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Old 05-04-2006, 03:21 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 04 2006,15:13)
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Originally Posted by
You gain nothing, lose the respect of community, and open yourself up to legitimate criticism for the foreseeable future.
Right there. Previous page in this thread.
My mistake, and I apologize for it. I missed that when I re-read the thread, and I usually try not to do that.

I think it's safe to say "elements of the community" there, however, because a number of people (with no real connection to one another, you included) have voiced their opinion that Medievia shouldn't have essentially flipped Synozeer the bird. I'm also not aware of anyone who thinks more of Medievia because they admit to plagiarism.

But you're correct that it's not unanimous-- the range of opinions runs from "Don't care." to "Disapprove." based on all posts on the matter.

Surely you agree that it's different from saying that because prof1515 wrote a post about Soleil's family, that large groups of people agree with him, absent a single comment to that effect?
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:33 PM   #62
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Valg wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by

I think it's safe to say "elements of the community" there, however, because a number of people (with no real connection to one another, you included) have voiced their opinion that Medievia shouldn't have essentially flipped Synozeer the bird.
I'm not following. What does them being kicked off/asked to leave TMS have to do with plagiarism? I would have preferred they wanted to follow the rules here and stay here, because the more MUDs (particularly the big ones like Medievia) that list on TMS and encourage players to vote on TMS, the more valuable TMS is. In that sense I would have preferred he not flipped the bird to Synozeer, but at the same time, I'd prefer that Simutronics get their players to vote too, but there's nothing wrong with not listing your MUD here in the voting ranks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Surely you agree that it's different from saying that because prof1515 wrote a post about Soleil's family, that large groups of people agree with him, absent a single comment to that effect?
PM'd you.

--matt
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:20 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 04 2006,15:33)
I'm not following. What does them being kicked off/asked to leave TMS have to do with plagiarism?
In the original post you quoted, my analogy was that both are easily fixed (restore credits, agree to comply with Synozeer's voting rules), incur no cost to Medievia, and I imagine would:

1) Get people talking about Medievia in a positive light.
2) Remove ammunition from their detractors.
3) Fortify their legal position (re: credits) by reducing copyright infringement concerns.

(Their stance would remain that they are a DIKU derivative by the letter of the law, but that the license is unfair, unenforcable, or whatever. This is what they're saying now anyway.)

I don't understand why a PR director would oppose either of those steps from just a cost/benefit analysis, let alone the fact that proper crediting of creators is consistent with professional ethics in any field.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:17 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ May 04 2006,11:29)
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If he's got no conscience about stealing, what's to say he has any concern about beating you or any children you may have?
This is when I bow out of the conversation because I do not wish to stoop THIS low.  Once my family is insulted and threatened, it's just not worth it.  Have fun judging me and my family based on this inane issue.
Where did I, or anyone, threaten you or your family? Please be so kind as to point it out.

I simply pointed out that since Vryce has exhibited a lack of ethics by stealing something and claiming it as his own and has no problem in doing that, what is keeping him from finding jusfication for any other acts that society considers unethical or illegal? If taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own for your own profit, in spite of their position on that, is acceptable to him, what's keeping him from finding some other act, be it beating his wife or stealing from the local charity, if he can simply justify it by saying that noone took him to court?

You, citing him as your husband, have defended his actions, regardless of what they may be and freely admitted that you get your interpretation of his actions from him. If you can defend one unethical act on the basis of marriage and a lack of litigation, what's going to keep you from defending him on anything else? If your source of opinion is the word of someone else and not the result of your own thinking, what's to keep you from justifying any other act he may ever commit? That's pretty much the same thing that abused women do ("He didn't mean to hurt" or "He means well"). He does something wrong. You defend him. Evidence is presented to the effect that what he's done is wrong. You claim ignorance and "stand by your man". That's been your pattern in this matter and you haven't shown evidence of free-thinking on your part.

So as for insult, if you were insulted by what I said, is it because I hit close to home or because it actually scared you to contemplate about the consequences of not thinking for yourself?

Take care,

Jason
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:27 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ May 04 2006,19:17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is when I bow out of the conversation because I do not wish to stoop THIS low. Once my family is insulted and threatened, it's just not worth it. Have fun judging me and my family based on this inane issue.
Where did I, or anyone, threaten you or your family? Please be so kind as to point it out.

I simply pointed out that since Vryce has exhibited a lack of ethics by stealing something and claiming it as his own and has no problem in doing that, what is keeping him from finding jusfication for any other acts that society considers unethical or illegal? If taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own for your own profit, in spite of their position on that, is acceptable to him, what's keeping him from finding some other act, be it beating his wife or stealing from the local charity, if he can simply justify it by saying that noone took him to court?

You, citing him as your husband, have defended his actions, regardless of what they may be and freely admitted that you get your interpretation of his actions from him. If you can defend one unethical act on the basis of marriage and a lack of litigation, what's going to keep you from defending him on anything else? If your source of opinion is the word of someone else and not the result of your own thinking, what's to keep you from justifying any other act he may ever commit? That's pretty much the same thing that abused women do ("He didn't mean to hurt" or "He means well"). He does something wrong. You defend him. Evidence is presented to the effect that what he's done is wrong. You claim ignorance and "stand by your man". That's been your pattern in this matter and you haven't shown evidence of free-thinking on your part.

So as for insult, if you were insulted by what I said, is it because I hit close to home or because it actually scared you to contemplate about the consequences of not thinking for yourself?

Take care,

Jason
I suppose what led her to draw those conclusions is something similar to what led you to draw yours. If someone is capable of expeling such horrendous words and such an agressive phrases over an issue that nobody else attacked with such viciousness before in either of the two threads, what is stopping this 1337-monster from actually finding where she lives and possibly getting a shotgun and waiting for one of her children to step outside.

I personally felt disgusted with the way you worded your post, I actually feel disgusted whenever you take this kind of extreme aggresive stance towards anybody, you are not only offensive but also refuse to provide any new insight towards the discussion before lashing out with a string of nonsense.

I would like to ask the moderator of this thread to remove this (mine) along with all previous posts related to this issue, as they are all off-topic and nothing else but a flame thread.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:33 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 04 2006,11:30)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ May 04 2006,11:19)
Perhaps you should divorce him then.  I mean, he's an unethical asshole.  If he's got no conscience about stealing, what's to say he has any concern about beating you or any children you may have?

Maybe he does beat you and you're one of those wives in denial of the fact that she's married to an asshole (the former may not be true, but the latter certainly seems the case).  Hard to say without actually observation.  You certainly don't seem to have the reasoning skills to ascertain right and wrong very well and seem to be overly-dependant upon his interpretation of things as a guideline for what is and isn't correct.  Sounds like a classic doormat-wife to me.

One thing though, please.  Don't have children.  With your attitude about ethics, I seriously hope you never have any.  If so, they'll end up being a pathetic lot of criminals if you intend to teach them ethics by example:  "It's not really a crime, son, if it never comes to court.  Just look at daddy."
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh man, that is rich.

That post is a perfect example of the morals and ethics that are at the core of the Anti-Medievia crowd as well.
How is it immoral to point out that if a person is perfectly happy to commit one wrong act, deny it until it's obvious, then claim they don't care or attempt to justify it with the flimsiest of excuses once, they're just as capable of doing it again? How is it immoral to point out that someone who defends another's actions, in spite of all the evidence, on the basis of feigned ignorance and their own admission that they base their opinion only on their spouses (and not as the result of their own) reasoning, is likely to do the same in the case of other unethical actions?

As for "why this issue should be buried FOREVER and never, ever talked about on any MUD community forum", since when is a controversial issue not supposed to be talked about? Hiding one's head in the sand is never a solution. Unless, of course, you're afraid of the consequences of discussion.

As for my post being "the most disgusting thing ever posted on TMS", how do you qualify that as so? As I said above, if she can defend Vryce's actions based solely on his word while claiming ignorance in the face of evidence contrary to it, what's to keep her from doing the same for any other unethical act he may ever commit? And given that he's perfectly happy to commit an act that is deemed unethical and shows no regret in doing so, what's to keep him from applying that same lack of principle to any other action? And as for the both of them, if they can rationalize and justify their unethical actions, what kind of role models will they make as parents? Children learn their behavior. If it's ok for the parents to steal and make up excuses to justify it, what's going to teach a child that stealing is wrong? Or for that matter, that anything is wrong if you can come up with some flimsy excuse to defend it, especially if noone takes action against you legally?

That's one of the problems with our society: bad parenting.

Jason
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:53 PM   #67
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I'll keep it simple. I'm not offended(though I don't offend easily), but I'll say this;

Making ethical judgements on another's actions is fine(and even natural). However, on principle, let's avoid fanning the flames to the point where we have to mention each other's families, for any reasons. It just isn't necessary or positive.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:00 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Spoke @ May 04 2006,20:27)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ May 04 2006,19:17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
This is when I bow out of the conversation because I do not wish to stoop THIS low.  Once my family is insulted and threatened, it's just not worth it.  Have fun judging me and my family based on this inane issue.
Where did I, or anyone, threaten you or your family?  Please be so kind as to point it out.

I simply pointed out that since Vryce has exhibited a lack of ethics by stealing something and claiming it as his own and has no problem in doing that, what is keeping him from finding jusfication for any other acts that society considers unethical or illegal?  If taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own for your own profit, in spite of their position on that, is acceptable to him, what's keeping him from finding some other act, be it beating his wife or stealing from the local charity, if he can simply justify it by saying that noone took him to court?

You, citing him as your husband, have defended his actions, regardless of what they may be and freely admitted that you get your interpretation of his actions from him.  If you can defend one unethical act on the basis of marriage and a lack of litigation, what's going to keep you from defending him on anything else?  If your source of opinion is the word of someone else and not the result of your own thinking, what's to keep you from justifying any other act he may ever commit?  That's pretty much the same thing that abused women do ("He didn't mean to hurt" or "He means well").  He does something wrong.  You defend him.  Evidence is presented to the effect that what he's done is wrong.  You claim ignorance and "stand by your man".  That's been your pattern in this matter and you haven't shown evidence of free-thinking on your part.

So as for insult, if you were insulted by what I said, is it because I hit close to home or because it actually scared you to contemplate about the consequences of not thinking for yourself?

Take care,

Jason
I suppose what led her to draw those conclusions is something similar to what led you to draw yours. If someone is capable of expeling such horrendous words and such an agressive phrases over an issue that nobody else attacked with such viciousness before in either of the two threads, what is stopping this 1337-monster from actually finding where she lives and possibly getting a shotgun and waiting for one of her children to step outside.

I personally felt disgusted with the way you worded your post, I actually feel disgusted whenever you take this kind of extreme aggresive stance towards anybody, you are not only offensive but also refuse to provide any new insight towards the discussion before lashing out with a string of nonsense.

I would like to ask the moderator of this thread to remove this (mine) along with all previous posts related to this issue, as they are all off-topic and nothing else but a flame thread.
Rather poor reasoning on your part with the whole shotgun thing.

As for you being disgusted at "nonsense", read what I wrote. She's defending him on the basis of marriage and his word, not on the basis of facts. She continues to claim ignorance regardless of what's presented. Not much more that I can say to make her change her mind as she's obviously not using it to begin with. It's just her repeating what he said and defending him without thought. Either that or she's ignoring the evidence and just as unethical as he is.

The issue isn't about whether legal action has been taken, it's about the fact that an unethical act was commited in the first place and that those who did it have no remorse (or continue to feign ignorance) and will not take the ethical course of admitting it, apologizing, and offering compensation and repentance for what they did. Citing a lack of litigation isn't justification of one's actions.

I find it funny that my pointing out the lame nature of her continued claims of ignorance and defense of someone without consideration of facts constitutes some "kind of extreme aggressive stance". She claims she didn't know what happened. It's been explained. She won't change her opinion because she's married to the guy? That's not a defense. It's an excuse. If anything should disgust you, it's the lack of concern she seems to have for his actions and the sorry state of ethics displayed by those who've defended him.

As I said before, if he admitted what he did was wrong and took efforts to make amends, the issue would go away. I, for one, would find that satisfactory (though ultimately, it's not my call). But the fact that Vryce refuses and Soleil continues to blindly defend him on the most pathetic of reasoning doesn't lend anything to their reputations. But it does say something about them.

My response says something about me too. It says that I don't stand for people rationalizing their actions just because they don't want to face the consequences of them. I realize with my posts that some people will take offense. However, they're killing the messenger because of the message, or because they don't like the way in which the message is being made. Sad when style matters more than content and when a crude statement constitutes a worse offense than an actual unethical action.

Again, says something about the sorry state of our society.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ May 04 2006,20:53)
I'll keep it simple. I'm not offended(though I don't offend easily), but I'll say this;

Making ethical judgements on another's actions is fine(and even natural). However, on principle, let's avoid fanning the flames to the point where we have to mention each other's families, for any reasons. It just isn't necessary or positive.
Normally, I would agree. However, in this case, she brought her family into it. Her own words were:

"Of course I support him, he is my husband. However, I really can't speak with all honestly about what happened before 1995 because I wasn't around. For that information I rely on what Vryce tells me. I'll leave it at that."

She made her marriage to him a reason for her position and she openly claimed that she depends upon him for her interpretation of the facts.

I can honestly say that if my wife committed an act that others found questionable, I would trust her to tell the truth. However, if facts came to light that shed a shadow on her position, I would investigate for myself, without reserve and without the position of trust. When I realized she was not telling the truth, I would not stand up for her, regardless of marriage. She would have, by committing an unethical act, forfeited that trust. One act of dishonesty can be a sign of more and one unethical act can point to others. Trust, and defense of another, can not be built upon anything but honesty, be it between two people or between a person and the world.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:35 PM   #70
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Jason (calling you prof, after what you've posted here, just doesn't make sense), if you cannot comprehend the difference between someone stealing or misusing intellectual property, and battering one's wife and kids, then you've got bigger problems than just your current inability to leave the house.

Speaking of which, when I read the hateful things you've written in this thread, all I can say is..... Karma baby. Karma.

Watch a few episodes of "My Name is Earl." It might help you.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:56 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 04 2006,21:35)
Jason (calling you prof, after what you've posted here, just doesn't make sense), if you cannot comprehend the difference between someone stealing or misusing intellectual property, and battering one's wife and kids, then you've got bigger problems than just your current inability to leave the house.

Speaking of which, when I read the hateful things you've written in this thread, all I can say is..... Karma baby. Karma.

Watch a few episodes of "My Name is Earl." It might help you.
Someone being unable to determine that there is no difference between being able to justify one unethical act and another is basically ignoring human nature. If you steal because you know you can get away with it, you can just as easily do the same for any other act provided the same lack of consequence is likely. If someone will defend your actions in spite of their nature, you're inclined to do something else if you know they'll be just as forgiving. People do it every day.

I can't say I've written anything hateful. I've been bluntly honest and inconsiderate toward some common emotional reactions, but I'm not here to make people feel happy when they lie or otherwise spin bull**** to rationalize and justify their own interests. In your opinion, it's probably hateful, but that's basically demonizing someone or their actions because you disagree with their position. Sad but common tactic that you've exhibited before.

As for karma, I don't believe in it, but if such a thing exists, most of the world is in for an ass-reaming as well.

Take care,

Jason

P.S.--Feel free to call me Jason, prof1515, or anything you want. I hold your opinion with all the regard it deserves. That is to say, none.
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:09 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ May 04 2006,11:29)
This is when I bow out of the conversation because I do not wish to stoop THIS low.  Once my family is insulted and threatened, it's just not worth it.  Have fun judging me and my family based on this inane issue.
There isn't actually a threat there as I read it, if you cared.

I wouldn't call it an insult either, honestly. It's put a lot more bluntly than I would have, but I don't think there's anything there that's not basically true.

People don't need courts to say "Person X is doing a ****ty, unethical thing, and if they don't attempt to redress it, they're an unethical person." The law has a great and important place in our society, but, as they say, you cannot legislate morality, and we shouldn't depend on it for our value judgements.

The example in question lacks tact, but I don't think it's out of line to suggest that an unrepentantly unethical person might do other unethical things.
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:48 AM   #73
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Jason, how can you possibly fail to understand? Even if everything the anti-Med crowd says is true (and honestly, I have always agreed with many of their points), that type of unethical behavior does not even come close to beating one's wife and kids.

Can you not comprehend the difference between IP theft (which is a theft that does not deprive its owner of the product) and a violent crime? Most IP theft is never even considered a criminal act - it gets resolved in a purely civil manner.

Do you not understand that this is precisely why violent crime has far harsher penalties than non-violent crime?

Is every former Napster user a ticking timebomb just waiting to beat or kill someone because they engaged in IP theft by downloading copyrighted music?

Why does this very simple, yet significant, distinction elude you?

Can you not see that no matter how much you dislike Vryce for his behavior regarding DIKU, it is absolutely ridiculous to say such behavior makes him likely to beat his wife and kids?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ May 04 2006,22:56)
As for karma, I don't believe in it, but if such a thing exists, most of the world is in for an ass-reaming as well.
Or perhaps some people who earned their bad karma are already suffering the consequences.
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Old 05-05-2006, 02:58 AM   #74
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Threshold @ May 04 2006,11:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh man, that is rich.

That post is a perfect example of the morals and ethics that are at the core of the Anti-Medievia crowd as well.
I found Jason's post distasteful and unnecessarily blunt myself.

However, your response to it is even worse.

It's 'a perfect example' of the sweeping insults that you are in the habit of making against large numbers of the community. Based on what? Bull**** in your own head.

As for hateful, you easily qualify as the most hateful poster I've seen on these boards. Your repeated attacks on KaVir, calling him insane and whatever, is just one example of this.

I only see one person foaming at the mouth in that interchange. And that person isn't KaVir.

Seriously Threshold, clean up your own act before attacking others.
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Old 05-05-2006, 04:46 AM   #75
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I don't think we're going to get anything more constructive out of this thread, and it's gone quite far off-topic for the Legal Issues forum, so I'm locking it.
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