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Old 03-25-2008, 10:42 AM   #81
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Ammit View Post
Are you saying that muds must hide numbers from players to constitute an RPI?
Some numbers, yes. Skill (combat, smithing, writing, etc) and attribute (strength, dexterity, etc.) aptitude would be an example of a hidden number. An argument that the same applies to health or movement would likely be incorrect as substitutes for numbers were not employed at the time the term RPI came into use and at least one RPI might still use numbers to denote total health and movement (haven't played it in over six months so I'm not sure).

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Right, and there are many ways an RPI could do something. Just because RPIs have done it one way, doesn't mean that's the only way, or even the best way.
There are some things that are done one way. That's what differentiated RPIs from other MUDs. Skill-use-based advancement as opposed to stat-based advancement is one such example. Given the vast diversity of features found in MUDs in many different combinations, even within RPIs themselves, it is necessary to determine what specific features were shared by games to which the term was applied. I counted about 16 or 17 originally, though that number is likely larger now given the advancement of several other features over the years. Hence the importance to compare the games then and not now as those shared features of the past were the original parameters of determination.

Quote:
Right, but there are a number of code and policy features an RPI may or may not have.
There are a number of code and policy features which a RPI may or may not have. But there are likewise a core set of features which define a MUD as RPI. A lack of these features would be terminal to such definition however.

Just as a mammal may or may not have a tail, so too may a RPI have or not have some features such as ranged weapons. But just as a mammal has hair and not scales, so too would the existance of some features or the absence of others determine if a MUD were or were not RPI.

The point of this discussion has been to try and determine what those specific features were that were shared by the games that were referred to not only as RP MUDs but as RPI MUDs.

Quote:
Having code to allow someone to bury objects would support and maintain roleplay. However lacking such code doesn't mean you're not an RPI.
Having code to allow a person to mail a letter in-game to someone would support and maintain role-play as well. However, it was not a feature of RPIs at the time the term was derived and was therefore not a feature that formed the characteristics together to which the term RPI referred.

Quote:
Similarly you may have a skill-based advancement system in order to support and assist roleplay, or you might have a level based system designed to do the very same thing. Having one or the other shouldn't disqualify you from being an RPI.
No, it wouldn't disqualify you from being a role-play MUD but it would disqualify you from being a RPI if the features are not that of the like shared by RPI MUDs. The term was not applied to all RP MUDs, just to a small number. Those MUDs were all RP MUDs sharing similar features, one of which was the absence of levels.

The confusion seems to be over the misinterpretation of Role-Play (RP) MUD and Role-Play Intensive (RPI) MUD being interchangeable. While many today use them as such, that's akin to saying Kleenex in reference to a tissue. Kleenex is not the general term for the thin paper object, tissue is. Kleenex is a specific type of tissue. Likewise, RP MUD (general term) and RPI MUD (specific term denoting RP MUDs with a particular feature set) are not the same thing. RPIs are a specific type of RP MUD. All RPIs are Role-Play MUDs but not all Role-Play MUDs are RPI.

Quote:
Its a good place to start, as Delerak did in the first post, but it shouldn't be where you finish. For example Armageddon (a mud generally accepted to be an RPI, right?) encourages newbies to seek out trusted players in e-mail, AIM, MSN, etc to ask questions.

If instead we created a newbie channel where they could ask all trusted players a question (such as "how do I fill up my waterskin?" and had the trusted players answer the question without needing to be in the same physical room, this would be a global channel. Does that mean its no longer an RPI?
Yes, it would mean it's not an RPI. Global player channels are a staple of most MUDs, including many Role-Play MUDs (owing to its existance in numerous original H&S codebases). But RPI is not a general term like RP MUD. It's a specialized term for a type of RP MUD. The MUDs to which the term RPI was first applied all shared the same set of characteristics, one of which was the deliberate removal of global channels for player use.

Quote:
Which shows the limitation of simply documenting what current RPIs do or do not have.
The way to determine the elements of the feature set of RPIs is to look for common characteristics in the past, not the present. For example, if all RPIs today have ranged weapon code, that is not necessarily a feature of RPI as the majority of RPIs did not have such code until the public release of the SoI RPI Engine in December '03 or January '04 (I forget precisely which month it was off-hand). That feature would not have been something that denoted a RPI MUD because the term was in use to describe games without that feature long before ranged weapon code became common in RPIs.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 03-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #82
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Having code to allow a person to mail a letter in-game to someone would support and maintain role-play as well. However, it was not a feature of RPIs at the time the term was derived and was therefore not a feature that formed the characteristics together to which the term RPI referred.

Quote:
No, it wouldn't disqualify you from being a role-play MUD but it would disqualify you from being a RPI if the features are not that of the like shared by RPI MUDs. The term was not applied to all RP MUDs, just to a small number. Those MUDs were all RP MUDs sharing similar features, one of which was the absence of levels.

Using that same logic - that whatever doesn't share the characteristics originally applied to a class of MUDs shouldn't label themselves an RPI - would invalidate an RPI MUD (or indeed essentially any MUD listed on TMS) from calling itself a MUD. They don't share the same set of features that the original games to which the term MUD was applied had. In fact, they share almost none of the same set of features of the original MUD.

If you accept that something can be a MUD even with vastly different features from what was originally called a MUD, then I don't see why you wouldn't accept that something can be an RPI even with different features than the original MUDs to which the RPI label was applied.

Language and its meaning evolves.

--matt
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:55 AM   #83
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
Using that same logic - that whatever doesn't share the characteristics originally applied to a class of MUDs shouldn't label themselves an RPI - would invalidate an RPI MUD (or indeed essentially any MUD listed on TMS) from calling itself a MUD. They don't share the same set of features that the original games to which the term MUD was applied had. In fact, they share almost none of the same set of features of the original MUD.
I've always said MUD was a horrible term anyway. Every now and then I've jokingly used the term MUG in its place. However, the term MUD is an accepted term for text-based gaming and can even be used beyond. the basic characteristics of what is considered a MUD are equally vague but there are some basic shared features between all the games that call themself a MUD. However, there are also clear differences between the context in which the terms MUD and other terms like MUSH are used even though both are text-based games. So too with RP MUDs and RPI. Why do these terms come into use? To differentiate types of games.

Quote:
If you accept that something can be a MUD even with vastly different features from what was originally called a MUD, then I don't see why you wouldn't accept that something can be an RPI even with different features than the original MUDs to which the RPI label was applied.
RPI MUDs still possess that same basic core of features no matter how far or how little they've changed. Just as a basic set of core features for which the term MUD applies (a rather slim set), so too did a core set exist for identifying RPI.

The problem is that the term didn't evolve into use so much as it was simply ignored and used either out of ignorance or deliberate deceit. Language may evolve but we're talking more than language. We're talking taxonomy.

Quote:
Language and its meaning evolves.
I'm not disputing that. But formal language dictates most serious study and research in order to reduce confusion over the chaotic changes of language. Standardized terms based on undisputed commonalities and examples are the key to forming functional definitions. As you said, language evolves but even so, local and temporary or short-term changes rarely find their way into standard use. Even when they do, its even less common for them to find themselves into use in scientific use.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:44 AM   #84
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
It's an issue because the muds that created the acronym are the actual RPI muds. The other muds using the acronym are not. It's the same sense that DIKU created the diku code, so they can justify what is diku if someone else is using those set of features that the DIKU team created specifically, or by using the actual code. So, yes, RPI players are upset when other muds try to use the term and we try the mud, and it's joke. In that analogy of a sense anyway.
DIKU stands for Datalogisk Institut KÝbenhavns Universitet. If another group of students at this same facility had created a codebase, it would have been a misleading term that could cause confusion. Because there wasn't, it doesn't. You say "DIKU-based MUD" and everyone knows what you're talking about.

RPI is a completely different kettle of fish. This, according to you and players of "RPI's", stands for RolePlay Intensive. This is a phrase which could, and does, mean something in normal english usage. A MUD that doesn't fit your criteria could still be roleplay intensive regardless of whether you agree with the features of that game. Claiming that these other games can't use RPI when it is for all intents and purposes a normal, acceptable acronym because a bunch of people think it should only apply to games with a certain set of features is like saying I've decided other MUDs can't use the acronym RPE (RolePlay Enforced) any more because in mine and my mates game we enforce RP by having one staff member per player follow them around enforcing their RP, and the code watches to make sure you're RP-ing, so other games claiming to be RP-Enforced are inferior.

If the initial three games mentioned as "RPI's" want to have their own special acronym to signify a certain set of features, as has already been mentioned they need to come up with something a bit less generic. Just because something is in common usage doesn't make it right.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:43 AM   #85
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Xerihae View Post
DIKU stands for Datalogisk Institut KÝbenhavns Universitet. If another group of students at this same facility had created a codebase, it would have been a misleading term that could cause confusion. Because there wasn't, it doesn't. You say "DIKU-based MUD" and everyone knows what you're talking about.

RPI is a completely different kettle of fish. This, according to you and players of "RPI's", stands for RolePlay Intensive. This is a phrase which could, and does, mean something in normal english usage. A MUD that doesn't fit your criteria could still be roleplay intensive regardless of whether you agree with the features of that game. Claiming that these other games can't use RPI when it is for all intents and purposes a normal, acceptable acronym because a bunch of people think it should only apply to games with a certain set of features is like saying I've decided other MUDs can't use the acronym RPE (RolePlay Enforced) any more because in mine and my mates game we enforce RP by having one staff member per player follow them around enforcing their RP, and the code watches to make sure you're RP-ing, so other games claiming to be RP-Enforced are inferior.

If the initial three games mentioned as "RPI's" want to have their own special acronym to signify a certain set of features, as has already been mentioned they need to come up with something a bit less generic. Just because something is in common usage doesn't make it right.
(applause)

Exactly!

It's also worth pointing out that some of the other previously cited "counter-examples" are actually nothing of the sort. "MUD" is a perfectly good term, given that it doesn't stand for "Multi-User Dungeon" any more, it stands for "Multi-User Domain". And both "Hack & Slash" and "PK" are actually quite reasonable phrases to use to describe what they describe: PK means "killing characters controlled by players rather than by the computer" - "player-killing" is a reasonable and unambiguous abbreviation for that (unless you think we need to distinguish it from systems where the actual human players are killed in real life while playing).

However, "RPI" here is being used in a sense that is different from what one normally means by the phrase "role-play intensive", and the phrase "role-play intensive" could be (and is) used in a far wider context. If you actually say out loud "no, just because a MUD is role-play intensive doesn't mean it's Role-Play Intensive" you can see quite how inapparopriate the term is.

Again, I've nothing at all against RPIs, but the choice of "RPI" as a term to describe them was simply wrong. The fact that people who play "RPI" MUDs were the ones who coined the term doesn't make it any less wrong.

Put it this way: if they'd decided to call them "Armageddon-like" MUDs, would we even be having this discussion?

(sits back and waits for prof1515 to say "We're not talking about role-play intensive MUDs, we're talking about Role-Play Intensive MUDs!" as if that actually meant something...)
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:50 PM   #86
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
RPI MUDs still possess that same basic core of features no matter how far or how little they've changed. Just as a basic set of core features for which the term MUD applies (a rather slim set), so too did a core set exist for identifying RPI.
That's only true if one accepts your definition of an RPI MUD.

--matt
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:46 AM   #87
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by the_logos View Post
That's only true if one accepts your definition of an RPI MUD.

--matt
If one only looks back at the three threads on RPI and the posts by Prof1515 it is clear that his singular goal is for everyone to accept his definition regardless of argument otherwise.

Once he understands that many do not and will not accept this (his) definition, perhaps the insanity will end and an more reasonable discussion will ensue from what Delerak originally begain as a round table about what everyone considered an RPI.

Let's face it, the three threads have gone into circles of the same argument. RPI is simply a poor and ambiquous term for a few MUDs to demand appropriation of said term.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:19 AM   #88
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
If one only looks back at the three threads on RPI and the posts by Prof1515 it is clear that his singular goal is for everyone to accept his definition regardless of argument otherwise.

Once he understands that many do not and will not accept this (his) definition, perhaps the insanity will end and an more reasonable discussion will ensue from what Delerak originally begain as a round table about what everyone considered an RPI.

Let's face it, the three threads have gone into circles of the same argument. RPI is simply a poor and ambiquous term for a few MUDs to demand appropriation of said term.
That in mind also, has anyone from the inital triumvirate of muds stepped forward to put in an opinon on the term?

Truth be told these days following so much mis-representation, bickering and general anti-rpi idiots, pro-rpi snobs.. very few players actually care about the term or distinguish a mud by it.


Mud adminstrators may get up in arms about this being called that and what things are classified as, who breaches what liscence.. but the players.. just like to play
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:36 PM   #89
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by newbie View Post
That in mind also, has anyone from the inital triumvirate of muds stepped forward to put in an opinon on the term?
A point made a couple of times I believe and a good point at that. It seems odd that someone would speak like they are the voice of the gang at RPIMUD, yet none of the originals have even commented.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:41 PM   #90
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
A point made a couple of times I believe and a good point at that. It seems odd that someone would speak like they are the voice of the gang at RPIMUD, yet none of the originals have even commented.
Just a guess here, but possible that the admins don't chime in because the point of all this isn't to appease the admins of these games. It's to help players identify games that match their playing criteria. RPI, which could just as well stand for Really Peculiar Incense as anything else, was considered for years BY PLAYERS OF THOSE GAMES as a catch-all to identify those games. Notice the all caps on the "by players of those games." Notice it doesn't say "by game admins." This is intentional. Just as RPI stands for Rippling Pectorals International.

You see, it really doesn't matter what the letters of RPI "stands for." It matters what the term has come to mean over the years, for people wanting to play a certain type of game. YOU can change what it means to yourself, as much as you'd like. But when I and dozens of other people who have played this particular type of game, are in the market for a similar type of game, with similar criteria, WE will be looking specifically for that similar criteria. And we will be calling it RPI. And if we see an advertisement for a game that claims it's an RPI, and we go to the website, and don't see that it's got that criteria, and then we actually attempt to play the game (which most of us wouldn't do, if the info wasn't on the website, because THAT is one of the criteria too), and see that it isn't permadeath, or that it is pay to play, or that it has a HUGE "verblist" but no emote system, then we will be very disappointed and know that we were deceived - whether intentionally or not.

Because as you all know,

RPI stands for Remove Paper Insert.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:06 PM   #91
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

I believe that the only goal is to be able to find a new rpi mud that's going to be what an rpi player is expecting. I hate wasting my time on games with tons of chatter about nothing on a million global chanels, no character descriptions and no death. I'm sure that those games are lovely. But I don't want to play them. So, all of you who object to the term RPI just tell me how I will know when a new mud opens whether or not it's a waste of my time. What are the muds I'm looking for called?
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:50 PM   #92
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
I believe that the only goal is to be able to find a new rpi mud that's going to be what an rpi player is expecting. I hate wasting my time on games with tons of chatter about nothing on a million global chanels, no character descriptions and no death. I'm sure that those games are lovely. But I don't want to play them. So, all of you who object to the term RPI just tell me how I will know when a new mud opens whether or not it's a waste of my time. What are the muds I'm looking for called?
Same way you do for any MUD and the real purpose of TMS. To find the muds you like via a search engine, reviews, and rankings, and descriptions. If all you like is massive emote systems, perhaps you seek a MUSH? If you hate channels in any form than perhaps you seek a solo game. The reason for the search engine on Mud Sites is to help you with that.

The argument here with most people is that RPI is not a viable search at this time. It would be like putting a search engine for games that have a paid Administrator, but not a paid staff. Just a tad redundant.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:38 AM   #93
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

What I'm seeking is pretty much what was outlined in the first post deliniating what an RPI is. That's why we're using the acronym. Not to twist anyone's shorts, but so everyone can find or avoid them with complete ease.
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:26 PM   #94
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
What I'm seeking is pretty much what was outlined in the first post deliniating what an RPI is. That's why we're using the acronym. Not to twist anyone's shorts, but so everyone can find or avoid them with complete ease.
Quoted For Truth. It's as simple as this people.
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:55 PM   #95
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Quoted For Truth. It's as simple as this people.
Then come up with an acronym that uses specific, unique identifying terms rather than generic words that have their own meaning. It isn't that hard, and tons of people have been suggesting it to you folks for years. It would solve all your problems if this is the TRUE reason you want an identifying name like RPI. Until then, stop crying that you can't lay claim to a generic set of words so you can find the exact type of MUD you want without putting forth a little effort like everyone else.

Oh, and while you're at it, drop the superior elitism. RPIs have their own absurdities and arbitrary design choices - just like any game. The RP is no better on an RPI than on many other MUSHs or RP enforced games out there. It is just different.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:07 PM   #96
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Threshold, stop hating on RPIs. Really; it's childish and unbecoming of a mud admin. Your game isn't an RPI. The people who have already grown accustomed to the term RPI, to describe an RPI, are happy to continue using the term RPI. You don't like it. You have made your opinion clear. So, don't call them RPIs if it twists your knickers so badly. Call them...oh..here's one:

Games That Have Permadeath, Roleplay Enforced, Free To Play, Skill-Based, Levelless, No-Global-Channel, Emote System But Not MUSH, Roleplaying Text-Based MUDs.

You can shorten it to GTHPREFTPSBLNGCESBNMRTB MUDs, the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:45 PM   #97
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Theshold changed his avatar..

Anyway Jazuela pretty much summed up my thoughts about it. The acronym has been used for so long by us superior individuals that we will continue to use it. And we will continue to deem other mushes and muds that do not fit our criteria as inferior. For it is quite simply the truth.

Yes we are elite, and we are proud of it. I have an aquiline nose.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:08 PM   #98
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.
NOTE: "You" is used in this post as a catch-all term for players who use the term RPI to refer to three specific games or a subset that conforms to a set feature list.

You can continue to call them that if you wish. My only issue, and that of others who have replied here, is the derogatry way you sometimes treat other MUDs that advertise themselves as RPI. If they're trying to cash in/steal players from your games then that's different, but if someone calls their game an RPI because they have intensive roleplay then there is no reason for you or others to get all uppity and trash those games.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:11 PM   #99
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Xerihae View Post
NOTE: "You" is used in this post as a catch-all term for players who use the term RPI to refer to three specific games or a subset that conforms to a set feature list.

You can continue to call them that if you wish. My only issue, and that of others who have replied here, is the derogatry way you sometimes treat other MUDs that advertise themselves as RPI. If they're trying to cash in/steal players from your games then that's different, but if someone calls their game an RPI because they have intensive roleplay then there is no reason for you or others to get all uppity and trash those games.
Sure there is reason. We coined the damn phrase RPI. What makes an RPI MUD intensive are the set of "intensive" features such as perm death, no levels, no global ooc channels, *goes to check his first post*. Anyway the list goes on, you can go read it if you like. It's Roleplay Intensive not Roleplay Enforced, because it has a set of features that are intense features, and when muds who do not have these intense features use the acronym, it is demeaning to us who may want to try other RPI muds and yet see a stock ROM/CIRCLE/DIKU or whatever that doesn't even half 2-3 of the features on the list I described earlier.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:17 PM   #100
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
Threshold, stop hating on RPIs. Really; it's childish and unbecoming of a mud admin. Your game isn't an RPI. The people who have already grown accustomed to the term RPI, to describe an RPI, are happy to continue using the term RPI. You don't like it.
Pretty much everyone who doesn't play RPIs thinks it is a bad term, and even some people who play RPIs think it is a bad term. The fact that some people like it doesn't really make a difference. It is a bad choice of term. It is not accurate. It is incredibly vague and generic.

The only "hating" I am doing is on the superior attitude that drips from the posts of so many RPI fanatics. I am not hating on any RPIs. I think many of them are fine games. I have many customers who also play RPIs (some of them admins on RPIs) and I would not even begin to disparage their work or the way they find entertainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
You can shorten it to GTHPREFTPSBLNGCESBNMRTB MUDs, the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.
Or how about one of the countless reasonable suggestions that have been made? Like ARP (Armaggedon style RP). That is very specific and cuts right to the core of the matter. Or AHRP (Armagged/Harshlands style RP). If what you really care about is accurately labelling MUDs with a very specific set of rules, then use a more accurate and less generic term. It really isn't that hard. Alternatively, stop complaining when other people call their muds Role Play Intensive or RPI.

Take your pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Theshold changed his avatar..
Yeah, I have used the other one for far too long. I hope you like it. It is a picture of a trulloc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
And we will continue to deem other mushes and muds that do not fit our criteria as inferior. For it is quite simply the truth.

Yes we are elite, and we are proud of it.
*chuckle*
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