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Old 04-01-2008, 07:31 AM   #121
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I do believe there is already an option to dictate whether a game has permadeath or not. I seriously wouldn't think it hard to find those games just by searching for permadeath.

I took five minutes to find your three muds that have permadeath. Here they are:

6 Dragons
Archaic Journey
SoulMUD: Age of Dogma

Shouldn't take long to try these three out!

(hint: My guess is that there are a lot more than three muds with permadeath. I think if it is such an important traight they ought to have it in their descripts)

And of course all three have detailed character creation, no names, no globals, persistent immersive environment, skill based, apps required, right? And when they say permadeath they mean once your pc dies they're gone? Because apparently some people feel permadeath too is a fluid term.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:14 AM   #122
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
And yet, a very loud minority of the forum wants it changed. The vast majority doesn't think it's important enough to voice an opinion, and a very loud minority is happy with the status quo.
Really? Can you point us to evidence of this vast majority you speak of, or are you just hand-waving? I can just as easily, and just as without any evidence whatsoever, speculate that the vast majority thinks the current definition of RPI is silly, though I suspect that the vast majority of users if, when asked what features make up an RPI, would come up with a list that bears little relationship to the one Delerak posted or, indeed, to other randomly-asked people's list of RPI features.

--matt
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:17 PM   #123
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Originally Posted by Jazuela
And yet, a very loud minority of the forum wants it changed. The vast majority doesn't think it's important enough to voice an opinion, and a very loud minority is happy with the status quo.

Responded to by Logos
Really? Can you point us to evidence of this vast majority you speak of, or are you just hand-waving? I can just as easily, and just as without any evidence whatsoever, speculate that the vast majority thinks the current definition of RPI is silly, though I suspect that the vast majority of users if, when asked what features make up an RPI, would come up with a list that bears little relationship to the one Delerak posted or, indeed, to other randomly-asked people's list of RPI features.

I can easily point to evidence. Check out the membership list of the forum. Check on how many registered users exist on it. Now compare that with the subset of users who "think it's important enough to voice an opinion," and you will find that the vast majority of the forum is not part of that subset.

It's simple math. Out of all the people who are registered on this forum, only a small minority thought it was important enough to voice an opinion one way or another. The rest of the membership might very well have an opinion on the subject, but didn't feel any particular need to express that opinion on the forum to which they are registered.
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:46 PM   #124
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
I can easily point to evidence. Check out the membership list of the forum. Check on how many registered users exist on it. Now compare that with the subset of users who "think it's important enough to voice an opinion," and you will find that the vast majority of the forum is not part of that subset.

It's simple math. Out of all the people who are registered on this forum, only a small minority thought it was important enough to voice an opinion one way or another. The rest of the membership might very well have an opinion on the subject, but didn't feel any particular need to express that opinion on the forum to which they are registered.
Please see this post and remember the membership numbers on here are often used without due consideration of the actual active posters.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics!
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #125
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

From the front page:

Quote:
1) StockMUD:

Tired of MUDs with hundreds of features to try to entertain you? -- Try StockMUD! The original and best. PS: we are also an RPI.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:35 PM   #126
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
Originally Posted by Jazuela
I can easily point to evidence. Check out the membership list of the forum. Check on how many registered users exist on it. Now compare that with the subset of users who "think it's important enough to voice an opinion," and you will find that the vast majority of the forum is not part of that subset.

It's simple math. Out of all the people who are registered on this forum, only a small minority thought it was important enough to voice an opinion one way or another. The rest of the membership might very well have an opinion on the subject, but didn't feel any particular need to express that opinion on the forum to which they are registered.
Exactly. The vast majority don't care enough to register an opinion one way or another. That's not an argument against or for the list of attributes that the OP attributes to RPIs.

In other words, it really IS just a handful of people who are trying to impose some arbitrary definition of RPI on Topmudsites. Keep in mind that those of us objecting are not putting forth our own, narrow view of what an RPI is. We're just arguing a dogmatic approach to the definition of a term about which there is clearly no consensus is not the way to go.

--matt
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:41 PM   #127
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
From the front page:



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Funny thing is, there really was (still is) a stock mud on here behind the listing. At one point there were even 4 people playing it

The 'out' counter went up over 400 times, but alas the poor stockmud got no real inbound votes.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:00 PM   #128
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

In other words, it really IS just a handful of people who are trying to impose some arbitrary definition of RPI on Topmudsites.

It is ALSO just a handful of people who are trying to *oppose* some arbitrary definition of RPI. That was my point. Something has actively been a certain way, for over a decade, according to the handful of people who thought it was worth identifying at all. And for over a decade, an almost equal-sized handful of people have wanted to change that, and have not been successful. And everyone else - has been content enough with how things are, for the past decade plus, that they didn't think it was important enough to bother trying to change.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:32 PM   #129
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
It is ALSO just a handful of people who are trying to *oppose* some arbitrary definition of RPI.
Yes, that's right. So in other words, your definition is as accepted as anyone else's.

Quote:
That was my point. Something has actively been a certain way, for over a decade, according to the handful of people who thought it was worth identifying at all.
Well, no, clearly not. RPI certainly never meant anything like this list of rather arbitrary requirements that the OP wrote to me, for instance, and I've been in the MUD world since 1991 or so. In fact, as far as I can tell, there are only a handful of people who ever felt it meant anything like the list presented in the original post.

Quote:
And for over a decade, an almost equal-sized handful of people have wanted to change that, and have not been successful. And everyone else - has been content enough with how things are, for the past decade plus, that they didn't think it was important enough to bother trying to change.
Change what? The mistaken assumption here is that RPI ever meant precisely what you feel it means to everyone else. I think it's pretty clear that's not the case. It never meant that to me, for instance, and I've got no personal stake in the matter one way or another. To me it means exactly what it says: roleplaying intensive. All the Iron Realms games are RPIs as far as I'm concerned, for instance, insofar as compared to the dominant MUDs out there (WoW and the like), they're extremely roleplaying intensive.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned RPI means exactly what it says - roleplaying intensive. Your view of what roleplaying intensive specifically is is free to differ from mine or anyone else's but you're no more right than anyone else is.

--matt

P.S. If you want to make your quoting of others' posts easier to read, enclose quotes in [-quote-] and [-/quote-] tags, removing the four - symbols from them (which are there so that they won't render as the tags themselves in this post. Not a big deal but it does make a post nicer to look at.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:50 PM   #130
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nass View Post
If it's just about permadeath, would it be overly simple to suggest that you simply call them permadeath muds or permadeath roleplaying muds...? You could use PRAM as the acronym...

*ducks*
It's not just about permdeath. Look at the list that was the first post here, and that list is even missing a few.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:34 AM   #131
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogos
In other words, it really IS just a handful of people who are trying to impose some arbitrary definition of RPI on Topmudsites.
It is ALSO just a handful of people who are trying to *oppose* some arbitrary definition of RPI.
But, if we were to judge by the breakdown of opinions in this thread, it would seem that the handful that wants to scrap the term is a lot larger than the handful that wants to keep it.

Perhaps a better question to ask is: suppose you were to ask a large sample of MUDders what they understand by the term "RPI", would the majority answer something along the lines of the first post in this thread, or would the majority simply understand that it is a MUD which is "role-play intensive"? If, as I suspect, the great majority would understand the term to mean something other than what you mean by it, that means that your definition is no longer a viable one now, even if it ever was to begin with.

Last edited by shasarak : 04-03-2008 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:38 AM   #132
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasher View Post
Funny thing is, there really was (still is) a stock mud on here behind the listing. At one point there were even 4 people playing it

The 'out' counter went up over 400 times, but alas the poor stockmud got no real inbound votes.
This whole thing cracked me up And it worked! I had one of my guys say on our forums:

Quote:
1 StockMUD
Tired of MUDs with hundreds of features to try to entertain you? -- Try StockMUD! The original and best. PS: we are also an RPI. 9321 7893

O_O ... <_< ... O.O! WTF?!
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:38 AM   #133
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shasarak View Post
But, if we were to judge by the breakdown of opinions in this thread, it would seem that the handful that wants to scrap the term is a lot larger than the handful that wants to keep it.

Perhaps a better question to ask is: suppose you were to ask a large sample of MUDders what they understand by the term "RPI", would the majority answer someting along the lines of the first post in this thread, or would the majority simply understand that it is a MUD which is "role-play intensive"? If, as I suspect, the great majority would understand the term to mean something other than what you mean by it, that means that your definition is no longer a viable one now, even if it ever was to begin with.
The only reason RPI players are in the minority in this thread is because they don't care/know to come here and post. If you posted on the armageddon/soi/hl/fem/darksun forums and told the players to come register here and voice their opinions our numbers would grow and the majority of people that have the same point of view as the rest of the RPI mud players in this thread would slide to us.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:03 AM   #134
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
The only reason RPI players are in the minority in this thread is because they don't care/know to come here and post. If you posted on the armageddon/soi/hl/fem/darksun forums and told the players to come register here and voice their opinions our numbers would grow and the majority of people that have the same point of view as the rest of the RPI mud players in this thread would slide to us.
And then we'd go and inform everyone who doesn't play those games and it would swing back to us. Can't use that as an argument I'm afraid.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:04 AM   #135
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Xerihae View Post
And then we'd go and inform everyone who doesn't play those games and it would swing back to us. Can't use that as an argument I'm afraid.
The very fact that there are quite obviously less then 1% of all muds being true RPI's, yes I guess you have a point.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:08 AM   #136
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
The only reason RPI players are in the minority in this thread is because they don't care/know to come here and post. If you posted on the armageddon/soi/hl/fem/darksun forums and told the players to come register here and voice their opinions our numbers would grow and the majority of people that have the same point of view as the rest of the RPI mud players in this thread would slide to us.
That's kind of a silly argument. The RPIMUD forums are pretty much dead. I've been there. Even if it were active, it would be akin to telling all the players of Iron Realms, NW, Threshold, and so on to come here and register and become Trolls to further a dead point.

Perhaps you will one day finally accept that the term RPI is and was a poor term. You were not part of the creation of it, you are not in authority to speak on it beyond your own personal opinion of it as we agreed at the beginning of this thread.

I have no problem with you deciding what RPI means to "you" or your friends specifically. I do have a problem with you trying to incorporate your defination as a global definition. I think that is all of our problem. Your definition is not and will not be accepted by others as a global definition.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:16 AM   #137
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
That's kind of a silly argument. The RPIMUD forums are pretty much dead. I've been there. Even if it were active, it would be akin to telling all the players of Iron Realms, NW, Threshold, and so on to come here and register and become Trolls to further a dead point.

Perhaps you will one day finally accept that the term RPI is and was a poor term. You were not part of the creation of it, you are not in authority to speak on it beyond your own personal opinion of it as we agreed at the beginning of this thread.

I have no problem with you deciding what RPI means to "you" or your friends specifically. I do have a problem with you trying to incorporate your defination as a global definition. I think that is all of our problem. Your definition is not and will not be accepted by others as a global definition.
That's because the players stick to their own forums. My point is there is a large playerbase for RPI muds, not nearly as large as normal muds because it's still a fairly new concept and still growing. They are completely different muds with the features they use and most normal MUDDers or Gamers for that matter are not interested in them because they deter from the classical hack n slash that all other muds still hold dear. The fact remains however that RPI players are being disrespected when everyone insists that our use of "RPI" is arrogant, elite, etc, etc. That's just an easy scapegoat and it doesn't matter how much arguing we do back and forth, we're always going to use RPI, and what's worse is here at TMS anyway, all those opposed to RPI are going to oppose it.

We still haven't gotten anywhere.
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:05 PM   #138
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
That's because the players stick to their own forums. My point is there is a large playerbase for RPI muds, not nearly as large as normal muds because it's still a fairly new concept and still growing. They are completely different muds with the features they use and most normal MUDDers or Gamers for that matter are not interested in them because they deter from the classical hack n slash that all other muds still hold dear. The fact remains however that RPI players are being disrespected when everyone insists that our use of "RPI" is arrogant, elite, etc, etc. That's just an easy scapegoat and it doesn't matter how much arguing we do back and forth, we're always going to use RPI, and what's worse is here at TMS anyway, all those opposed to RPI are going to oppose it.

We still haven't gotten anywhere.
I think you always should use RPI if that is what you want to do. Just remember it is your definition of RPI not a global one. On the note of arrogant and elite. I don't have much of a problem with that if it is warranted. I hate to say it, but calling all other muds hack & slash would be akin to calling your defined RPI's MUSH's which is the direction you sort of go.

Let's face it, if you want paragraph long emotes, a set system of etiquitte to slow down roleplay, a lack of guilds and levels (even though I see no difference between guild levels and skill levels) and very limited combat, aren't you really just a MUSH with Permadeath and PK? And being a MUSH isn't a bad thing, just a different form of roleplay. Maybe call it MUSHI (MUSH Intensive?).
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:33 PM   #139
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I think you always should use RPI if that is what you want to do. Just remember it is your definition of RPI not a global one. On the note of arrogant and elite. I don't have much of a problem with that if it is warranted. I hate to say it, but calling all other muds hack & slash would be akin to calling your defined RPI's MUSH's which is the direction you sort of go.

Let's face it, if you want paragraph long emotes, a set system of etiquitte to slow down roleplay, a lack of guilds and levels (even though I see no difference between guild levels and skill levels) and very limited combat, aren't you really just a MUSH with Permadeath and PK? And being a MUSH isn't a bad thing, just a different form of roleplay. Maybe call it MUSHI (MUSH Intensive?).
You've never played an RPI. They are nothing like MUSHES. They are more like MUDs then mushes.
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:00 PM   #140
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
The only reason RPI players are in the minority in this thread is because they don't care/know to come here and post. If you posted on the armageddon/soi/hl/fem/darksun forums and told the players to come register here and voice their opinions our numbers would grow and the majority of people that have the same point of view as the rest of the RPI mud players in this thread would slide to us.
Now, that would not be very IC of you to do if you did right? in fact, if you happened to do that and got the hordes of said MUDs players in here you would defeat the very MUDs you are trying to champion for :P

Just an observation
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