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Old 01-07-2009, 12:12 PM   #121
Delerak
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Milawe View Post
There is no "against Wikipedia". It's not a an entity. The entity of Wikipedia did not create this issue. Its guidelines and policies being used as a corporal sword +15 by a few was the problem. I absolutely don't regret asking MUDders for help, though I definitely didn't ask anyone to go participate in the AfD discussion. We did ask for them to look at it and suggest to us what we could do. This resulted in Wikipedia administrators who were acting in good faith coming to actually telling us what to do, how to do it, and started me down the path of learning the ins and outs of Wikipedia.
Did you honestly believe that wikipedia would be the perfect online encyclopedia? So you're saying it's unfair that the site has admins that don't care about your mud or your article? Really?

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If it's a pool of knowledge, then it doesn't hurt to have more knowledge. Whereas it does hurt to have less knowledge.
Pointless knowledge that only matters to a select few people that I can count on both of my hands doesn't count.

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You're making me giggle with the KB comment. You DO realize how cheap memory is now, right? You can get a terabyte of storage for $99. That's 1,073,741,824 KBs, so it's $0.000000092 for 1 KB of space. That's the whole reason that one of Wikipedia's policy is this
Of course I realize how cheap memory is, it was sarcasm. My point was that having an article on Threshold in wikipedia is as pointless as having it anywhere else. Muds have a small cult following of players and that's all they have. This is why it shouldn't matter what wikipedia does to the little articles similar to MUDs or anything else similar to them.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:15 PM   #122
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Thing to take from this for people who give a damn

- We need an independant MUD resource
- We need plenty of coverage of MUD's, independant reviews
- Drum up support and ask Magazines or official press to do reviews. Loads of them have Retro sections, and clearly there are MUD players at magazines such as TOTAL PC GAMING
- Won't happen because MUDs have too much of a cult following. People become biased to the MUDs they play.
- This won't happen either, the genre is too small and scattered. There are too many small time muds running and not enough people working together to do something like this.
- Good luck with this one.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:56 PM   #123
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Did you honestly believe that wikipedia would be the perfect online encyclopedia? So you're saying it's unfair that the site has admins that don't care about your mud or your article? Really?
Hmm. I think you may be arguing yourself in circles here. If they didn't care about our mud or our article, it would have very likely rested in its little corner of Wikipedia, left alone to rot along with things like polymorphism, Darkness Falls, and half a dozen muds I'm not going to name lest I help wiki-hatchet-warriors find them before their time. Also, if the admins didn't care, I somehow think it wouldn't have resulted in one of the longest AfDs in the history of Wikipedia, and the story has been picked up by people who have never once logged into Threshold. It seems like, perhaps, a lot of people care. Obviously, you don't care except to post about how much you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Pointless knowledge that only matters to a select few people that I can count on both of my hands doesn't count.
What big hands you have! You can't assume that other muds reflect your own user-base or generate the same interest that yours does. I definitely don't assume that our usage is the same as Aardwolf, Achaea, Medievia, Gemstone III, Discworld, or mushes and mucks that have userbases much bigger than ours.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Of course I realize how cheap memory is, it was sarcasm. My point was that having an article on Threshold in wikipedia is as pointless as having it anywhere else. Muds have a small cult following of players and that's all they have. This is why it shouldn't matter what wikipedia does to the little articles similar to MUDs or anything else similar to them.
I wonder if muds have a smaller cult following than say amigurumi, Long Shot, or Jem and the Misfits. Again, I don't think you should use the usage of your own mud to judge how big or small the genre is.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:22 PM   #124
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
- Won't happen because MUDs have too much of a cult following. People become biased to the MUDs they play.
I think that it's more likely that the project would face extreme difficulty due to warring admins (much like Wikipedia's editors) than players being biased to the MUDs they play. I know that I recently refused to be a part of a project that would have probably benefited our MUD financially because I was really wary of the person who was spearheading the project. The guy doesn't even have his own mud, just a reputation. Let me say, also, that this incident has been a learning experience for me as well, and I doubt I would have refused to be a part of that project after having gone through this. It makes me review my opinion of the guy that I once had pretty good discussions with, and we fell out when both our tempers started to fray on a subject we ultimately agree on.

In the end, though, this incident actually gives me a lot of hope that a project, if run correctly, divorced from having ties to any one particular mud, and done with the intent of providing an academic site (thus, not really treading on TMS or TMC's toes), can succeed. There were people involved in the KEEP side of the AfD that I'm pretty sure strongly dislike the lead developer and owner of Threshold and wouldn't pee on the mud's server if it was on fire to put it out, yet they put aside personal dislikes to participate in the issue. (This is not to say that the people who didn't participate in the AfD couldn't see through their dislikes. I understand that people have very different ideas about what should be on Wikipedia.) So if a serious historical project was created that needed very little help from mud admins for maintaining it, I think it could very well succeed despite all the strong personalities in the community.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:17 PM   #125
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Greetings. This is Donathin, from the wikipedia discussion on Threshold's entry - some of you will remember me as a past TMS user. Whatever the result of this is, I'd encourage you to continue to work on getting Treshold's entry improved and properly resourced. However, be careful of your tone on the Wikipedia site. I know how passionate we can get about our games, but we have to give respect if we wish to receive respect; you know the inclination of administrators in charge of online communities to shut down and not hear newbies (respectively) who vocally attack their product. This is not to say that anger cannot be justified here, only that I doubt it will be effective. The wiki page is safe on a user page where it can be independently improved and eventually re-stated, even should the current review turn out to support the motion to delete.

I can understand the frustration, but significant MUDs -do- have a place on wikipedia; they are a large part of the history of gaming, and Wikipedia is ideally meant to accumulate knowledge of such niche topics. Wikipedia is not meant to be shallow, but they do desire it to be of high quality. I see no reason that Threshold cannot obtain that, if heads can be kept cool and continued work is done. Everything else is only an obstacle, something I've learned from being an editor on Wikipedia myself.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:27 PM   #126
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Thanks, Donathain. It's very obvious that certain things don't fit into the Wiki culture, and I think Threshold's already taking steps to adjust his writing style. Appreciate the help, though, because it is a culture that is steeped in some very interesting protocol. It's pretty hard to navigate around if you don't have help. (Or at least it is for me.)

Anyway, thanks again for the tips and the warning.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:45 AM   #127
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
What's even worse is now that the article is deleted, there's no record of the reversion wars by the admins that led to it. So they can now run around claiming it was always just a tiny little stub of an article and there's no proof unless someone screen cap'd the pages ( I didn't ).

The only record remaining is a mess of an AfD discussion which as far as I could see didn't even run it's entire course.
Other admins can see it. I guess you could say we have a permanent recycle bin.
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:10 AM   #128
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Slightly tongue in cheek here, but I'm assuming with all of this there's no WP:COMMONBLOODYSENSE.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:35 PM   #129
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Neurolysis View Post
Other admins can see it. I guess you could say we have a permanent recycle bin.
You'll excuse me while I proceed to laugh my ass off. [steps away]

OK, done. Thanks for brightening up my day with that bit of silliness.

Other admins being able to see it means nothing to the rest of us. It's the same as if I and the other admins on MudBytes depublished several high profile posts and then went around making claims about how they weren't appropriate to the forum because of the replies they got. People would rightly claim there's no proof of any of it unless the audit trail is visible to all.

You've done the same. Delisted an article. It's sitting in an admins-only bin somewhere. You guys can point to it and claim X is a sockputted of Y's meatpuppet for Z all day long and cite bogus edits as your reasoning but nobody can back that up now because of it all being swept under the rug and hidden from view.

I think it's even further ridiculous that when caught exercising improper action, the fallback is now WP:IAR ( Ignore all rules ) which seems like an awfully convenient get out of jail free card for the elitests in charge.
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:27 PM   #130
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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I'm saying that proving canvassing via IRC is impossible because the logs are private and even if you participated in the conversation, you would need to use not just your posts, but the posts of other people. Per RfArb/Durova, you would need permission from all parties who participated, and to use them you'd've had to c&p them locally. You are allowed to be reasonably suspicious of irc invites, but unless you have the chat logs and permission from all involved, you cannot say that canvassing was taking place via IRC. -JÚskÚ Couriano
Oh how the irony and corruption continue to grow! Yes, explain to the world how to hide future canvassing by sitting in an IRC channel and invoke copyright on the conversation and deny permission for the logs to be used as evidence. Brilliant.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:13 PM   #131
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Dr. McCoy: "He's dead Jim!"
Capt. Kirk: "No, Bones, he's not. Wikipedia says you're not a reliable source."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

That's awesome.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:22 PM   #132
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

IRC... private??? ROFL WOOOOW. That's funny. Now where was this stated?
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:05 PM   #133
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Wikipediaeletion review/Log/2009 January 7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buried about 60% of the way down the page. Just hunt for stuff in the quoted text, it'll show. Apparently it's all based on some "incident" they had in 2007 about someone using IRC logs as evidence in some dispute. Naturally of course people objected. I mean, they need SOMEWHERE to hide, right?

And yes, the ridiculousness of IRC being private was why I laughed my ass off about it. Until I realized they're being dead serious about it being private and copyrighted and all that. Now I'm just dumbfoudned by it.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:41 PM   #134
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Do you have a hammer? I have a strong urge to bludgeon myself after reading such stupidity. IRC not available to public? Hmm try telling that to the channel I sit in that's on the same server as #wikipedia-en
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:23 PM   #135
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Well, he's not saying it's private exactly, because that would make it even worse canvassing than it was. He's saying that we're not allowed to post logs on Wikipedia because IRC owns the copyright to all those logs. Technically, I guess TMS owns the copyrights to our posts (I'll be honest and say I don't remember the ToS of the site), but it's an open forum. I guess Lasher could technically ask those guys on Wikipedia to remove quotes from this forum seeing as they're "copyrighted" by TMS as well. Who knows!
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:31 PM   #136
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

We really cannot expect logic from those people.

The idea that an OPEN process viewable to all is more suspect that secret, closed door meetings is absurd. Nobody in their right mind would agree with that. I try to take comfort in knowing they have to be absolutely dishonest and violate their own policies and principles in order to get their way.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:57 PM   #137
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
We really cannot expect logic from those people.
I should say MOST of those people. There have been a few that truly embodied the oft-quoted, rarely followed WP:GOODFAITH. Neurolysis, J.delanoy, Protonk, LinaMisha, and a few other of the "hard core" Wikipedia folks seem to legitimately want to do what is best.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:19 PM   #138
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I've just reviewed this thread and the original post and am baffled by the moronics. One reason why I hate Wikipedia. It's like a free for all and most information there is suspect. I really hate when people quote it as fact. It is turning more into a STAR or National Inquirer than a true site of information.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:00 PM   #139
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Hm, Threshold is pulled, but there's games not even released... with entries?
Darkfall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's full of 'publicity' type wording 'a huge dynamic world' - whose huge are we talking about?
'The Alfar are the cruel, hate-spawned cousins of the Mirdain'... etc, it's a giant advertisement for an online game that hasn't even been released yet.

I like also how 'scrib' pages are considered a valid source... Um, I can post my own scrib pages as sources if I wish...

They do have lots of references from other sources, I'll give it that, just surprising that they're already considered 'noteworthy' vs a game that was/is around for ages.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:47 PM   #140
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I've just reviewed this thread and the original post and am baffled by the moronics. One reason why I hate Wikipedia. It's like a free for all and most information there is suspect. I really hate when people quote it as fact.
But isn't that one reason Threshold's entry was removed? Among other things, they felt they couldn't trust the sources of info that Threshold's entry pointed to. In other words, they're trying to make the information on Wikipedia less suspect (at least the ones that mean well are).

--matt
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