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Old 06-13-2003, 07:09 AM   #221
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Quote:
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You apparently believe otherwise, but why would I care about what you think? You are not a lawyer, you are not the copyright holder, you are not the FBI, you are just stating your opinion - (and doing it in a very rude way, I might add). So what makes your opinion more worth than mine?
Sorry Molly! Did not mean to offend you or flame you. I wrote it badly, i'm no good english writer and thats the number one reason to why i do not create areas at all .

I did not mean to personally compare YOU to a drug dealer I was just meaning to refer to the policy of being sort of ignorant... It was not meant at you personally, but at all people that have the same policy "if they confront me, sure i will remove it, shut it down" etc (which have been many in this thread).

And my opinion is not worth more than anyone elses

Well, anyways, consider that someone want to create a commercial MUD off some existing theme. Now this could be a tolkien based mud, star wars mud or any other common theme. Perhaps THE dungeons and dragons mud.

Now, that person goes off to the copyright holders, gets himself/herself exclusive rights to create the MUD with that theme, and pays some serious money to do so.

Here you can see immediately that every mud using tolkien and star wars have HURT the copyright holders seriously since the newly created game will have A LOT less potential players, since they are already playing these kind of game (that have no rights to use the material). No one will probably ever bother to so because people have abused the #### out of all those themes and are running illegal games that harm the copyright holders.

Now this is just comparing muds to muds, since people don't think a normal game would be harmed by the presence of a mud (oddly). What makes a mud any different than any other game. I tend to think that if "Shadows of Isildur" (since the thread is about them) had a more graphical user interface, like in a real MMORPG ala everquest, still non-commercial, still same policy as the mud, people would not have accepted their anauthorized use of tolkien material. Is the step between text and graphics really a border line between being able to abuse copyrights and not...?

In my opinion, the mud community should be cleaned up from all these "illegal" games Maybe not contact the tolkien enterprise... and contact the actual commercial games having tolkien theme and get them to send the unauthorized tolkien muds a request to shutdown, since it harms their business.

Unauthorized tolkien muds are definately hurting the business of the upcoming "Middle-Earth Online" game. Party in the shire screenshot
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Old 06-13-2003, 01:13 PM   #222
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Okay, Hephos, apology accepted. I am Swedish myself, so I know first hand what language problems can cause.

However, you also seem to have somewhat missed my point. You said this:
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Well... So the copyright holder needs to approach you formally and demand things, for you to not rip off their work?
But, as I also stated in the post, I am guided by rules of ethics and moral, rather than law, since the law can be twisted in so many ways by tricky lawyers. If I thought something was ethically ot morally wrong with using any zones in our mud, I wouldn't need  the copyright holder to demand that I take them out. I'd do so on my own accord. I even think I mentioned a couple of examples of doing just that in the past.

I agree that things may be quite a bit different with muds based totally on a book or film, especially if they are commercial. But, like I already stated, this thread hasn't made me much wiser. I don't know enough about the law to be very certain in either direction. and neither it seems does anyone else in this thread, even though some of them act like they do.

Also, Muds are quite a bit different from graphic games, they attract a different type of players. So I doubt a  graphic Tolkien Mud would lose any significant amount of players to the existing muds out there.

But then again. that's just MY opinion.
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Old 06-13-2003, 01:29 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ June 12 2003,18:58)
f you cannot see the difference between using a few names from a commonly known book or film in a mud, and ripping off an entire codebase, zone - or book - and presenting it as your own work... then either your intelligence must be very limited, or you may have some ulterior motive for just picking a fight.
And if you cannot see the difference between ripping off IP of almost no value (stock areas in DIKU, for instance) and ripping off IP worth hundreds of millions of dollars, I question either your sanity or your desire to do anything but justify, however possible, ripping off that IP.

--matt
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Old 06-13-2003, 01:32 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ June 13 2003,12:13)
Also, Muds are quite a bit different from graphic games, they attract a different type of players. So I doubt a graphic Tolkien Mud would lose any significant amount of players to the existing muds out there.
Everquest, UO, etc etc are all muds. They're just graphical muds. And an informal poll on our text muds showed that more than half the people also play or have played graphical muds.

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Old 06-13-2003, 05:52 PM   #225
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I must say that I am very disappointed with you Molly. I was happily pottering about my holo-pad, in the year of no lord 2035, when I decided to take my first trip of nostalgia into the past. Without further ado I stepped upon my newly invented beam of light cell projector, copyright Mc Beam Technologies formerly Mc Donalds – our food tastes more like cardboard than our packaging.

Upon arrival, gasp, shock, horror, what do I find? A fantastic MUD that is identical to the one I have just finished creating. It can’t possibly be the case that my mud was copied from yours because the Mc Frothy Milkshake explosion of 2020 destroyed all past records. I can only assume that someone attached to the MUD journeyed into the future and stole my work, thus making illegal use of my IP. My Mc Money is on that deviant Soulstar and his Sicilian upstarts. I have consulted with my lawyers and you have been tried in your absence. The guilty verdict requires you to eat, without the addition of self-applied flavourings, 2 Mc Burgers and one portion of Mc Fries.  

On a separate note, my second trip took me to the region of Achaea. A lot of people where aghast to hear that the name of their beloved region is being used without their permission. As I left I saw a group of warriors gathering swords and shields and writing a missive to someone called Archemedies, requesting a big catapult to hurl them through time. By all accounts they are intent on some rigorous disembowelling activities, rowdy bunch.  

--------------------
Now I have to go and serve the graphical Tolkein game with a legal summon for Illegal Pumpkin use, those things are dangerous when used by little people with no adult supervision.
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Old 06-13-2003, 06:33 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ June 13 2003,12:13)
Also, Muds are quite a bit different from graphic games, they attract a different type of players. So I doubt a graphic Tolkien Mud would lose any significant amount of players to the existing muds out there.
I was introduced to MUDs by graphical game players, and I myself come from a background of Console RPGs and fighting games, and now enjoy text based MUDs more than any other type of game (having played Diablo, EQ, Ultima Online and enjoyed them as well). Conversation on my MUD often includes other graphical as well as text games... I think this assumption is , respectfully, very far off the mark.

However, what I would say is that a RP-oriented game like Shadows of Isilidur wouldn't cut into the profits of MEO, but there is at least one Tolkien based MUD with a player base of 1000+ players that I think would be more than a little relevant in that respect...

In the end, though I do agree with Logos that it should be up to the copyright holder , I am far more sympathetic to builders/coders in your position than people that make a game completely based off of someone else's IP.
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Old 06-13-2003, 08:08 PM   #227
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And if you cannot see the difference between ripping off IP of almost no value (stock areas in DIKU, for instance) and ripping off IP worth hundreds of millions of dollars, I question either your sanity or your desire to do anything but justify, however possible, ripping off that IP.
Actually I DON'T see any difference, from an ethical point of view. Using the same logic you could also claim that robbing a millionaire would be a bigger crime than doing the same to a beggar.

I don't share your definition about what constitutes  'ripping off' either, but that may be a semantic problem, so let's not dwell on it.

As for your final insult; If that were my 'desire', then why would I post about it on a discussion board, drawing as much attention as possible to my 'vile crimes'?

I guess I am not as obsessed with profit as you seem to be.
That appears to be what mainly worries you in this matter.
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Old 06-14-2003, 06:33 PM   #228
 
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ June 12 2003,18:58)
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Tyche:
Completely illogical.  Tell me why Diku mud code and zones (or yours or mine) should enjoy greater copyright protection than Tolkien's LOTR or StarWars?  What's to stop me from saying Diku or your mud and zones are now part of the common cultural inheritence and appropriating them?  What makes you think it is right to do that to another author yet you think it's wrong for someone to do to you?
If you cannot see the difference between using a few names from a commonly known book or film in a mud, and ripping off an entire codebase, zone - or book - and presenting it as your own work...
Tough questions weren't they?  Surely there are differences between petty theft, grand theft, and armed robbery.  As was pointed out if one were to measure the degree of theft by the value of the property, then stealing areas from your mud ranks about the level of shoplifting gum.  Clearly you're using a different measure in assigning value.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ June 12 2003,18:58)
...then either your intelligence must be very limited, or you may have some ulterior motive for just picking a fight.
I've already warned earlier on this thread for using conspiracy theories as arguments.  My motive for disagreeing with you is that you are just plain wrong.  As I pointed out, your previous post totally ignored the distinctions being public domain and copyrighted material.  Instead of making a smartass remark about your intelligence, I'll just put it down to ignorance.
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Old 06-16-2003, 12:42 PM   #229
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First off, there is no difference between stealing intellectual property of lesser or greater value. In real life, if you steal a candy bar, you're still stealing. Though the penalties for shoplifting a candy bar are smaller than the penalties for shoplifting a $5,000 diamond ring, it is STILL ILLEGAL.

Now I think we're off the point. The point is that the_logos feels that the admin of SoI has infringed on the rights of the Tolkien empire.

In defense, a post was made stating how the administrators of the MUD attempted gain official right to operate with the content based upon Tolkien's work.

Now it is a matter of assumption, not criminal activity. The admin of SoI is assuming they'll be allowed to continue on with the Tolkien Empire's permission, thus they are developing and continuing on as they would if they had permission. This is done frequently in the world of media.

Since this is a 'Legal Discussion' and not a 'Personal Opinion' discussion, I don't see why it arrived to this point. Until Tolkien takes legal action against or grants permission to the administrators of SoI, the choice wether or not to display ads for or allow listings of SoI is soley up to the administrators of those sites in question.

Since I know people will post replies trying to invalidate my points, I encourage you to also post references so I may read about how my points are invalid. I do enjoy learning new things, and if I am indeed wrong, I will admit so only after proof is provided.

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Old 06-23-2003, 03:27 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Xorith @ June 16 2003,11:42)
Until Tolkien takes legal action against or grants permission to the administrators of SoI, the choice wether or not to display ads for or allow listings of SoI is soley up to the administrators of those sites in question.
Sure it is up to the adminstrators of that site. But does that make it right and lawful? I don't know.

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Old 07-03-2003, 09:05 AM   #231
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First off let me say i think this argument is ridiculous.Every fantasy novel ever written has been based on Tolkien's works,dungeons and dragons,wheel of time,the list goes on and on and the basis for Tolkien's work is popular mythology Tolkien no more created elves than he did dwarves or humans.you wont find mentin of hobbits in any book other than Tolkien's but you do find numerous mentions of halflings so i guess we should round all the authors of every fantasy book weve ever read and put them all on trial for borrowing others ideas and adapting them to suit their stories.
i would imagine that the designers of middle earth online had a pretty easy time of convincing tolkiens estate of the marketin potential of that game by showing them the number of tolkien based muds that are out there thus making their job alot easier.
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:45 PM   #232
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Every fantasy novel ever written has been based on Tolkien's works
A common misconception - Tolkien actually drew inspiration from earlier fantasy authors such as George MacDonald, William Morris and Lord Dunsany. However the discussion was not about inspired work, but fan fiction.
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:06 AM   #233
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if you dont think fan fiction is inspired work you should read more often,there are some truly talented writers out there in the realm of fanfiction and like they say imitation is the greatest form of flattery
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:11 AM   #234
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i also should have qualified my statement about every fantasy writer borrowing from Tolkien's works, i intended to say everY modern fantasy writer.the whole point of my post is that it all builds on traditions and myths that have been lost to antiquity.
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:56 AM   #235
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if you dont think fan fiction is inspired work you should read more often,
I read plenty, but you're still missing the point. Fan fiction is a form of inspired work, but inspired work is not necessarily fan fiction. Almost all authors, including Tolkien, drew ideas and inspiration from fantasy authors before them - and legally speaking there is nothing wrong with that. Fan Fiction, however, is the production of fiction based upon somebody else's work, and technically is almost always a breach of copyright.

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i also should have qualified my statement about every fantasy writer borrowing from Tolkien's works, i intended to say everY modern fantasy writer
Why just Tolkien? What makes you think they didn't draw upon the same inspiration as Tolkien did? Or maybe they took ideas from more recent novels (eg Terry Goodkind and Robert Jordan)? I just find it strange why you would draw the line at Tolkien, when (for example) one of his favourite childhood books was a fantasy novel written 20 years before he was born.
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Old 07-04-2003, 09:08 AM   #236
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My goodness, 24 pages of this...

A few remarks:

Firt, regarding Matt's Nickame, "Logos" or "ho Logos" might be public domain in the same way "Apple" or "Computer" are.

Chances are that "The Logos" is a trademark infringement in the same way an unsername "Apple Computer" would be.

So, Matt, have you checked with The Logos (the band) and the The Logos companies whether you have the right to use that username?

According to your both legal and ethical standards, if the answer is no, you are a thief and should immediately change your Nickname until you do obtain permission.

Second, as has been pointed out several times already, talk is cheap.

It's been one month since Matt has flamboyantly claimed that he would contact TE himself. I think it is quite reasonable to assume that TE is now doubly aware of SoI's violations, so you'd be wise to let them, who have the means to do so, pursue the matter themselves.

Third, "elves" are neither copyrighted nor trademarked by Tolkien. So if someone writes about sex-crazy elves, he's not violating anyones rights. When using stupid examples like this, it is generally a good idea to make sure they apply to the subject discussed.

Fourth, however, I'd like to point out that all the legal arguments made to support the fact that SoI has a line of defense because TE has ignored the MUDs' violation for two decades will agressively pursuing other types of infringement applies to Medieva as well, much to my personal chagrin.
Indeed, the Diku team has demonstrated a willingness to pursue a case of alleged copyright violation - while chosing to ignore all others. That was the Diku vs. Everquest drama which unfolded a few (4? 5? Too lazy to look up) years ago.

Bottomline: both TE and the Diku teams have the means to take action themselves againt copyright violators - yet they choose not to do it in the case of quite a lot of MUDs. I suggest that the righteous crusaders, if they are absolutely unable to mind their own business as they should, conduct it directly with the interested parties and not through a proxy war on any number of message boards.
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Old 07-04-2003, 10:18 AM   #237
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Fourth, however, I'd like to point out that all the legal arguments made to support the fact that SoI has a line of defense because TE has ignored the MUDs' violation for two decades will agressively pursuing other types of infringement applies to Medieva as well, much to my personal chagrin.
No, they do not. I've already covered this point repeatedly. The two issues are completely different. Please have the courtesy to read the posts before posting - yes, I know there's a lot of them, but it's not fair to expect everyone else to keep posting the same points for those who didn't bother to read them the first time.

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I suggest that the righteous crusaders, if they are absolutely unable to mind their own business as they should, conduct it directly with the interested parties and not through a proxy war on any number of message boards.
The violation of mud licenses is my business - and indeed that of anyone who contributes into (or cares about) the mud community.
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Old 07-04-2003, 10:33 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ July 04 2003,15:18)
Please have the courtesy to read the posts before posting - yes, I know there's a lot of them, but it's not fair to expect everyone else to keep posting the same points for those who didn't bother to read them the first time.



The violation of mud licenses is my business - and indeed that of anyone who contributes into (or cares about) the mud community.
I did. I confess I might have skimmed through some of them and missed it.

However, I am pretty sure you never made the case how, DIKU actually HAVING decided to actively pursue the EverQuest matter while letting slide all others is different from TE HAVING pursued some type of violations while ignoring others, as far as the "defense line" of respectively SoI and Med was concerned.

Yes, you talked about Diku's _wishes_. We all know of them. The EQ matter also demonstrated that they were perfectly willing to take action themselves against an alleged and commercial infrigement. Again, I ask, how is that different from the Tolkien case?

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The violation of mud licenses is my business - and indeed that of anyone who contributes into (or cares about) the mud community.
Until further notice, I seem to remember that your modus operandi was to ask questions first, then act. It appears you weren't really concerned by my statement...
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Old 07-04-2003, 10:42 AM   #239
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Chances are that "The Logos" is a trademark infringement in the same way an unsername "Apple Computer" would be.
Actually no. A trademark is only protected within the trade for which it is registered. This is what makes it possbile for a band to be named "The Logos" while there exist companies of the same name.

Also, generic words or terms cannot be trademarked. This is why you see Windows® instead of Windows™. Microsoft was denied a trademark on the word Windows due to the fact that it is a single, generic word (though the ® serves as a notice that they will probably vigorously defend their exclusive use of the word in the relevant industry anyway (probably by charging you with fraud or something similar)). Not all company names are trademarked, and in some cases of those whose names are followed by a ™, the trademark only applies to the graphical presentation of the name and not the words themselves.

The Logos contains only generic words presented in a form that is consistent with the standard usage for those words. Apple Computer would stand a better chance at getting a trademark because the juxtaposition of "Apple" and "Computer" is not found in common usage except in reference to that particular company.

Even if a company named The Logos was somehow granted a trademark on that name, it would probably be invalidated if ever competently contested in court. Even if it was upheld, it would need to be given in the industry covering forum posts to affect MM here. So far I cannot find a company named The Logos that marks their name as a trademark that is in the computing/electronics industry.

Also, since the degree of protection granted varies based on how well-known your trade mark is and how likely it is that your use of the mark is diluting the brand recognition value of the mark (in this case, not bloody likely), I'd feel confident in stating that MM is not violating any laws by using The Logos as his screen name here.

With regard to the main topic, the only thing that TE's lack of action against SoI even when notified affects is the potential damages awarded to them should they ever choose to litigate. It does not make it more or less legal. It is absolutely illegal. Period.

Do I have a problem with it? No, and neither does TE, apparently, but that's irrelevant with respect to the legality of SoI's actions. All it means is that while what SoI is doing is illegal, they probably will not be sued.
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Old 07-04-2003, 10:57 AM   #240
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However, I am pretty sure you never made the case how, DIKU actually HAVING decided to actively pursue the EverQuest matter while letting slide all others is different from TE HAVING pursued some type of violations while ignoring others, as far as the "defense line" of respectively SoI and Med was concerned.
Diku have persued others as well, including Medievia (Michael Seifert said to me in an email on 1st August 2000 "I have spent many hours having futile conversations with Mike"). They have made their intentions and wishes very clear to the public. What they've not done is actually take legal action - against anyone (no, not even EverQuest).

TE have repeatedly persued and taken legal action against many people. But they have ignored all muds completely, even when specifically informed of the situation, and haven't even so much as given their view on the situation.

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Until further notice, I seem to remember that your modus operandi was to ask questions first, then act.
Correct, but that doesn't mean it's not my business.
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