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#41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
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Anyways, I do believe they should fight for their own licence. Did i mention anywhere that i think it was bad aardwolf accepts donations? I'm not blaming aardwolf here, since i don't even know if it is really against the licence (and not some spirit of a licence, which is crap) to accept donations commercially without ending up on a profit. This has nothing to do with my opinion on things. I has to do with the mud community and what games they "accept" violating the licence, and what they don't accept. I think it is ironic that one of the largest games run banners and is ranked in the top of one of the largest mud community sites, and also is violating the licence (according to the people that actively try to enforce it). Also, you have to understand that the heat goes for the large games, that stand out among the rest, and are exposing themselves on the top of rank lists. Of course there is drawbacks with getting famous if you aren't running a legitimate business (or mud). Nobody probably notice a smaller game doing the same. It's not a crime to be popular, but it's easier to get cought for a crime you commit. |
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#42 |
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 23
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It should be noted that a total rewrite of Aardwolf's codebase is beginning/in progress, so as to replace the Diku code with all-custom work.
I don't really agree with one side or the other here, but it would seem that, unlike with Medeivia's alleged violations, this is going to all be a moot point at some time in the relatively near future. |
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#43 |
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It would be interesting to see this as a topic at the next MUD Con. That is, if the majority of us can stay sane, unlike the last two *peers in Iluvatars direction*
Thanks for the information on the quote from Hans, Kavir. |
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#44 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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#45 |
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 23
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Please, Kavir, give me at least a little credit. From what has been told to the players, Lasher is going to start the mud over completely from scratch, based on bare-bones code that has nothing whatsoever to do with Diku, and with full CVS logs to prove this. Hence, as I tried to say, not just a reimplementation.
Assuming Lasher himself won't pipe in here at some point, just log into the mud and type 'help v3'. |
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#46 |
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 35
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I have started with a blank piece of paper (well actually, a public domain outline of socket drivers). The whole mechanics of the new mud behind the scenes is completely different. In fact, in Aardwolf as it is today that is already true, but as it is today is does still have some pieces of Diku code in it and clearly a derivative.
However, the end result is going to look a lot like Aardwolf does today and, taking the article KaVir posted literally, nothing can ever change the fact that I have seen the Diku source code. Now we're getting into a whole new area - if implementing a feature you see on another MUD into your own code is a breach of copyright then a heck of a lot of muds have a good case against a heck of a lot of other muds. Where do you draw the line? Diku has prompts, Aardwolf will have prompts. Diku uses sockets to connect to the MUD, Aardwolf will use sockets to connect to the mud. Diku has a skill called 'kick', Aardwolf will have a skill called 'kick' - however differently they are implemented, they will even both do damage! I would imagine there are very few custom MUDs out there where the authors have never seen the diku source code. Some of them actually used to be Diku and still look a heck of a lot like Diku. Some of them aren't too far behind us in the polls either. Are they also piecemeal derivatives? The comparison to converting a book to another language is a good one, and would apply if I were doing an exact mapping of Diku to Java and claming it was original. What we are doing is more a case of reading Tolkien's works and going and writing any of the dozens of other sets of fantasy novels that are essentially the same story but 'implemented differently'. It is clear that no matter what we do this debate will continue and we are doomed to become the 'next Medievia' with or without a genuine effort to start over with a fresh codebase, which is not just for licensing reasons btw, there are many good technical reasons to do so. I will forge ahead with the new code regardless. |
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#47 | |
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However everyone already knows Diku as being........Diku. Also, I am not debating the quality or potential quality of your MUD. But I don't see how you can think what you're doing doesn't go against what the creators want. Whether they can do something about it or not. Do you really just not see that? |
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#48 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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"The next major update of Aardwolf is a rewrite on top of the skeleton 'SocketMud' handler with pieces of Aardwolf build on to it. In code terms, we will be heavily influenced by the Diku look and feel but will not have a single line of original Diku code. At that time I'll be more than happy to make our CVS logs available publicly (without code) and to make full code available to a qualified third party under non-disclosure. I guess we'll still be in somewhat of a grey area for having a few stock areas when the new version opens, but they'll be gone over time." Those "pieces of Aardwolf" could be scratch-written modules which had been slotted onto the original Diku derivative, but more likely they represent modifications to the Diku code - making it a piecewise reimplementation, as described in the link I provided. And "CVS logs" without code doesn't really prove anything I'm afraid. Example: Revision 1.2 Oct 28 00:00:00 2003 UTC by some_bloke All the old Diku code removed! Revision 1.1 Oct 27 00:00:00 2003 UTC by some_bloke Lots of cool stuff added. Revision 1.0 Oct 25 00:00:00 2003 UTC by some_bloke Initial version - stock Diku. And in response to Aardwolf's "Where do you draw the line?", the answer is fairly straightforward. If you start out with Diku, and change it, you get a Diku derivative. If you wish to create a new mud, you have to start from nothing. In your latest post, it seems that that's exactly what you've done - but if you start inserting chunks of Diku derived code back into it, you'll end up with a Diku derivative again. |
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#49 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 39
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Please remove all the MUDs that get lots of votes on the list, or more specifically, the ones that rank higher than mine. That way my game will soar to the top and I will be the ruler of topmudsites and all will bow before me!@ Bwah Ha ha ha ha!@
Seriously, though, I'm with Molly on this one. |
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#50 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 23
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#51 | |||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Now, it is possible to develop a mud in a modular fashion whereby the changes based on scratch-written modules could be shifted across to the new code base. However when you start with a Diku derivative, the majority of your changes aren't going to be like that. And when moving any non-derived stuff you do have, you're certainly unlikely to retain enough of the original to end up with a result that "looks a lot like" the original Diku derivative, unless you've very specifically gone out of your way to create something with the same look-and-feel. I'm not making any statements about guilt or innocence, as I've not seen the Aardwolf code, nor (to my knowledge) have they even transferred any of the old mud over to the new codebase yet. I am simply pointing out the possible scenarios. Quote:
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#52 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4
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I'm not entirely sure what the focus of this thread was in it's conception, but it's quite clear that that focus has been lost.. Exactly what is it that we need be concerned with at this point?
Are we debating whether or not Aardwolf should be listed on TMS? Quote:
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Are we to debate regarding the legalities of accepting donations? Are we debating in game rewards? Or are we discussing the inconsistencies and loopholes within the text of the license itself? If so I would assume that these questions have already been clearly answered in a number of other threads pertaining to the license. I know that I’ve read through at least four of them on this site and came to the conclusion that NO ONE knows what the license means.. I hate to have to put that right out in the open and it may mean a little less forum activity on the legal board, but you, I, Lasher, or Hephos do not have an answer for the above questions.. And it’s my understanding that the DIKU team apparently just does not care to take it up with the licensee’s and proper legal council.. Or finally are we now talking about Lashers new codebase? If so I would suggest that we move the topic from legal.. I would assume that that would be much better suited on a dev board.. |
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#53 | |
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#54 | |
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 23
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![]() I assumed that the providing of the source code was implied when mentioning the CVS logs- the code would be re-written, then provided to the aforementioned third-party, with the CVS logs to help track and prove the changes. As for the rest, i'm about at the limit of where I can make useful comments, as i'm not and don't plan to be a coder, but thanks at least for being a bit more specific about your position. |
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#55 |
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![]() *blink* People have anything else to do other than pick the muds that are nearest to the top of the list and insult them? Why not go pick on all he muds equally? Or do you have some new aardbashing fetish? :P The fact that this SAME information has been discussed in at least two threads should keep people from starting new threads in desparate attempts to keep this issue alive. yet even bad press is at least publicity. ;) I wonder how many people upon reading all these posts that say 'aard sux, tehy r no rox' constantly have gone and checked aard out. ;) I know that I went and checked out the other mud with lots of votes that I can never remember how to spell... :P They were bashed a lot in some other thread concerning giving out rewards for votes. But remember how defensive they got when their 'baby' was attacked, and don't be suprised if aard reacts in the same way.
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#56 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
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Quote:
Personally I'm just interested in knowing why people accept a game that is clearly violating the licence (according to the people that actively tries to enforce it) to be ranked in a public mud community site, and to run banners. It does not matter at all which particular game it is to me. The actual game, who runs it, what they are planning to do with their code, does not matter. So the thing is basically: Is accepting rewards for in-game benifits tolerated by the mud community? Being one of the largest mud community sites, moderated by people like kavir, this place has a responsibility to take a stand. If nothing is done, this would be just another bloke of the licence - "Who gives a ####." Well, then why don't ya all start accepting donations commercially right away, it won't harm your game, thats for sure, all the large games run commercially in some aspects (violating licences or not). You can even get yourself a banner running on mud community sites with the donation money. And NO i don't give a #### about rewarded donations myself, we already have a commercial project running without any dikumud connections, just on the doorstep to be released. And also, this particular game could just drop the in-game rewards, and run regular donations off the website ![]() ![]() |
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#57 |
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![]() I guess things depend on your opinion and views of them really. :) Each person will see things differently and until there is an 'official' ruling on things, things will never end. :)
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#58 | |||||
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#59 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 252
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The purpose of this thread seems to be, why hasn't Aardwolf been banned when Medieva did the EXACT same thing (violated the INTENT of the license) and WAS banned. All other points have been/are being brung up in other threads ![]() |
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#60 |
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10
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Medieva does not list the Diku credits when loading, breaking the letter of the contract.
In any case everything's been rehashed already, say something new or stop spamming the board. And especially stop spamming declaring aardwolf should be banned, doesn't belong here and is not up to us. |
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