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Old 06-20-2009, 03:51 PM   #21
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

This is something Locke does every year about this time. Shows up on forums and demands credit for code he can't prove he even wrote, much less deserves credit for. The Isles OLC is his, but only people using that codebase, NiMud, or some version of ILAB could even be argued to be covered by his license.

But therein lies the problem. The code that was released got that way WITHOUT A LICENSE. There's no possible way anyone using it could have any idea who wrote it. Even the text of the ILAB distribution itself says The Isles OLC was released into the public domain - which means anyone can use it any way they see fit.

His claims that he is owed credit for any other OLC are patently absurd, he's demanding it if all you have is an OLC with the command name "redit" for instance. Well I have news, the partially complete OLC we had access to on Crystal Shard contained a command named redit, and the original implementors of the MUD said it had been in place since their initial launch. Which was in 1992 - before Locke decided to try and claim credit for having invented all this. I wouldn't doubt it if his initial efforts actually stemmed from the same source and he simply stripped those credits off like he's done to the Diku/Merc credits.
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Old 06-20-2009, 05:51 PM   #22
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Locke,

I type faster than you.

Just so you know.
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Old 06-21-2009, 02:32 AM   #23
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Would you all please stop insulting this man's intelligence.

He ponders super massive blackholes and singularity. I want to totally go over the event horizon with this guy and just die in a black hole to see what it's like.
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Old 06-21-2009, 03:10 AM   #24
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
But therein lies the problem. The code that was released got that way WITHOUT A LICENSE. There's no possible way anyone using it could have any idea who wrote it. Even the text of the ILAB distribution itself says The Isles OLC was released into the public domain - which means anyone can use it any way they see fit.
I was the co-author of The Isles OLC. It's not in the public domain, it's copyrighted to me and my friend, Chris Woodward. Jason Dinkel is not my representative, he cannot speak for me.
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Old 06-21-2009, 03:36 AM   #25
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Then I would suggest you take this up with Jason Dinkel and not with everyone else who either isn't using your code, or used it with the innocent expectation that the license it *DID* carry was accurate.

Either way, retroactively applying a license that lacks a clause allowing for that to happen would not survive a court challenge. This is something I specifically asked the company IP lawyer once when a similar situation came up with one of my own projects and I was advised in no uncertain terms that the only way a license can be retroactively applied is if it originally came with a clause stating so, like you find in various ToS agreements with ISPs. Your code has no such clause, ergo it is not possible to retroactively apply the license to existing users. Only to new users from this point forward.
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Old 06-21-2009, 03:03 PM   #26
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Then I would suggest you take this up with Jason Dinkel and not with everyone else who either isn't using your code, or used it with the innocent expectation that the license it *DID* carry was accurate.

Either way, retroactively applying a license that lacks a clause allowing for that to happen would not survive a court challenge. This is something I specifically asked the company IP lawyer once when a similar situation came up with one of my own projects and I was advised in no uncertain terms that the only way a license can be retroactively applied is if it originally came with a clause stating so, like you find in various ToS agreements with ISPs. Your code has no such clause, ergo it is not possible to retroactively apply the license to existing users. Only to new users from this point forward.
In a world where sex offenders get 1 year in jail for sodomizing 4 year olds, anything is possible. I doubt your amateur legal opinion has any real significance.
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Old 06-21-2009, 06:59 PM   #27
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by Parhelion View Post
I'm not sure what sort of discussion was hoped to be garnered from this post.

A reminder like this should have probably been sent privately to MUD owners suspected of using the code, if there are indeed any rights attached to it. This would have, at the least, showed an intent to pursue and enforce the matter.

I am assuming Locke is intending to pursue the matter, yes?

If not, you're just throwing dust to the wind. As someone planning on entering the software industry myself, AND as someone who cherishes the idea of supporting their community, I understand the concerns behind wanting to protect your work. Unfortunately, -this- particularly community is not made up of professionals or even well-intentioned hobbyists. While I have come to know some VERY professional and trustworthy people here, there are just so many people here that couldn't give a rat's ass about your rights... assuming you do indeed have any to begin with. This is especially true if you can't even earn enough respect from your fellow MUD admin because you've got a cyber-persona that is.... well, not very likeable to begin with.
Well said.
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Old 06-21-2009, 08:20 PM   #28
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by locke View Post
In a world where sex offenders get 1 year in jail for sodomizing 4 year olds, anything is possible. I doubt your amateur legal opinion has any real significance.
The reverse is also true and your "amateur legal opinion" is equally worthless. However, his opinion happens to agree with the law. Your's does not.
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Old 06-21-2009, 08:23 PM   #29
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Whereas I dont know much about the codebase in question, I was going to ask why the big deal about slipping a mention or two into a games credits if there was a chance that the authors code could have been used....

...then I soon realised what an obnoxious person Locke apparently was and lost interest in showing support...
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:39 AM   #30
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
In a world where sex offenders get 1 year in jail for sodomizing 4 year olds, anything is possible. I doubt your amateur legal opinion has any real significance.
Mine may not have any real significance, but the company IP lawyer's does and apparently he got curious enough to have even come by for a look this weekend because I got an email from him more or less saying you'd lose and lose badly in court by trying to assert license control over a work that you yourself are violating. So much so he even wished it had been our IP so he could get started on the lawsuit tomorrow morning
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:50 AM   #31
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

This thread has it all: Black holes, legal arguments, child sodomy. What else can you ask for?!
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:58 PM   #32
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Mine may not have any real significance, but the company IP lawyer's does and apparently he got curious enough to have even come by for a look this weekend because I got an email from him more or less saying you'd lose and lose badly in court by trying to assert license control over a work that you yourself are violating. So much so he even wished it had been our IP so he could get started on the lawsuit tomorrow morning
I'm amazed at the quality of fiction you are producing, but maybe it's better suited to a creative writing forum?
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:18 PM   #33
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

According to Stanford.edu

"Transfers of copyright ownership are unique in one respect. Authors or their heirs have the right to terminate any transfer of copyright ownership 35 to 40 years after it is made."
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:21 PM   #34
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
It looked to me like a polite reminder to whoever admins a game utilizing that code, to make sure the appropriate credits are included. And it looked like he took the time to tell the admins exactly what the appropriate credits are, rather than asking them to look it up themselves.
Thanks. That was what I was doing.

Last edited by locke : 06-22-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:30 PM   #35
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
According to Stanford.edu

"Transfers of copyright ownership are unique in one respect. Authors or their heirs have the right to terminate any transfer of copyright ownership 35 to 40 years after it is made."
Terminate does not mean modify and that little quote refers to a transfer of ownership, not terms of use. Unless you were planning on transferring ownership of something you held copyright on to someone else, you're quoting something that's irrelevant to the discussion.

For all of your claims, you're really not very bright, are you? Or are you that desperate to not concede that you're wrong? Or is it both?

For what it's worth, I don't think you're being deliberately deceitful. I just think you're an idiot.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:46 PM   #36
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
Terminate does not mean modify and that little quote refers to a transfer of ownership, not terms of use. Unless you were planning on transferring ownership of something you held copyright on to someone else, you're quoting something that's irrelevant to the discussion.

For all of your claims, you're really not very bright, are you? Or are you that desperate to not concede that you're wrong? Or is it both?

For what it's worth, I don't think you're being deliberately deceitful. I just think you're an idiot.

Ok, dude............
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:08 PM   #37
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by locke View Post
According to Stanford.edu

"Transfers of copyright ownership are unique in one respect. Authors or their heirs have the right to terminate any transfer of copyright ownership 35 to 40 years after it is made."
Maybe I misunderstood.

To whom did you transfer ownership of your IP?

I thought you just released it with a license.
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:23 AM   #38
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
I'm amazed at the quality of fiction you are producing, but maybe it's better suited to a creative writing forum?
You're the most qualified person here to comment on what's fiction and what's reality given you're an obvious master of fiction considering you're laying claim to something you can't even prove you wrote, much less that other people are using.

And since you don't even know the difference between a transfer of copyright and a license to use, are you sure you should even be commenting on it? Or are you backhandedly trying to tell us you transferred your copyright to Jason Dinkel? Because if you did, you have no legal rights here at all.
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Old 06-23-2009, 01:53 AM   #39
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

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Originally Posted by WarHound View Post
This thread has it all: Black holes, legal arguments, child sodomy. What else can you ask for?!
No one's called anyone else a Nazi yet. I'm waiting with bated breath.
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Old 06-23-2009, 01:56 AM   #40
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Re: Compliance reminder if your MUD uses OLC

Well, to Envy, ROM, Jason Dinkel (sort of), and anyone uses the software. I have not defined a EULA, but I have defined a license, for the end-user if you consider the administrator the end-user, which stipulates the terms of an agreement. To use my software is to agree to my license. In a way, players/builders are also under a license. Licenses are owned and provided by the copyright owner, who is given the right to change his or her mind, the license, etc., at least within the provided 35-40 year range. In this case I am changing the contract by revoking it and issuing a new license. A license is a form of contract, but is considered technically a legal instrument.
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