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Old 04-02-2008, 05:41 PM   #141
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Spoke View Post
Now, that would not be very IC of you to do if you did right? in fact, if you happened to do that and got the hordes of said MUDs players in here you would defeat the very MUDs you are trying to champion for :P

Just an observation
This is true.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:43 PM   #142
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I think you always should use RPI if that is what you want to do.
The problem is that it makes a term which once had more specific meaning nothing more than an alternate term for the generic term MUD.

Why was the term RPI first used? To distinguish a group of games from others (This doesn't constitute elitism, mind you, because that involves a bias of superiority). You had hundreds of MUDs. Some of them were hack-and-slash, others were role-play while others were a combination. While there were scores of new features put into them, most had the same code found on hack-and-slash games. A few of the hack-and-slash games however didn't even have those characteristics.

Of the role-play MUDs, you had a variety of different ones but they all shared one thing in common: they were still using the codes and features found therein that originated for purposes other than role-play be it levels, experience points, death evasion, OOC channels, etc. Some were enforced role-play, some were less stringent about it and settled for "encouraged" rather than "enforced". And yet, amongst the "enforced" group, you had another type of MUD develop. These MUDs didn't just require role-play. They stripped down their code and rebuilt it from the ground up, making it role-play intensive code. Role-play intensive code, that is to say code which was strengthened or emphasized for role-play purposes. This was different than all the other role-play enforced or encouraged MUDs which either rationalized ("when you die, your soul can be reunited with your body with only a small loss of skill ability", etc.) or attempted to play down ("the levels are there but we ignore the levels") the hack-and-slash origins of their features.

Someone coined the term RPI for this philosophy of role-play MUD design. I don't know who and I doubt we'll ever be able to track down the person who did. I will say one thing for them, they understood the English language. They used a term which describes in only three words the origin and purpose of the game design. Sadly, used in a different context the word "intensive" has other meanings and despite this being a text gaming community, language skills aren't all equal. Instead of "intensive" being read as an adjective to code or MUD, people confused it and somehow applied it as an adjective to "role-play" (have to wonder if you said you had a "brick red car" would these same people think the car was made of red bricks?).

At least some MUDs used this misinterpretation to refer therefore to "intense" role-play. Reasoning that their role-play was as intense as any other they began to adopt the term. There may have been other motivations for using the term as well. I know that when I first started role-playing, I found the quality of role-play on the original RPIs to be vastly superior to that I found anywhere else. It's possible that some mistakingly viewed RPI as a quality branding (when quality of something like role-play is a personal, subjective preference and therefore difficult to gauge in such a manner). Thinking this, they adopted the term RPI as a means of feeding off this perception. In any regard, the term began to be used outside the original application.

The problem you have though is that what good is the term any more if it's just become one more synonym for role-play MUD (or even just MUD in general given that there are games who use the term and don't even concern themselves with role-play much)? Sure, RPIs could adopt a new term but what term would be really as descriptive as role-play intensive? Perhaps role-play designed? Role-play intended? (uh oh, same initials)

Role-play Intensive is the perfect adjective to describe the nature of these games and the code, world design, and policies they employ. And even if RPIs did adopt another term, if this term came to be coveted as much as RPI apparently is, what would stop everyone and their grandmother from suddenly calling their games by this new term? It's sad to say it, but there's a distinct lack of ethics in the MUD community. Everyone wants to win over players using whatever tactic they think will work regardless of the accuracy or honesty of how they describe themselves.

For some of us though, we just want to be able to find games with the features we used to be able to find when one said RPI. We don't want to try out dozens of games which call themselves RPI only to find a dozen different combinations of features, none of which constitute the kind of game we're looking for. For others, we want to be able to advertise our games as RPI and not have people come in who have no interest in or desire to learn or adapt to the code and policies that RPIs, in the traditional use of the word, have long employed.

MMO* games are pretty popular right now. What if either game manufacturers misunderstood what that type of game was or deliberately used the term to market their game in order to capitalize on the popularity of the format, regardless of whether or not their game was the same? If you wanted to play one, wouldn't you be frustrated if dozens, if not hundreds, of games advertised themselves as MMO* and when you tried them out you found they were single-play side-scrolling games nothing like what you were looking for?

That's the root of the issue with RPI. The few vocal players and RPI administrators that have posted here are far from the only ones that experience frustration over this topic. They're just the ones that choose to speak up. There are lots more. Some of them are downright social hermits who wouldn't be comfortable posting on a forum. Some are apathetic about taking any action that doesn't involve typing emote first. But I've talked to a lot of them over the years. I've heard them grumble about games they "wasted their time trying" only to find it wasn't what they were looking for. 'Role-play MUD" adequately describes any MUD which features role-play (RPIs included). "Role-play enforced" adequately describes any MUD which has an enforced role-play policy (RPIs included). But RPI means different things to different people. For some, it means the same as "role-play enforced". For others, it means the same as the same as "role-play MUD". But for others, RPI doesn't just mean either of these two things alone. For them, RPI harkens back to that unique combination of features and philosophies of code and world design that sprang from saying, "We want to design our game around role-play, not the code that was created for a different purpose."

That's lost if the term is turned into a generic term for a smorgasbord of MUDs.

But what's really lost if it's used more discriminately? Just one more synonym to describe anything you want?

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:46 PM   #143
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
You've never played an RPI. They are nothing like MUSHES. They are more like MUDs then mushes.
Oh contraire, I have played two MUSHI's and one for an extended time frame. Many players at NW have come from MUSHI's. Many features are in fact very MUSH'like. Mainly the features I spoke about in my previous post. I can certainly detail them if you like, but I think that is redundant.

Having said they are Mushlike, doesn't mean they aren't MUDlike too. But the direction you push with many features gives me the feeling you aim for a MUSH more than a MUD.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:53 PM   #144
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Oh contraire, I have played two MUSHI's and one for an extended time frame. Many players at NW have come from MUSHI's. Many features are in fact very MUSH'like. Mainly the features I spoke about in my previous post. I can certainly detail them if you like, but I think that is redundant.

Having said they are Mushlike, doesn't mean they aren't MUDlike too. But the direction you push with many features gives me the feeling you aim for a MUSH more than a MUD.
The only thing that's similar between a mush and an RPI is the fact that it focuses on roleplaying. Everything else comes from other MUDs.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:08 PM   #145
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
The problem you have though is that what good is the term any more if it's just become one more synonym for role-play MUD (or even just MUD in general given that there are games who use the term and don't even concern themselves with role-play much)? Sure, RPIs could adopt a new term but what term would be really as descriptive as role-play intensive? Perhaps role-play designed? Role-play intended? (uh oh, same initials)
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The feature set you cling to as a requirement for "RPI" status has everything to do with PERSONAL PREFERENCE and very little to do with actual role playing. The term is horrible, it was horrible from the beginning, and it is a bigger issue now because the generic nature of the term has actually become more widespread than the narrow use that the "RPI MUDs" want it reserved for.

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Role-play Intensive is the perfect adjective to describe the nature of these games and the code, world design, and policies they employ.
No, it isn't perfect. If it was perfect, we wouldn't be having this discussion for 900th time. You have arbitrarily chosen a suite of features and decided it is what you like best. Those features are chosen based on the personal preferences of the people who made the "First 3 RPIs." That's it. If you want something closer to a perfect term, use specific terms related to those first three, and call it done.

Once again:

ARP - Armageddon style RP.

There you go. That is far more "perfect" and far more accurate. That is what you are talking about anyway.

Or, if you don't want to do that, then accept that RPI has a broader common meaning and usage now, and you're just going to have to deal with it.

Your choice. But stop harping on RPI being a great and accurate term, because it was never great and never accurate. So few people play RPIs that most people didn't know about it or care for a long time. But as the years went by, the term slowly reached the mainstream and took on a more accurate and general meaning.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:15 PM   #146
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

This whole situation is an example of how in a small, insular group, you can make up vague terms and it doesn't matter since everyone knows what you mean. That's fine. But when you go out into the Big Bad World, it is foolish to expect and demand that everyone adhere to the little personal definitions you have made for an otherwise generic term.

I have a very apt analogy. In my family, we have two cars. They are both green. But if my wife says "which car are we taking?" and I say "the green car", she knows I mean the smaller green car (better gas mileage but less room). Now, that's fine in our family. When someone says "get in the green car, we're going", everyone else knows which car to get into. I believe the reason this term evolved is because the little green car is our secondary car, and during its lifespan we have had 3 different primary cars. So the colors of the primary car has changed, and only recently became green. But the secondary car has always been green... thus, it is always "the green car."

But it would be absolute foolishness and arrogance for us to expect the rest of the whole wide world to understand and accept that "the green car" means "the smaller of two green cars." We chose to use a very vague and generic term, and it works for us. But expecting everyone else to share in this definition is totally inappropriate and illogical. It doesn't matter how long we have been calling the smaller car "the green car" or how well this term works for us.

Furthermore, "the green car" is not a perfect term at all. It is, in fact, a pretty poor term. But it works for us, we use it, and there's nothing wrong with that. It would only start to be wrong if we demanded that everyone else use the term in the same manner.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:51 PM   #147
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
The very fact that there are quite obviously less then 1% of all muds being true RPI's, yes I guess you have a point.
The term for this particular logical fallacy is "No True Scotsman". You're merely defining the term in order to produce your desired outcome-- games that are the style you like to play.

If someone else plays a different kind of MUD which has intense roleplay, and calls it "roleplay-intensive", you merely brush them off as "not a true RPI".
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:57 PM   #148
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
Role-play Intensive is the perfect adjective to describe the nature of these games and the code, world design, and policies they employ. And even if RPIs did adopt another term, if this term came to be coveted as much as RPI apparently is, what would stop everyone and their grandmother from suddenly calling their games by this new term? It's sad to say it, but there's a distinct lack of ethics in the MUD community. Everyone wants to win over players using whatever tactic they think will work regardless of the accuracy or honesty of how they describe themselves.
Except you, yes?

Elsewhere in this thread, you're telling people that MUSHes are not roleplaying-intensive, despite the fact that on many MUSHes it's the only thing they can do. They often have combat 'systems' which are essentially storytelling competitions judged by a neutral arbiter-- each person describes their actions, and the arbiter decides what would be best for the storyline, and what best rewards creativity.

Why is that not "roleplay-intensive"? Their entire codebase is based around it, and from their perspective Armageddon-style code is heavily invested in mechanical, repetitive skill-grinding.

What makes a pure storytelling game like that not "roleplaying intensive"?
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:08 AM   #149
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
The only reason RPI players are in the minority in this thread is because they don't care/know to come here and post. If you posted on the armageddon/soi/hl/fem/darksun forums and told the players to come register here and voice their opinions our numbers would grow and the majority of people that have the same point of view as the rest of the RPI mud players in this thread would slide to us.
And if we posted this discussion on the Diablo II forums and told the players to come register here, the number of players who think any form of roleplaying is a waste of their time would grow. That's kind of a silly argument.

The reason Armageddon-style viewpoints are not in the majority is simply because a relatively small number of people play that style of codebase.

A much larger subset of players play games where roleplaying is expected/mandated, and are generally confused as to why they are decreed to be not "roleplay-intensive", especially when the list of traits (i.e. hard-coded crafting system) allegedly defining such an experience seem rather arbitrary. Why is crafting important, but hard-coded political systems (hierarchy, voting if applicable, power structure, etc.) not mentioned? Why is an unrealistically slow pace of combat so important? Why are day/night descriptions important, but weather-dependent or seasonal descriptions not important?

The only consistent answer I've seen is essentially that this is the feature list you like. Which is fine, but not binding on the community.
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:38 AM   #150
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

ARP - Armageddon style Roleplay? That does not work at all, I don't want my mud being compared to the roleplay that exists on Armageddon. I'd prefer something that relates to the features. RBM - Realism Based Mud or something.
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Old 04-03-2008, 02:17 AM   #151
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

Of all this discussion I can gather a few things:
Derelak and a few others wish to have a term with which to group the type of game of their preference.
These individuals have been using a term (RPI) which now has a meaning that has apparently evolved into something different than originally intended(?).
Some people think their goal is to catalog themselves as better or above other RP(xxx) games or even ARP's.

And more importantly, very little of what is said anymore is new or is beneficial to the discussion.

My question is, would not it be better to wrap up somehow, agree that all you want is a way to group together under a banner and make sure that most people understand what reads in the banner while the rest wants to be left alone when using the RPI char sequence as they understand it? Maybe every 2 weeks or so make a post with the list, or bump the thread that contains the list, or something similar, so that you know people know what you mean ...

Anyway, my last two cents and last ┐contribution? to the thread
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:51 PM   #152
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

They already promote themselves on RPIMUD. Why create a new location for this list. RPIMUD is fine, advertise it like any other mud or make a "looking for players thread" promoting RPIMUD.

I personally think Derelak's suggestion of RBM Realism Based MUD is a better distinction but watch out, soon you will have people saying that RBM muds aren't really RBM muds because they lack hair growth, body growth, sickness, defacation, urination, realistic bleeding, paper cuts, etc.
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:29 PM   #153
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

It seems the terms been coined with less intrest in highlighting those of a similar trait but excluding others.
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:27 PM   #154
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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It seems the terms been coined with less intrest in highlighting those of a similar trait but excluding others.
I'm thinking that is what caused this thread to spiral into destruction.
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Old 04-05-2008, 12:40 AM   #155
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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I'm thinking that is what caused this thread to spiral into destruction.
This thread is thriving on destruction.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:23 AM   #156
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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This thread is thriving on destruction.
That make it a TDI thread?
(thriving destructive intensive...)
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:45 PM   #157
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Mabus View Post
That make it a TDI thread?
(thriving destructive intensive...)
No you cannot use that acronym. You're so elitist you know that? Come on. There is destruction in plenty of other threads that are just as intensive and thriving. Man, how dare you try to use an acronym like that? Other threads may have a different view, you'd better change it to something else.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #158
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
No you cannot use that acronym. You're so elitist you know that? Come on. There is destruction in plenty of other threads that are just as intensive and thriving. Man, how dare you try to use an acronym like that? Other threads may have a different view, you'd better change it to something else.
You are right.

I never should have tried to push my definition on others, even though a small few people would agree with it. I guess TDI is just to generic a term, and could be used to discuss about any thread, even without my approval.

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Old 04-16-2008, 05:12 PM   #159
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
No, it's you that's being obtuse by constantly employing straw man arguments like the ones below....

Quote:
The feature set you cling to as a requirement for "RPI" status has everything to do with PERSONAL PREFERENCE and very little to do with actual role playing.
It's not a personal preference, it's the result of a comparitive analysis of the original games to which the term was applied. I looked at those games, broke down a list of features they shared with one another and features they shared with other games. The resulting feature set was derived from those results.

As for "little to do with actual role playing", the term didn't denote role-playing. Quit bringing up a misinterpretation of the term to attack its accuracy.

Quote:
The term is horrible, it was horrible from the beginning, and it is a bigger issue now because the generic nature of the term has actually become more widespread than the narrow use that the "RPI MUDs" want it reserved for.
It is an issue for that very reason. In its present (ab)use, the value of the term to really describe anything is all but lost. That's why I believe it's important that this issue be addressed.

Quote:
No, it isn't perfect. If it was perfect, we wouldn't be having this discussion for 900th time.
It's perfect for people who a) stop to consider the meaning of the term and how it was applied, b) have the English skills to recognize that "intensive" is not an adjective of "role-play" (if it was it would precede, not follow). I think that most people have the latter but fail to consider the former.

Quote:
You have arbitrarily chosen a suite of features and decided it is what you like best. Those features are chosen based on the personal preferences of the people who made the "First 3 RPIs."
I haven't arbitrarily chosen anything. The term was first used to describe those games. In doing so, that "arbitrarly chosen suite of features" was part of the definition of the term, though those features were never clearly delineated. But those features were present in all three and thus form the basis for the differentiation from other games to which the term applied.

Quote:
ARP - Armageddon style RP.
Armageddon has features (and a lack thereof) that are not found in the other two RPI codebases (or as many as five if you chose to differentiate the FEM, SoI RPI Engine and Argila from the original Harshlands code). The group to which the term RPI applied can be broken down further by saying "Armageddon-type RPI" or "Harshlands-type RPI" and so forth to further denote the specific approaches to the implementation of that feature set they share as well as to denote the variations in other aspects (for example, the original Harshlands code didn't feature ranged weapons or accounts).

Quote:
So few people play RPIs that most people didn't know about it or care for a long time. But as the years went by, the term slowly reached the mainstream and took on a more accurate and general meaning.
Again, it didn't take on a more accurate meaning, it took on a more confused meaning because as it's used now, there are really no commonalities in the games calling themselves "RPI".

That said, a group of players and administrators got together a few weeks back and performed another comparitive analysis of the shared features of RPIs. We put together a list of 18 (though further research on my part revealed one more, or more precisely the absence of an old H&S feature, that had been overlooked). I was going to post them with this message but in looking just now I realize the log is on the computer downstairs so I'll do it next time I post since I have a lot of forum catching up to do and I've been on my ankles too much today already (been busy for the last couple weeks and if the discussion on the visually-impaired is any indicator, there may be some other good topics to read).

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-16-2008, 05:25 PM   #160
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Re: Guidelines for an RPI mud.

OMG, you must be kidding Prof1515? This thread has been done for two weeks. I think you just want to keep it alive for silly reasons.
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