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Old 01-15-2009, 07:07 AM   #201
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
I'll be posting some suggestions in the upcoming days on ways to recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light (want to run more of them by the RPMUD Operating Committee to determine the degree of assistance we can provide as a group so I can append the degree of involvement that more than just I can contribute to this effort).
Keep in mind that there are people who do not like to RP. MUDs are about more than that.

About the wiki thing. I use Adblock Plus so I do not really get the ads, and if people feel disturbed by flashing ads and annoying sounds they might be playing then I really recommend to use advertisement block software. When things are moving around in those ads you are very tempted to look at them. It can definitely make it difficult to read articles. It is a shame people have been allowed to spam the Internet like this. I started use it when ads began to fill entire pages. It just got too far.
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Old 01-15-2009, 07:47 AM   #202
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeran View Post
Keep in mind that there are people who do not like to RP. MUDs are about more than that.
There are also MUDs that try to combine RP and what may be described as hack and slash and where one can go from one mode into the other. These are the category of MUDs that are deliberately RP Encouraged, not Enforced. These are MUDs where people RP, but also spend a lot of time talking OOCly (getting to know people from across the world) or killing stuff for exp. It is possible to go from one mode into the other in game, and being able to stand out of character at times without having someone breathe down your neck has its advantages. I am sure RP purists would say its "inferior" to a deeply immersive IC situation, but its an option a lot of people actually LIKE. Pushing for a regulation of the MUD community by RP purists, would be exclusionary both for non RP MUDs and mixed content MUDs like ours.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:01 AM   #203
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleothera
Pushing for a regulation of the MUD community by RP purists, would be exclusionary both for non RP MUDs and mixed content MUDs like ours.
Where did I say anything about "regulation of the MUD community by RP purists" anywhere in my post? Hmmm? I didn't. I said I would hold off making some suggestions I had until I could try to involve The RPMUD Network in the effort to "recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light". Now, if you're suggesting that H&S games aren't capable or willing to try and work together with the community in a responsible or dignified manner, I think you'll find that's not the case because that's not very fair of a statement to make in regard to the H&S (or any other) members of the MU* community. If you want to say that you're incapable of such an effort, that's fine. If that's not what you're suggesting, I suggest you read posts more carefully next time.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:47 AM   #204
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

How ultimately divided the community is became clear to me a few days ago when I created the Multi-User Dungeons category on Wikipedia as an umbrella category for all mud related articles. I promptly got reverted when I tried to include the MU* games category - being told that MUSHes in no way wish to be identified with MUDs (which is rather odd given most articles in the category were muds) - so I ended up creating a MUD games category and moving most of the MU* games content to it.

Apparently a long coming divorce in cyberspace.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:17 AM   #205
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
I said I would hold off making some suggestions I had until I could try to involve The RPMUD Network in the effort to "recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light".
I think I might have added to the confusion a bit. Both your posts above appeared to me as pushing RPMUD and how to get RPE(enforced) MUDs seen as citation worthy.

The reason I got confused was that to me it felt like yet another TMS/TMC website, and to tell the truth I had never heard of "RPMUD Network" before. Neither did a search on Google reveal it. Searching TMS I got a clue that RPIMUD Network @ RPIMUD.com might be its website?

Edit: Also who/what is the "RPMUD Committee"?
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:17 AM   #206
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum
How ultimately divided the community is became clear to me a few days ago when I created the Multi-User Dungeons category on Wikipedia as an umbrella category for all mud related articles. I promptly got reverted when I tried to include the MU* games category - being told that MUSHes in no way wish to be identified with MUDs (which is rather odd given most articles in the category were muds) - so I ended up creating a MUD games category and moving most of the MU* games content to it.

Apparently a long coming divorce in cyberspace.
The unwillingness of some in the community to work together is one of those things that might just need to be ignored. Partial participation will continually cripple the community but if the community simply concedes to that, it's even worse. The real solution is not to give into those who would choose to exclude themselves from comparison, no matter what their reasons, especially when they fit the criteria shared by their peers.

Case in point, the RPMUD Operating Committee decided that critical reviews conducted by the site would not be subject to exemptions. Likewise, recognition would not be limited merely to those games who chose to participate in the community. In order to ascertain an informed comparison we can not exclude, whether by request or by absence of participation in the community, games which possess the similarities to their peers regardless of whether they might be above or below the average mark of the field. We realize this might upset some games, especially those who fail to measure up in comparison to their peers, but the basis of fairness is not to favor, either positively or negatively, any group either through its inclusion or exclusion from the whole. It is impossible to gain a comprehensive understanding of anything without examining every possible bit of available data.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #207
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I resent the unwarranted personal attack inherent in your statement. I think it may be better to listen to the person making a point before going on the offensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
If you want to say that you're incapable of such an effort, that's fine. If that's not what you're suggesting, I suggest you read posts more carefully next time.
Now, my point was not about the the willingness of H&S MUDs to be mature (I have absolutely NO idea where the implication that they, and specially ours, arent). Lets go back to what you actually said initially, namely

...to recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light (want to run more of them by the RPMUD Operating Committee to determine the degree of assistance we can provide as a group so I can append the degree of involvement that more than just I can contribute to this effort).

Now there is no problem with the mission of making the MUD community dignified. However, you say you want more MUDs to be run by the RPMUD Operating Committee. It appears to be a group of RPI MUDS. According to RPIMUD Network @ RPIMUD.com you need to be a RPI MUD to join. What are the characteristics of such a MUD- they are listed on the same page- and rule out the participation of games that attempt to straddle both RP and normal game mechanics.

My argument was that while its GREAT to make MUDs more serious entities, it doesnt have to be an exercise lead by purely RPI MUDS alone.I was actually replying to Aeran and his comment about how there are other things to MUDs besides RP.

Yes, you may have meant that you want to do your bit with the resources available with you and maybe I didn't make my point clear enough from the start. It can be a badly worded post, without being a post based on not reading things or one written with bad intent. Next time, however, please assume good faith on forum entries as much as the Wikipedia and ASK what I meant instead of launching an attack.

I hope we go back to the original topic- without getting sidetracked into another RPI-RP-non RP MUD discussion. We have had another thread on this already.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:28 AM   #208
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeran View Post
I think I might have added to the confusion a bit. Both your posts above appeared to me as pushing RPMUD and how to get RPE(enforced) MUDs seen as citation worthy.
The goal isn't to make them be seen as citation worthy. Our goal is to provide a verified, independent third-party site, not affiliated with nor dependant upon any game in particular, which will offer critical review of games and a professional-style approach.

Quote:
The reason I got confused was that to me it felt like yet another TMS/TMC website, and to tell the truth I had never heard of "RPMUD Network" before. Neither did a search on Google reveal it. Searching TMS I got a clue that RPIMUD Network @ RPIMUD.com might be its website?
The RPMUD Network was formerly known as the RPIMUD Network but we changed the name and focus of the site. While the existing webpage is outdated, we're working on a new one that will reflect the new approach we have taken to the goals and mission of the site (mentioned above in this post).

My point with my post earlier was that some of the groundwork we've already gone over in terms of defining the substance and goals of our site might prove useful to other niches of the community, be it pure H&S, PvP, or whatever in organizing for themselves critical review and resource sites providing more substantial content and functionality for their particular sub-genre of MU*s. If the Operating Committee approves, I'll elaborate more as to the discussions, concepts and conclusions we've reached in redesigning our site.

Jason
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:03 PM   #209
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleothera
However, you say you want more MUDs to be run by the RPMUD Operating Committee.
I did not say that. Let us break down what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515
I'll be posting some suggestions...
Please note the word "suggestions". Suggestions are not commands nor does that imply in any way that I or anyone else would "want more MUDs to be run by the RPMUD Operating Committee" or anyone else. The RPMUD Network will not be running games. It will be providing the community and not the games with verified, independent third-party data and critical review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515
...in the upcoming days on ways to recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light (want to run more of them by the RPMUD Operating Committee to determine the degree of assistance we can provide as a group so I can append the degree of involvement that more than just I can contribute to this effort).
"Run by" means to present to, in this case for a decision from the Operating Committee regarding my suggestions and what degree of support the RPMUD Network may wish to offer as a group in helping the general MU* community in regard to those suggestions. I do not want to presuppose to know what the Operating Committee as a whole will decide. Until I speak with them and we approve as a group what degree, if any, of effort we would want to contribute to helping others beyond the scope of our focus, I will not post the suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleothera
...it doesnt have to be an exercise lead by purely RPI MUDS alone.I was actually replying to Aeran and his comment about how there are other things to MUDs besides RP
I never said it had to be lead by "purely RPI MUDs alone". I said I will post some suggestions for making the community a more useful one, de-emphasizing the present failings which prevent it from attaining respectability. When I've cleared it with the rest of the Operating Committee, I may be able to suggest some ways in which we can help through participation in the overall MU* community (despite our emphasis being only on RP-Enforced MU*S).

Jason

Last edited by prof1515 : 01-15-2009 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:17 PM   #210
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleothera View Post
Now, my point was not about the the willingness of H&S MUDs to be mature (I have absolutely NO idea where the implication that they, and specially ours, arent). Lets go back to what you actually said initially, namely

...to recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light (want to run more of them by the RPMUD Operating Committee to determine the degree of assistance we can provide as a group so I can append the degree of involvement that more than just I can contribute to this effort).

Now there is no problem with the mission of making the MUD community dignified. However, you say you want more MUDs to be run by the RPMUD Operating Committee. It appears to be a group of RPI MUDS. According to RPIMUD Network @ RPIMUD.com you need to be a RPI MUD to join. What are the characteristics of such a MUD- they are listed on the same page- and rule out the participation of games that attempt to straddle both RP and normal game mechanics.

Actually.. let's go back to exactly what he said instead of taking part of it out of context.

***
I'll be posting some suggestions in the upcoming days on ways to recast the community not only in a more responsible but also a more dignified light (want to run more of them by the RPMUD Operating Committee to determine the degree of assistance we can provide as a group so I can append the degree of involvement that more than just I can contribute to this effort).
***

He will be posting suggestions after running his suggestions by the RPMUD Network Committee. It's really not that hard to understand what was said, and that is a far cry from saying he wants the MUDs to be ran by the RPMud Committee. That'd just be plain dumb.
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:18 PM   #211
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Hi folks,

I am personally proud of those people who are spending their time and effort in making MUD's (all of them) more well known and gaining notoreity.

Proph1515 has done a fantastic job of this with his RPMUD network. I don't always agree with him but I respect his groups efforts. Stop railing on him and thank him for his work. He is not trying to make all MUD's cater to his network. He is trying to build a community within the MUD community. There is way to much in fighting here and that needs to stop if we want to collectively gain more players

FredBauder is another one who started MUDWiki. Nice.

Someone did WikiMU*.

All of these people are working to bolster are community. Good work and carry on. Many of us back you up!

(Disclaimer: NW is not part of any of the above groups or communities, we just support the actions to build such things.)
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:25 PM   #212
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeran View Post
Edit: Also who/what is the "RPMUD Committee"?

The RPMud Committee is a group of people who are in charge of managing the RPMud network, making decisions on how we will manage our website and make policies of how to handle the various tasks we are setting out to do.

Last edited by ShadowsDawn : 01-15-2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason: fix typos
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:42 PM   #213
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Hi folks,

I am personally proud of those people who are spending their time and effort in making MUD's (all of them) more well known and gaining notoreity.

Proph1515 has done a fantastic job of this with his RPMUD network. I don't always agree with him but I respect his groups efforts. Stop railing on him and thank him for his work. He is not trying to make all MUD's cater to his network. He is trying to build a community within the MUD community. There is way to much in fighting here and that needs to stop if we want to collectively gain more players
Thank you for the kind words of support but the RPMUD Network is not me alone. There are five of us (and a recently elected sixth member) who have ALL been working hard now for week after week, month after month. Every Monday night for the last 4-5 months has consisted of 4-5 hour long meetings refining and re-defining the site's purpose and trying to find the best way to accomplish the most good, then the coders in our group have worked through the week on the various aspects while the others have begun some of the other non-code aspects of the site design. If anything, my role has been more in terms of organization and management of the group itself than the actual nose-to-grindstone coding of the site (codetard that I am). But the Operating Committee as a whole has determined our course. ShadowsDawn and I are the two members who participate here on TMS but there are also three others who don't participate on the TMS forums. Together, we've got a variety of perspectives on the various types of RP-Enforced MU*s and every decision we've made has been the result of our combined determination, weighing everything as fully as we can before proceeding (in fact, we've discussed everything to such minute detail that with only a few exceptions the final results of our discussions have ended in 5-0 decisions).

I do thank you though and I'm sure the others do as well. Hopefully our efforts will yield a result which can fill a void in the community, at least so far as enforced RP MU*s are concerned.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:47 PM   #214
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

(Not directed at NewWorlds, just responding to his quote)

Quote:
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All of these people are working to bolster are community. Good work and carry on. Many of us back you up!

It's hard to do this without starting some kind of holy war, but in the interests of community building and bringing more people into MUDs, RPMuds could do with taking a serious look at how they treat people who obviously don't want to roleplay.

We often get a lot of people on Aardwolf asking about roleplay. We tell them that some clans do some roleplaying and there is a channel/forum for it, but roleplay is not an integral part of the MUD. We also tell them that there are many fine MUDs out there that do focus on roleplay and direct them here, TMC, etc. There is no implication of what is right or better, just differences in style.

It has been a while since I did this, but I used to hang out on RPMuds from time to time. Newbies who appeared new to MUDs and were probably looking for a more hack and slash environment were often derided and looked down on. Either that or they were told to learn to roleplay and they'd like it eventually. No idea what happened to those folks, but if they were new to MUDs they might not be aware of the huge range in styles of MUD, decided it wasn't what they wanted, and gone back to WoW or whatever. The same applies to "Hardcore PK" vs non-PK.

If we get a new player on our MUDs who is clearly not going to be a good fit for the style, instead of ridiculing them let's direct them to a place they can find a mud they do like. Nobody loses, it keeps them in the niche and as tastes change over time, they may just find your own MUD a better fit in the future.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:47 PM   #215
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Permit me to reiterate for the record once again-

a. No one is railing at Prof1515. No one is questioning the value and contribution of the group he is associated with to the MUD community. Disagreeing with a single post on a webforum (perhaps based on ambiguous syntax), does not constitute a question over personal worth, commitment or contribution. This, however, works both ways.

b. What I am saying is in the context of what Lasher has also just said, it would help to have THOSE games to be also professional and maturely run. I belong to the extreme end of the RP end of my MUD, there are new players we get to whom we have to explain the difference between IC and OOC. I have seen some of these same people (without any previous background of tabletop RPGs etc) move on (in a recent case of my clan) to join the local branch of the Historical Anachronism Society after 6 months of DE. New people need to try out RP before they begin to like it. This happens in non RPI MUDs. Some people eventually end up in RPI games. Some still don't want to play RPI games- preferring other forms of MUD gaming (anything from social MUDs to more engrossing hack and slash). Others stick to the same mix of OOC sociability, hack and slash and RP (but usually with a heavier tilt towards RP as they get used to the mechanics of the game). Its a matter of choice for the individual in the end.

However, as I said the last time, my intention is NOT to launch into a huge digression on the H&S-RP Encouraged- RP Enforced- RPI muds continuum (which is really outside the purview of this discussion). We were discussing valid and reliable sources of information on MUDs (of all stripes, including RPI) and ways to make the community more professional before it got side tracked (largely because of me I guess). Sorry for taking everyone off topic for almost half a screen.

In this context Lasher's point about pooling players and sending them along to the places they might like- be they sending budding RPers who have outgrown their context onwards to heavier RP MUDs or people who login into heavy RP Games and find themselves unhappy, to games with a less intensive RP, has a lot of value.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:53 PM   #216
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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It's hard to do this without starting some kind of holy war....
JIHAD!

(Laughs as he realizes the CIA probably just flagged this site and discussion)
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:20 PM   #217
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasher View Post
(Not directed at NewWorlds, just responding to his quote)




It's hard to do this without starting some kind of holy war, but in the interests of community building and bringing more people into MUDs, RPMuds could do with taking a serious look at how they treat people who obviously don't want to roleplay.

We often get a lot of people on Aardwolf asking about roleplay. We tell them that some clans do some roleplaying and there is a channel/forum for it, but roleplay is not an integral part of the MUD. We also tell them that there are many fine MUDs out there that do focus on roleplay and direct them here, TMC, etc. There is no implication of what is right or better, just differences in style.

It has been a while since I did this, but I used to hang out on RPMuds from time to time. Newbies who appeared new to MUDs and were probably looking for a more hack and slash environment were often derided and looked down on. Either that or they were told to learn to roleplay and they'd like it eventually. No idea what happened to those folks, but if they were new to MUDs they might not be aware of the huge range in styles of MUD, decided it wasn't what they wanted, and gone back to WoW or whatever. The same applies to "Hardcore PK" vs non-PK.

If we get a new player on our MUDs who is clearly not going to be a good fit for the style, instead of ridiculing them let's direct them to a place they can find a mud they do like. Nobody loses, it keeps them in the niche and as tastes change over time, they may just find your own MUD a better fit in the future.

I am jumping in on this thread a bit late, so please forgive me if I've missed something (which I probably have). It's also filled with a lot of my opinions and observations, so don't twist my words as me stating fact. They are merely observed trends.


I agree, to some level, that what your suggesting is a better alternative to simply rebating new players about roleplay; however, there are some problems with it that make it a little unfeasible to expect out of every (or even most) MUDs.

First off, more MUDs would need to cooperate, and that's just not going to happen. In my own personal experience, we've fought for so long against each other that we just don't give a damn about anyone but ourselves and our own interests. We are not willing to cooperate with other games of any genre, generally speaking. Administrators or PR staff would have to become more familiar with games outside of their own private little circle, to provide the best alternatives to new players, and we'd also have to actually start caring about what those players actually want.

The ignorant alternative to providing direct, personal insight is to direct a new player towards a directory website; however, there really aren't any out there that provide quality information and are easy to search. ((I am aware that there are plans out there for an objective, quality site, but the content will still be restricted to certain genres and its not yet up and running.)) TMS and the Mud Connector are not sufficient or appropriate, because these sites are mostly overrun by bigot fanaticals and hobbiests who just want to fight with someone or bend the truths about their own favorite games in the hopes of catching one more player. The search engines at these sites are both fairly weak, and the entries are out-of-date, easily falsified, or are misleading. In the long run, any newbie to MUDs who comes looking for a game is going to get tired very quickly of trying to find a game to play because of these weak interfaces. Some may even be put off by the community's overall 'aggressive' feel.

(( I am not trying to say that none of us puts forth the effort to be friendly -- I've seen a lot of helpful people here, but the bottom line is that it often gets lost in the immature trash that bubbles up on these forums. ))

Lastly, there is an issue with presentation; it's sometimes friendlier to suggest to a player that they should learn to RP -- if done correctly, its easier not to send the wrong message this way. By out-right suggesting other games, it tells a new player that we don't want them on our game (of course, we probably don't, especially if they are adamant about spoiling the environment), that we are elitist, and that other MUDs have smiliar environments. I'm not saying that everyone is going to treat their new misfit players this way, but because most games are staffed by volunteers and (let's face it) amateurs, very few games have any PR individuals who possess good tact or know how to handle a funky situation.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #218
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I've never really noticed a substantial difference between 'role playing allowed' and 'role playing encouraged' in TMC listings, they all seem hack and slash muds. I'd go as far as to say Godwars II makes a better roleplaying environment than 95% of the roleplaying encouraged muds out there.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:15 AM   #219
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Lasher View Post
If we get a new player on our MUDs who is clearly not going to be a good fit for the style, instead of ridiculing them let's direct them to a place they can find a mud they do like. Nobody loses, it keeps them in the niche and as tastes change over time, they may just find your own MUD a better fit in the future.
Very well put. I try to do the same. The beauty of our MUD community is the variety. Different people have different ideas of what is fun. Some have several ideas and play several styles of MUDs.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:41 AM   #220
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Name: NewWorlds
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Posts: 1,384
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Parhelion View Post
First off, more MUDs would need to cooperate, and that's just not going to happen. In my own personal experience, we've fought for so long against each other that we just don't give a damn about anyone but ourselves and our own interests. We are not willing to cooperate with other games of any genre, generally speaking. Administrators or PR staff would have to become more familiar with games outside of their own private little circle, to provide the best alternatives to new players, and we'd also have to actually start caring about what those players actually want.
That's too bad that you have this attitude. I can tell you that NW's staff make an effort to get to know different MUDs and we constantly will recommend and support other formats and games. Usually the one's we have played and enjoy and hopefully have something unique to offer.

On that same token, those that are negative and isolationists, we are happy to not recommend and/or warn against.
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