penalty is the same across the board, that pretty much normalizes the penalty. As long as permadeath affects everyone equally, the long term impact is not much greater than a penalty death.

Penalties in hockey are far more "severe" than penalties in (American) football. You actually lose a player for a few minutes! But this doesn't mean getting penalties is more "exciting" in hockey. Penalties affect everyone equally, so in the long run the emotional impact is the pretty much the same in either sport.

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It's been my observation in 18 years of playing a permanent death mud that players usually do not end up "doing the same thing they were doing before the death." If this is what you're basing the bulk of your argument upon, which it seems to be, then you might benefit from some more exposure to a game like Armageddon.
I have played Armaggeddon, and I have had hundreds of friends and customers that played Armaggeddon and other AFS muds. My own experience, and the experiences they share with me, all indicate that most people pretty much hang out with the same friends and the same cliques no matter how many times they die. I can understand this, as it does kinda make sense. You make friends and you enjoy RPing with certain people, so you gravitate together. It is incredibly commonplace on *ALL* RP oriented games for people who like each other OOC, or who respect each other's RP ability, to plan new character concepts together, and design interesting plot lines for their characters so they are able to play together. I actually don't think this is a bad thing. But it is indeed evidence that permadeath really isn't quite as permanent as one might think.

(I have snipped a section here that analyzes what types of games gain the most excitment from permadeath. I am going to make a new thread for that.)

Also, as I already noted in a previous post, permadeath can actually make conflict oriented RP situations EASIER and LESS TENSE on a permadeath mud, because you know one of two things will happen:

1) You win the conflict. Hooray. Your enemies are vanquished and destroyed, and can never seek revenge against you. You don't have to watch your back, because they can never again torment you.

2) You lose the conflict. Oh well! Reroll! And your new character will never have to suffer the consequences of your RP decisions, you won't have to worry about those same enemies harboring a grudge, and you will never be "shamed" by society for any heretical, blasphemous, treasonous, deceitful, or other "bad" things you did.

When victory is absolute, both sides of the conflict come out of it with a far greater condition of safety. The long term impact of their RP decisions is much less.

I am not saying permadeath is always less exciting. I am well aware and acknowledge that there are a lot of situations where permadeath makes a situation more exciting and tense. But I am simply raising the point that there are as many situations where the opposite is true.

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The next character had none of these things. None of these experiences. None of these discoveries. None of this information. None of these memories. It's like claiming that after 2 years spent writing a unique novel, it's not much different from just starting over with blank paper. It's -very- different.
But if the point of the game is to build up those experiences, then it really isn't very different at all. Role play experiences are not linear. As long as you are having role play experiences, you are at the pinnacle of "fun" for that type of game. In a hack-n-slash game, a lot of the fun is linear. If you are bored with the low or mid-level gameplay, then dying permanently or starting over would be a HUGE issue. You would have a lot of grinding ahead of you just to get back to the type of fun you actually want to have (high level or "end game" content). But when the main purpose of the game is role playing, you can get right back to that same type of fun immediately upon re-entry into the game world with a new character. Dying and rerolling is not actually a setback.

Also, that novel writing example actually makes my point. Writing the last chapter of one novel is not terribly different from writing the first chapter of a new one. The discipline is the same. The effort is pretty much the same. You still have to concentrate on word craft and story and characters. This makes me think about the Authors Notes that Piers Anthony puts in the back of a lot of his books. In them, he explains that he generally writes multiple books at the same time. He will be working on the first draft of one book, while also working on the final draft of another, or the beginning of one while finishing the end of another. The different stages of writing the books are not that different. They are the same type of work that require the same type of imagination, creativity, and skill.

I don't write novels, but I do make text games, and that is certainly writing. Building a zone is building a zone. The last room of one zone and the first room of another zone are not significantly different as far as the work experience. I still have to put the same effort, the same thought, and the same creativity into both.


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I agree that there are unique circumstances inherent in a non-permanent death mud; circumstances that might present issues for the character that would not be found in a permanent death mud. And isn't that the whole point that we've been trying to make? There are issues inherent in each system that are both unique and exclusive to that system of game play -- and one of those unique and exclusive features of a permanent death world is that you don't have to deal with the OOC and IC obstacles that come along with a non-permadeath system.
But you have just as many different OOC/IC issues to deal with. Neither system has more or less OOC/IC issues.


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We don't have to defend whatever game system we enjoy, we just have to agree that there are differences.
I wish that were true, but there is a certain segment of the population that INSISTS permadeath is inherently superior from a role play perspective. I suspect you do not subscribe to this belief, and I definitely appreciate that. I think it makes it possible for us to discuss some of the more interesting aspects of permadeath and non-permadeath.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:58 PM   #99
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

I give up..
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:06 PM   #100
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
Perhaps what seems to be missing from your mugging example is support for the RP of the other person. In the scenario you present, basically, the other guy is 'Victim', and one of a string of them, in full knowledge that the player behind the character took time to develop his character, and you're essentially demeaning some of that work by turning him into 'wallet-fodder' like a common mob. Sure, it supports your RP, but it completely negates his, although the scene might make for a good read.
There can certainly be an unbalanced agenda when it comes to violent interaction between PC's on a permanent death system. Disappointment is a frequent emotion that accompanies the death of almost any of your characters, especially when that death was at the hands of someone who treads upon your creative work with reckless feet. That said, there are qualities I appreciate behind the random acts of violence that populate these words. I enjoy the lack of security and potentially breakneck pace at which scenes can sometimes fly. I enjoy both the benefits and consequences of a system supporting the immediacy of free will on your environment and its inhabitants.

I played a Vampire (Masquerade) MUSH for about 6 months many years ago, and while I thoroughly enjoyed the RP that I found there -- I didn't happen to meet a known vampire the whole time -- I highly disliked the almost scripted and horribly sluggish encounters where violence and potential death were possible. Imms would descend from on high to mediate between your character and another as they engaged in combat, one action at a time at a crawling pace. While this granted each character an appropriate amount of time to emote and treated both players with respect, the pace and steps felt unnatural to me.

Armageddon's death may very well come swiftly and unexpectedly, with little or no regard for your wishes, but I don't necessarily see that as a complete negative. There can be negative elements associated with the outcome, but the positive experiences generally outweigh the negative -- for me. I'm well aware that others may appreciate other systems that allow them more time, more respect, and more attention to be placed on the scene at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
It made me realize the futility in -some- cases of really pouring time and talent into character development for a character that might not last an hour, and for no better reason than you just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, usually athwart some 'superior' roleplayer, who, in whatever mindset, decided he'd be better off if your character wasn't there. I'm definitely not convinced that simply because you're logged into an RPI that somehow all the players/characters are above treating death in almost cartoonish fashions, so long as it happens to someone else.
The more dialog produced in this thread, the more I become acutely aware that much of this boils down to personal preference and goals. We all play games for different reasons, not just MUDs, but everything. Some people enjoy the thrill of victory, others are content merely to enjoy the company of others, while other still find reward simply in the physical or mental exercise encompassed by the entire process. I enjoy perma-death MUDs because it feels like a raw and dangerous world -- one in which the accomplishments feel harder won, the survival feels harder earned, and the encounters carry an excitement that I've not found in any non-permadeath game to date.

I understand how those qualities would be offensive or frustrating to other players, but it doesn't lessen my personal enjoyment of that system and the many negatives and positives it carries.

Thanks for the nice reply.

-LoD
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