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Old 04-30-2008, 10:31 AM   #21
Jazuela
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Totally and completely agree with Disillusionist. I'll add another bit, just so this doesn't end up a one-line "me too" post (which I abhor).

Our species didn't get to be second-best only to cockroaches by saying, "Oh, hello pretty kittycat, here, take my hand. And my foot. And my ribs, since you're so hungry." We got where we were by fiercely, viciously, savagely smacking that lion over the head with a heavy stick. And if we were lucky, the meat from that "kittycat" wasn't diseased, and our family lived to evolve even more.

Our crops, once we became farmers, didn't grow by our saying "What a lovely stalk of corn you are, and what pretty rutebegas! Grow, lovelies, grow!" We grew crops by killing the plants' natural predators: rabbits, deer, etc. etc. If it weren't for our violence against other animals, those crops would be feeding Fluffy and Bambi, not ourselves.

Even the organic farmer has to put something out to keep the pests from enjoying a meal. Whether it's organic dried blood (to ward off deer, rabbits, and cats, in particular), or planting chrysanthemums to keep insects away (the source of pyrethrum, one of the most common insect repellants for crops on the market), everyone is out for themselves, and will penalize others to get their needs satisfied. Green-freak organic farmers are not exempt from the food chain, whether they want to make it sound prettier or not.

So when we play muds, we get to not only do what we do anyway, but we get to pretend, for a few hours a day, that it is a GOOD thing. That killing stuff is a good thing, that whacking a lion over the head means we are awesome. That slitting the throat of a rich salesman is, perhaps not legal, but not taboo either.

We get to nurture our most primitive instincts for a little while, instead of suppressing them for the greater civilized good. It's also fun to pretend that the kobold you're smacking around is really your boss, or teacher, or stupid big brother, or ex-husband, or personal trainer, or the nasty neighbor next door. Or even the neighbor's annoying yapping snapping little lap-dog.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:50 PM   #22
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Great posts Disillusionist and Jazuela.

It reminds me of a line from Dennis Leary talking about vegetarians: "Oh they'll eat the meat... Meat tastes like murder and murder tastes f*ckin' great."
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:20 AM   #23
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

But it goes further than that. This supposed "civilized greater good" is a hopelessly flawed dream. Civilization cages us and it dictates to us how we should live.. how can we possibly be happy? The control is a lot tighter than simply having people respect each other. Civilization seizes us as soon as we are old enough to understand what they are saying, they MAKE us go to school, they EXPECT us to live some perfect dream life, graduating, marrying, working 40 hours a week for 40 years. You make the money, you pay the taxes, and you let people tell you how to spend, and the world makes you feel like an insect. The government is afraid of people thinking of themselves, that's why they hate these games. At the core of man, there really is a predator there, something wild. None of us are 100% domesticated. Everybody has a breaking point. That's why there is so much murder. Playing these games releases the tension that "civilization" is really causing! Through gaming I have made many friends, that alone keeps me from going postal. But they will keep blaming everything that looks like a demon as a cause in the face of an overwhelming giant of opposing evidence. In the meantime, keep paying those taxes and maintaining those lonely non-functional relationships with your teachers and co-workers, while the paid scientists try to prove what the government (a.k.a. "the man" - the real monster here) thinks is best for us. I expect the mothers will get their ban eventually, since Hillary Clinton already spoke out about the gaming after the last GTA game.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:40 AM   #24
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

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Originally Posted by Davairus View Post
But it goes further than that.
Which "the govornment" are you referring to? Last time I checked, there were over 190 of 'em out there.

Presumably, you mean the one that will provide for you education, security, health care, a stable infastructure, and more rights and personal freedoms (Including the freedom to speak out in such a manner without being prosecuted as a traitor) than any other "the govornment" there is.

I suspect that you have yet to travel abroad and develop a sense of what the majority of this world is really like. No doubt, such experiences might cause you to appreciate that maybe The Man isn't such a villian afterall.

-obit
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:01 AM   #25
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Quote:
Which "the govornment" are you referring to? Last time I checked, there were over 190 of 'em out there.

Presumably, you mean the one that will provide for you education, security, health care, a stable infastructure, and more rights and personal freedoms (Including the freedom to speak out in such a manner without being prosecuted as a traitor) than any other "the govornment" there is.
Wow, I didn't know he's French.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:24 PM   #26
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

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Its still not the same thing and the means to "see" where something goes is very artificial. One can get used to it, but its not how we interact with the real world, for the most part. There is, rather obviously, a huge difference between, "is the slightly blue something moving behind that bush a shadow I shouldn't waste ammo on, or is my opponent hiding behind it? Ah, a flash of silver, has to be my opponent!", and what you are forced to do in a text came, which amounts to, "A nearby bush moved." Without explicitly knowing the color of the opponent, or a lot of other things, the game can't "really" tell you anything that is at all useful in text, where a visual look can tell you instantly what is going on, or even let you move around a bit, so you have a better view, without your opponent necessarily knowing what you are attempting. Hard to manage in a CG game too, but you have a better idea what might "trigger" that in such a game, since you can truly tell where you are, and where you are going, related to the bush.
It's true that you can't directly emulate the visual and spacial aspects of a graphical combat game in text; text simply cannot compress that amount of information into a sufficiently compact package. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that MUD combat cannot generate real-time suspense, and cannot require you to make rapid tactical decisions.

An awful lot of MUD combat systems are rather boring, bordering on automated, but there's no reason why they necessarily have to be.
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:41 PM   #27
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Kudos for the thought-provoking posts!

I see what all of you are saying... That bashing is inherent in our genes and we should let it out through games.

I understand and agree with that.

I'm all for player killing and love vgames like Mortal Kombat.

What I'm talking about is this:
You're a newbie at a newbie zone. To gain your first few levels, you're asked to go and slay as many rabbits as you can, and you're rewarded with XP for doing so. And countless other examples where you're rewarded advancement in levels and gold for killing as many creatures weaker than you as possible (forget about crafting for now). There is no challenge, like there is in PK.

I've tried playing games with the above only to abandon them in disgust and burn-out. It feels incredibly dumb and mind-numbing. It's taking a good thing (the above-mentioned inherent brutal traits) and stretching it out until there's no humanity left.
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:50 PM   #28
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette View Post
Kudos for the thought-provoking posts!

I see what all of you are saying... That bashing is inherent in our genes and we should let it out through games.

I understand and agree with that.

I'm all for player killing and love vgames like Mortal Kombat.

What I'm talking about is this:
You're a newbie at a newbie zone. To gain your first few levels, you're asked to go and slay as many rabbits as you can, and you're rewarded with XP for doing so. And countless other examples where you're rewarded advancement in levels and gold for killing as many creatures weaker than you as possible (forget about crafting for now). There is no challenge, like there is in PK.

I've tried playing games with the above only to abandon them in disgust and burn-out. It feels incredibly dumb and mind-numbing. It's taking a good thing (the above-mentioned inherent brutal traits) and stretching it out until there's no humanity left.
Yeah. Few of those in EQ2. Examples being the "training manuals" that ask you to kill off X number of Y, in five minutes, apparently for a tiny bit of exp and a marker saying you did the quest, but not much else. Then there is ones like the Bone Bladed Claymore than require, at one point, killing 1000 sentience creatures (no time limit) to empower it, then finish the empowerment by killing the lead vampire in some raid zone. Also annoying, but at least there is "purpose" behind it.

Oh, as a side note: The only major issue with violence in games is where someone with impulse control issues and social problems already pick ones to do nothing *but* imagine that every target is someone they know. The issue being their mental problems, not that they play the games. But its **so** easy to blame the games, or what ever other thing is the scapegoat this week.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:05 PM   #29
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette View Post
Kudos for the thought-provoking posts!

I see what all of you are saying... That bashing is inherent in our genes and we should let it out through games.

I understand and agree with that.

I'm all for player killing and love vgames like Mortal Kombat.

What I'm talking about is this:
You're a newbie at a newbie zone. To gain your first few levels, you're asked to go and slay as many rabbits as you can, and you're rewarded with XP for doing so. And countless other examples where you're rewarded advancement in levels and gold for killing as many creatures weaker than you as possible (forget about crafting for now). There is no challenge, like there is in PK.

I've tried playing games with the above only to abandon them in disgust and burn-out. It feels incredibly dumb and mind-numbing. It's taking a good thing (the above-mentioned inherent brutal traits) and stretching it out until there's no humanity left.
So is level grinding ok if there's a challenge? Now, I've actually enjoyed level grinding. There's a certain... pleasure? ... that I get from gaining an advancement, making myself a little better, a new skill... but it's still a grind!

Quote:
An awful lot of MUD combat systems are rather boring, bordering on automated, but there's no reason why they necessarily have to be.
There are a couple of muds, like Aetolia (spelling?) and Evarayn that make combat more like a video game than simply typing "kill monster" and waiting to see what happens.
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:03 AM   #30
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

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Originally Posted by obit View Post
Which "the govornment" are you referring to? Last time I checked, there were over 190 of 'em out there.

Presumably, you mean the one that will provide for you education, security, health care, a stable infastructure, and more rights and personal freedoms (Including the freedom to speak out in such a manner without being prosecuted as a traitor) than any other "the govornment" there is.

I suspect that you have yet to travel abroad and develop a sense of what the majority of this world is really like. No doubt, such experiences might cause you to appreciate that maybe The Man isn't such a villian afterall.

-obit
Ever hear of McCarthy?

I grew up in the institution known as the United Kingdom, which if you werent aware, is already gone barmy with censorship and ridiculous unfair laws. Every single movie is vetted before the British get to see it, the "ninja turtles" were banned and renamed "hero turtles". This is the same government which attempted to spread the catholic religion all over the world including where it wasn't welcome (see: the crusaders), via genocides. I wanted to flee this country to escape this mental prison, but do you think I don't know how many people will die for a British passport? The rest of Europe is only worse. 50 years ago Adolf Hitler gassed 20 million jews and not only did people just go along with it, they loved him. That is Europe. Want to talk about Africa? Lets do that. Look at the Zimbabwe dictator that recently left his post with 5 billion dollars that he stole legally from his own people. Saddam Hussein was similar with his palaces, but at least he brought stability to Iraq, something we havent done. Russia? They were once a glorious proud nation. Now under Putin the capital Moscow has developed some terrible narcotics problems, worse than most places in the world. Australia, civilization left this mostly untouched, right? No. That whole region was put together by the British. They shipped criminals to australia, they put chinese in singapore, they were just playing chess with peoples lives. The ecosystem has been getting ruined by importing animals that didnt belong there. Anywhere else, America? Gee didnt they have a war with the British, not long after commiting a genocide on the natives? I'm pretty sure they actually did have one. Their freedom was paid for with innocent blood - there's nothing "free" about it. It isnt something that was just given to you by the government because theyre a really cool bunch of chaps. This has spread all over the world and it is already here and always was.

Here is a fact for you - American didnt get its independence on 1776 like the books say. This is the day they "declared" it. But thats facetious. They didnt actually get independence until after the war of 1812 where the british finally gave up and left. All those history books are wrong. Can it be?

But of course people will want to live here. There's "free food". Or is there?

The only reason america's government hasnt gone further in the oppression of its people is this - WE CAN OWN GUNS. And the only reason this country is stable is also this - WE CAN OWN GUNS. This point should illustrate just perfectly that we should be able to own any game we want, because compared to guns, its a really trivial debate isnt it? Maybe its you who need to take a look around. Where is this paradise you seem to believe you live in? I dont see it. I see everyone busting their ass just to get by, because of all the cutbacks and recession this war has caused. I see a dollar that has lost 30% of its international value in the last 5 years. I see the gas at $4 per gallon, and while scientists work frantically to build more efficient engines, car makers kill the progress by building bigger and bigger SUVs. I see industry trying to sell ethanol-based fuel produced from genetically modified corn, which *still pollutes*, instead of moving onto electrical technology that has been available for 50 years. Oh yes, that obesity problem? Its the corn. Take a look at your fridge and search for "high fructose corn syrup" on your products. That's 90% sugar content, if you care to know what "high" means. They didnt add sugar, the corn they produce is already like that. That is what is making american kids fat and obese. Your body can't find nutrition enough in the corn you ate, so it decides you are still hungry, and must eat more of it, while all that sugar turns straight to fat. In some places in america you can buy whole foods, but many americans they dont have a choice - they must eat that crap. Since they can't find enough food to throw it into so they are trying to make it into fuel as well. Its not the environment they really care about, or the people. Who's idea was it to mass-produce this corn? The american government. That's capitalism, baby! Advertise a promise of feeding the world with food produced by their paid scientists and rake in the profits!

Amazingly (I say this with a scoff), people are now moving out of America, and into China, that evil communist nation bent on taking over the world, because they can actually find jobs there. And they say they LOVE China. With the worlds most hilariously oppressive government, by far! Peanuts are great motivators arent they.

Ideally I want my gaming left alone, but I'll settle for the b.s. that Walmart is agreeing to stock on their shelves for now. (A game doesnt get published in america if Walmart refuses to carry it. Censorship is already here and the soccer moms are already turning over control. Sorry pal. Right now we are enjoying freedom because the most politically active are the elderly, and they lived through war and care about it. When the baby boomers hit retirement, if we arent done in by then, we'll be doing it in ourselves the way things are going.)
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:45 AM   #31
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Sometimes, a post is so unintentionally hilarious, you just have to let it stand.

So, the armed elderly are holding America together, since the baby boomers have never been involved in one.....or three...wars...and don't care.

And no, I've never heard of Senator Joe McCarthy, McCarthyism, the Red Scare, or the House Committe on Unamerican Activities.... so tell me, what exactly -happened- to him...in the end?

The history books are all wrong...so, presumably, this information comes from....?

Uhm, and people LOVED Hitler, even those who traveled across an ocean and stomped a path to Berlin...for his autograph? Thoughtless of him to kill himself when so many fans were on his doorstep....

What a treasure trove! I need to read and re-read this post!
From the 'ban' on Ninja Turtles, right down to the governmental-capitalist conspiracy to turn our children into corn-people.

The UK is a censorship mecca, and the former Soviet Union was a glorious nation, at least, until Putin and the drug craze...Stalinism was a real picnic of glory.

And the mass migration of Americans to China...I bet that got censored from CNN. And here I thought my neighbors were just moving to Cedar Rapids.



I absolutely understand now why background checks are performed before gun sales.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:12 AM   #32
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

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From the 'ban' on Ninja Turtles
He's right. Davairus and I are around the same age, and I remember Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles coming out here. I hadn't a clue who Ninja Turtles were. Back then, anything to do with Ninjas was frowned on here, as this excerpt from the Ninja Turtles Wikipedia article shows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Upon TMNT's first arrival in the United Kingdom, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, The Netherlands, Austria and Germany, the name was changed to "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" (or TMHT, for short), since local censorship policies deemed the word ninja to have excessively violent connotations for a children's program. Consequently, everything related to the Turtles had to be renamed before being released in these nations. The lyrics were also changed, such as changing "Splinter taught them to be ninja teens" to the "Splinter taught them to be fighting teens."

The policies also had other effects, such as removing use of Michaelangelo's nunchaku (which were at the time banned from appearing in even 18-rated movies) and generally toning down the usage of all the turtles' weapons. After many seasons of never using his nunchaku, they eventually disappeared entirely, replaced by a turtle shell shaped grappling hook called the "Turtle Line".

However, when the live-action movie came out in 1990, the "Ninja" of the title was kept even in the UK. In time, nunchaku scenes were retained in previously-censored movies such as those of Bruce Lee.

By the time of the 2003 TV series, these censorship policies had been abolished, and no changes have occurred in the content of the show.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:55 AM   #33
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

I guess it didn't sound like so much of a ban to me as an editing for children's content.
It still tickles me that TMNT are mentioned in the same breath as a love of Hitler.

The part I missed in the very long post was where the censorship was abolished...like five years ago.

Thank you for clearing that up.
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:49 PM   #34
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

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Stalinism was a real picnic of glory.
Ahh, those were the golden days! Dirty, evil sex was outlawed back then. And you could buy a goldfish for 5 копеек.
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:50 PM   #35
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Anyway, does no one else find the current model of MMO's, unsettling? It reeks of immature players, ugly chatspeak, inflated egos through means of better equipment, better skills, and higher levels. Guilds get together to "raid"... and these raids are such an insult to intelligence. It's just many avatars moving in repetitive motions and doing as many things as they can to show off.

And the concept of pay-for-perks MMOs is in essence, "become outwardly better", until you are the greatest. It seems so superficial, and it wouldn't be disturbing if the kids that play these games didn't treat it like a religion. But they do.

I saw an episode on G4TV once, where there was an award for the best WoW player, or something like that. Out comes this spoiled, chubby kid with a glass of chocolate milk. He drinks some and spits it out right on the stage. And he didn't look at least humbled to be in the spotlight, or excited, plus there was zero interesting or worthwhile conversation.

Anyway, just another rant.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:55 AM   #36
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Here is a fact for you - American didnt get its independence on 1776 like the books say. This is the day they "declared" it. But thats facetious. They didnt actually get independence until after the war of 1812 where the british finally gave up and left. All those history books are wrong. Can it be?

Well, over that time period, Americans enacted their own laws, chose their own leaders, conducted diplomacy with foreign powers, performed military actions, etc., all without any authority given by the Kings of the day.

Regardless of what the paperwork said on either side of the Atlantic, America was an independent nation, by the virtue of it being able to act independently.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:25 AM   #37
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette View Post
Anyway, does no one else find the current model of MMO's, unsettling? It reeks of immature players, ugly chatspeak, inflated egos through means of better equipment, better skills, and higher levels. Guilds get together to "raid"... and these raids are such an insult to intelligence. It's just many avatars moving in repetitive motions and doing as many things as they can to show off.

And the concept of pay-for-perks MMOs is in essence, "become outwardly better", until you are the greatest. It seems so superficial, and it wouldn't be disturbing if the kids that play these games didn't treat it like a religion. But they do.

I saw an episode on G4TV once, where there was an award for the best WoW player, or something like that. Out comes this spoiled, chubby kid with a glass of chocolate milk. He drinks some and spits it out right on the stage. And he didn't look at least humbled to be in the spotlight, or excited, plus there was zero interesting or worthwhile conversation.

Anyway, just another rant.
I don't play graphics games, but I do find all the things you claim are so horrible in them, when I poke around in most muds these days. Chatspeak, immature players, inflated egos through means of better equipment, better skills, higher levels. Groups getting together to raid, with the raids being an insult to intelligence. Avatars moving in repetitive motions and showing off just "cause they can." The WoW kid could just as easily have been a Dragonballz MUD kid, or a "pick stock diku of the week" kid, or "LP freak of the month" kid, or even a "furry netsex with atmosphere" kid. Take a look around some of the muds - forget about graphics games (MMO means massively multiplaying on, which makes no sense, since it should be MMORPG, which doesn't mean exclusively graphics, because there are several non-graphical muds out there that are massively multiplayer online roleplaying games and I REALLY hate the use of that acronym to describe graphics games)...

Just take a look at some of the muds bopping around these days and you'll find the exact same attitudes, the exact same juvenile behavior, the exact same chatspeak, as you say exists in WoW.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:38 PM   #38
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Re: Where have we gone wrong? *may trigger :p*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette View Post
Anyway, does no one else find the current model of MMO's, unsettling? It reeks of immature players, ugly chatspeak, inflated egos through means of better equipment, better skills, and higher levels. Guilds get together to "raid"... and these raids are such an insult to intelligence. It's just many avatars moving in repetitive motions and doing as many things as they can to show off.
It depends on the people you meet, and the people you end up gaming with. To say that all MMO players are immature, speak in ugly chatspeak, and have inflated egos would be like saying that all MUDs have intelligent, well-versed, and creative people. Both statements are laughably untrue. The crux of the problem probably has very little to do with the game and much more to do with parenting styles (or lack of parenting at all). I know what goes into raiding. For a 12-13 year old to be doing it requires extremely lack of parenting.

Now, college kids do that a lot, too, but honestly, I feel that college kids are better off raiding than boozing it up, banging everything in sight, or inhaling any drug they can get their hands on. Granted, you can be doing that WHILE raiding, but you're not going to have a good raid for long.

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And the concept of pay-for-perks MMOs is in essence, "become outwardly better", until you are the greatest. It seems so superficial, and it wouldn't be disturbing if the kids that play these games didn't treat it like a religion. But they do.
Do you ever remember a time when you got really into something? My Little Ponies. Smurfs. TMNT. Transformers. Comic books. DnD. Unicorns. Toy guns. Swimming. Kids have pretty simple lives, and if they're left to their own devices, they'll just latch onto something and really get into it. It gives them a sense of control in the world where they can memorize all the things in a collection, or name every single toy they own. Treating this like some "disease" is deflecting from the real problem, in my opinion, which would be their own parents not exposing them to other things. WoW makes a really good babysitter for a 13 year old kid. Demonizing the games shifts the responsibility from the parents to the game companies, and I think that once you crush the gaming companies, you'll find those same kids doing other really bad things because their parents will still be looking for something else to babysit their kids.

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I saw an episode on G4TV once, where there was an award for the best WoW player, or something like that. Out comes this spoiled, chubby kid with a glass of chocolate milk. He drinks some and spits it out right on the stage. And he didn't look at least humbled to be in the spotlight, or excited, plus there was zero interesting or worthwhile conversation.

Anyway, just another rant.
Again, a kid doesn't get fat from playing video games. He gets fat from his diet and lack of exercise. Again, whose responsibility is that? Not the video game designers.
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