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Old 06-04-2003, 02:05 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Brody @ June 04 2003,13:46)
No specific case law exists to say either side is right or wrong when it comes to MUDs and intellectual property.
I'm not sure why you think MUDs are some special case of intellectual property. Lots of precedent exists in IP law, and what Traithe is doing is illegal, as he himself has admitted.

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Old 06-04-2003, 02:09 PM   #82
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Oy. Let it go. Or, if you're really so bent out of shape over this, you need to face a few important facts:

1) Free-to-the-public Tolkien games exist and have existed for longer than many users on this forum have been alive (or at least as long as they've been old enough to read Tolkien)
2) The Tolkien estate hasn't actively sought to shut down MUDs that pay homage to his works (although they certainly have pursued legal action against people who used Tolkien's property for commercial purposes, a la Gandalf the Wizard Clown)
3) Synozeer isn't likely to ban Shadows of Isildur or any other not-for-profit established-theme game - or refuse their advertising dollars.

So, with those facts on hand, I'm curious: Are you so devoted to this principle that you're willing to yank your own games off Top MUD Sites in protest? Because, if we're not all being swayed to your way of thinking, if nothing appears likely to change, that's the crossroads you arrive at. Either you betray your principles and join us as accessories to this so-called "theft," or you stick to 'em and abandon us to our virtual Sodom and Gomorrah.

Either way, I think the discussion has pretty much run its course.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:21 PM   #83
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*beats a dead horse*

I think there are indeed laws against it. MUDs aren't a part of the World Wide Web; but they are a part of the Internet, aren't they? Online use is currently protected by copyrights, just like all the other forms of publishment.

I agree that Traithe seems to have gone to more trouble than most. Then again, that means that if you can make a successful case against Traithe, then you don't need to go to the trouble of making separate cases for most of the others. In that way, it makes a lot of sense to attack Traithe's defense in specific if there is a reasonable chance showing that his defense is lacking. In any case, it seems his mud was used merely as an example, and it wouldn't make sense to switch examples in the middle of the discussion.

You seem to still be itching about the so-called ad hominem remarks. I didn't interpret them as such. To be ad hominem, the remark has be irrelevant and used as a premise. the_logos' remarks were relevant ("thief" in regards to "IP stealing," and "repulsive" in regards to the_logos' opinion on the morality issue). And they seemed to be used as conclusions, not premises. Granted, the word usage is somewhat strong, but they were a communication of how strongly the_logos felt about the subject, and thus rational usages.

Finally, even if the horse is out of the barn, it is still possible to put the horse back into the barn and then close the door. (One might well have said the same thing about Medievia, bringing back the validity of the_logos' point about a lack of consistency in our communal norms.) It is possible to convince any copyright violators to remove violations of Tolkein's copyright from public distribution until gaining permission. And it is even possible to use society to enforce an opinion on the morality of the subject to an extent, though that is not what I would suggest in the case of Traithe's MUD at this point in time. Finally, on a more positive side, it is possible that, in this discussion, evidence will be brought confirming Traithe's defense, thus opening the way for more Tolkein MUDs without heavy consciences.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:29 PM   #84
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On the subject of the implied license, I would think it to be quite clear. the_logos keeps using that stealing a TV argument, however that is not as 'end of the line' as he makes it sound. The owner of that TV has not allowed many other people to steal his TV in the first place, without taking action against them.

So, let's touch up his analogy and make it relevant to the issue at hand:

Original, irrelevant analogy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
So if I send you a letter asking if I can steal your tv, and don't get a reply, I should just assume the answer is that you don't mind me doing it?
Derivative, relevant analogy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
So, you let numerous people before me take your television set, and you took no action against them, not even a public statement of disdain for their actions. I decided that I wanted to take your television set as well, but because I'm a nice guy I even ventured to get your permission first! So I sent you a letter asking if I am allowed take your television set, but you didn't send a reply. Can I assume then, that you wouldn't mind me taking your television set as well, since if you did you would have told me no?
So, while that TV analogy was thoroughly entertaining, it is entirely irrelevant to the point. The Tolkien people have allowed 'violations' to go unhindered for well over a decade (from what I gathered here). Enough instances of those 'violations' have been noticed that a list has been made of the general outcome of the action Tolkien has taken AGAINST them, and found that they will tolerate said actions. Traithe attempted to gain permission and was not denied, though he was also not accepted.

If you couple all this information, I would think it to be quite obvious how someone could infer an implied license. Now, they could easily reject his implied license, and he'd not have a leg to stand on... but, he's also said if they do so he would take down the game.

Now, I'm not saying it should be considered a 'loss' of rights, however this is what Feist was talking about. Tolkien's people have ignored enough instances of usage of their property that it now grants an implied license to those wishing to use it. The fact that Traithe went so far as to send a letter asking permission only strengthens his case, I would think.

I don't necessarily AGREE that this is the case. But, for the legal stance I would venture that Traithe is not without a valid defense.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:35 PM   #85
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
People don't earn cars in a vaccuum either. Nobody compensates society for their cars. We compensate only the people who previously claimed to own exclusive right to those cars.
Society is compensated through this system of exclusive ownership. They pay for the parts, add value, and then sell the completed product. It is crystal clear what the individual owes and to whom, so we can easily say how society was compensated for their work. Don't be silly and assume that I meant all of society was compensated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
In any case, how would you go about compensating society for the money with which you are using to compensate society?
Come again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
Moreover, assuming that everyone owns equal parts in society and that society owns equal parts in each piece of IP (due to the difficulty of predicting actual value added by society), then there is still the fact that the most obvious creator of the IP has more claim to that IP than anyone else in society, because they own their equal societal part plus however much value they added personally.
That's correct, and I agree. The IP owner has a claim that is greater than any other specific individual's, but not the only claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
As a communal norm, we do not recognize something as protectable IP until and unless, by communal norm, the creator is seen to have added a sufficient amount of value so as to overwhelm the value added by the rest of society.
I disagree with this, though. If the creator had to overwhelm the value added by the rest of society, in the future it would be impossible for one to lay a claim of protectable IP since the intellectual foundations are increasing at an exponentional rate. But I don't even think the author needs to add something significantly valuable to lay his claim on his specific work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
Unless you have evidence to the contrary, we can assume that society gave the copyright holder no more benefits than the copyright holder gave every other individual of society in return simply by being a part of that society. Thus, the benefits added by society seem to be irrelevant to the discussion.
Wow, say that again? You said that the whole of society gave no more benefits to an individual than an individual gave to the whole of society. An individual with a contribution equal to that of an entire society is a worthy individual indeed, but Tolkien was certainly not such a superman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Burr @ June 04 2003,13:40)
By taking it away, you aren't necessarily taking the means of duplicating it, but you are taking away the benefits of having been the IP's creator, leaving the creator stuck with an unfair portion of the costs of the creation.
Does this argument apply to the topic at hand? Do you mean to say that a derivative work not expressly sanctioned by the creator removes enough of the benefits of the work that he is unfairly stuck with the costs of creation? This is the kind of explanation I'm looking for, thank you =).

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ foo)
Discussion about details of IP is impossible if people respond with questions like that. Its like trying to have a discussion about the scope of the 5th amendment and having someone walk up and say But do we need police and courts at all?.
You (and Burr, possibly) misunderstand my scope. I merely wish to know why Matt believes this is morally wrong as applied to the reasons why IP law exists, not have a discussion about the fundamentals of IP law. I say this because he said other laws he had no compelling reason to follow, and he has stated numerous times that Traithe's actions were immoral. I want to know why it is immoral, and saying "Because it's the law" just doesn't cut it given his previous statements.

Now Matt and Burr have given similar answers to my questions. Basically, they've said that it is unfair to create something only to have the benefits of IP control disappear. It causes "harm" (I would rather say that it causes a lack of benefit rather than harm, but we'll leave that debate to another day =)).

But what if it didn't cause any harm? What if Shadows of Isildur became popular, and the top players all went out and bought the novels and movies to complement their interest? We have this concept of complementary items in economics: If the demand of jelly goes up, for example, there might be a corresponding increase in demand for peanut butter so that people can make scrumptious sandwiches. How can you honestly say that the harm is always greater than the benefit?

That statement is underlined because it's important to my primary point. If the copyright holder were to expressly deny SoL, we can only assume that he has weighed the various circumstances and made a decision. I'm not arguing that this decision should be disregarded when it is made. Even if it were proven that SoL had a net benefit rather than a net harm to Tolkien's IP, I believe that the owner has the right to dig their own grave so to speak. But if they do not make an express decision, this is all still up in the air. Tolkien's IP may become more valuable because of this, not less, and so the moral imperative to stop infringement is simply not there because everybody is seemingly winning. It would be presumptuous of all of us to say that this specific case wrought a net benefit or harm. Therefore, I will err on the side of Traithe: Although it is presumptuous (and based completely on my anecdotal experience), I believe his work benefits Tolkien's IP more than it harms it. Ergo he is morally right in my eyes.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:55 PM   #86
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intellectual property, copyright and trademarks ...

you know, there's one thing in this discussion that bothers me ...

The Logos Group
The Logos Foundation
The Logos School
u.s.w...

you know, someone might want to desist from using the handle "the logos" until they can present written permission for the use of that name.
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:29 PM   #87
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Unifex:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You (and Burr, possibly) misunderstand my scope.
(snip)
But what if it didn't cause any harm?
(snip)
How can you honestly say that the harm is always greater than the benefit?
Easy answer: I don't have to, or have the right to. The person who gets to decide that is the IP holder, who decides to grant or not grant a license based on HIS decision about the benefits vs harm.

It's not up to me (or you, or us as a community) to make the decision that the owner of the IP benefits from a certain use of it, and that therefore it's ok to do. Yes, as you point out, the general rights granted the originator of an idea are arguably a social contract, but the application of these guidelines to individual instances are NOT.

Mikkel:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
you know, someone might want to desist from using the handle "the logos" until they can present written permission for the use of that name.
You DO know where the term "the logos" comes from, right? I don't think the originators are going to be filing claims...

If you're looking for something to complain about, how about the area in Achaea named "Aran'Rhiod" (put into the game around Jul, 2002, according to an announcement dated Jul 21)? I think it's WoT derivative (Tel'Aran'Rhiod meaning dreamworld or some such). Or maybe it's taken from some actual language and all the google links are just hopelessly poluted by the WoT fans.

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Old 06-04-2003, 03:59 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ June 04 2003,14:35)
But what if it didn't cause any harm?  What if Shadows of Isildur became popular, and the top players all went out and bought the novels and movies to complement their interest?  We have this concept of complementary items in economics: If the demand of jelly goes up, for example, there might be a corresponding increase in demand for peanut butter so that people can make scrumptious sandwiches.  How can you honestly say that the harm is always greater than the benefit?
As I've already explained in previous posts, the point is that you're in no position to judge the value of Tolkien's IP. You are not privy to the details of anything to do with the revenue gained from it. As the only people who are privy to that are the licensors, they are the only ones who have any business deciding if the value of their IP is increased or decreased. Thus the need to gain explicit permission.

--matt
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Old 06-04-2003, 04:07 PM   #89
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Mikkel:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
you know, someone might want to desist from using the handle "the logos" until they can present written permission for the use of that name.
*roll* The word "logos" has been in the public domain for a couple thousand years.

Stilton:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If you're looking for something to complain about, how about the area in Achaea named "Aran'Rhiod" (put into the game around Jul, 2002, according to an announcement dated Jul 21)? I think it's WoT derivative (Tel'Aran'Rhiod meaning dreamworld or some such). Or maybe it's taken from some actual language and all the google links are just hopelessly poluted by the WoT fans.
Erk, I cannot stand the Wheel of Time books. I stopped around book 5 out of boredom. Cool world, bad storytelling. I can't say I remember why we chose the name or who chose the name (It's aran'riod, btw, not aran'rhiod). We've got a couple amateur linguist volunteers though so it may be the name came from them and has some meaning I'm not aware of. I would certainly never intentionally steal anyone's IP, associate with anyone who did, or allow that kind of practice to pollute our original IP.

--matt
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Old 06-04-2003, 04:12 PM   #90
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You know, something just occured to me. I'm currently in the process of negotiating for exclusive license to a particular piece of IP (yeah, I know, imagine actually obtaining permission. Crazy concept.) and it occured to me that I were I dealing with Tolkien Enterprises, the mere existence of rip-off games like Shadows of Isildur would decrease the amount I'd be willing to pay for the right to do legal commercial text muds based on Tolkien IP as I'd either have to go to the hassle and expense of shutting them down or put up with illegally free competition. Take that for what it's worth but any business looking to license is going to feel the same way. You can bet that were there free huge-scale graphical muds (or mmogs or whatever acronym you prefer) based on Tolkien's IP, the Tolkien Estate would have gotten less money from Vivendi because of it.

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Old 06-04-2003, 04:19 PM   #91
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Did I miss your reply to Brody in regards to whether you'd be willing to leave this forum over this slight to your honor, the_logos? You've been so meticulous about replying up to this point, I wouldn't want you to have missed giving a reply to everything we've said so far, so I thought I'd remind you of it. If I've missed it, I humbly apologize.
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Old 06-04-2003, 04:34 PM   #92
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,15:29)
Unifex:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You (and Burr, possibly) misunderstand my scope.
(snip)
But what if it didn't cause any harm?
(snip)
How can you honestly say that the harm is always greater than the benefit?
Easy answer: I don't have to, or have the right to.
You don't have the right to say that something causes harm or benefit? That's quite disturbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,15:29)
The person who gets to decide that is the IP holder, who decides to grant or not grant a license based on HIS decision about the benefits vs harm.
Read my post again; I'm not contesting this at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,15:29)
It's not up to me (or you, or us as a community) to make the decision that the owner of the IP benefits from a certain use of it, and that therefore it's ok to do.
Do you still think this way even if we cannot obtain an express decision on the matter? Because if the owner doesn't make that decision then we simply don't know if it's okay or not. I must stress that this is not the same thing as knowing, and then going against the owner's wishes, which is what Vryce is guilty of and why any comparisons with him are futile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,15:29)
Yes, as you point out, the general rights granted the originator of an idea are arguably a social contract, but the application of these guidelines to individual instances are NOT.
Social contracts are useless unless they can be used to judge the ethicality of an individual's actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 04 2003,15:59)
As I've already explained in previous posts, the point is that you're in no position to judge the value of Tolkien's IP. You are not privy to the details of anything to do with the revenue gained from it. As the only people who are privy to that are the licensors, they are the only ones who have any business deciding if the value of their IP is increased or decreased. Thus the need to gain explicit permission.
Of course I am in no position to judge the entirety of the value of Tolkien's IP, but anyone with a basic understanding of complementary products can judge the relative value of a certain action. Consider, if I were to evangelize the series to a friend and that friend went out and bought the books and DVDs as a direct result of my actions, do you think the value of Tolkien's IP has not increased due to my actions? After all, why would they be going to the effort of selling these things if they didn't want them to be sold? I think we can have a very good understanding of what helps and harms the IP, even if we are not privy to the exact figures.

I missed this in your other post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 04 2003,13:21)
What if a game like SoL decided that elves were sex-maniacs? At least SOME of the players are going to have their perception of Tolkien's work altered by that kind of premise and that deprives the IP holder of revenue just as surely as taking his car does.
It is ironic that the term doujinshi, or "fan comics" in Japanese is taken as synonymous with "fan-created hentai [strange [sex]] comics" due to their huge popularity. Many of these comics are sold for-profit in shops and conventions, sometimes right along-side the official works. In fact, some of CLAMP's artists began as doujinshi artists and worked their way up to original works. As I've told you before in another time at another place, many American animation companies study which fan-created works are popular in order to decide which Japanese animation to license. They also allow a myriad of infringing works to exist and even be sold at fan conventions at which their executives attend and speak at panels! This is a stark contrast to your statements that the perception of the work altered by these premises is always negative. Furthermore, it stands to bolster my point that we can have a good idea what helps and harms IP. That is, unless you have done more market research than all of those Japanese executives.
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Old 06-04-2003, 04:49 PM   #93
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the_logos:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I would certainly never intentionally steal anyone's IP, associate with anyone who did, or allow that kind of practice to pollute our original IP.
Yes, I seem to remember the whip cracking pretty hard last time someone tried to be "less than creative" in your fan-fiction contest.

BTW, it just occured to me that Achaea's fan-fiction contests are a very good example of what an implied license really is: they publicly annouce that they will reward players for writing, art, etc based on the Achaea world. As far as I know, prospective entrants don't get signed documents from management giving them a license to create derivative works in order to participate. Note that (vs the present situation, where implied license is alleged) the IP owner is an active participant in the process of granting an implied license.


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Old 06-04-2003, 05:06 PM   #94
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Unifxex:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You don't have the right to say that something causes harm or benefit? That's quite disturbing.
I can say whatever I want, in terms of expressing an opinion. I don't have the right to give permission on behalf of an IP owner simply because of those feelings.

Most people will give different answers to the questions:
Is it moral to do X?
and
Is it legal to do X?

for at least some X

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Do you still think this way even if we cannot obtain an express decision on the matter? Because if the owner doesn't make that decision then we simply don't know if it's okay or not.
If you want to use IP, you have to obtain permission. If you don't KNOW if you have permission, then you don't HAVE permission.

Is being an in-your-face violator with a bad attitude and no respect for others morally worse than paying homage to your favorite author and not getting anything in return? Certainly, but that's got nothing to do with the actual question of whether this instance of fan-fiction is a legal use of the material or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Social contracts are useless unless they can be used to judge the ethicality of an individual's actions.
To rephrase then: society decides the rules. A judge decides how to apply them in individual cases. Any individual or group can make any claims about ethics they please, as long as they don't try to impose them on others outside the appropropriate legal process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I think we can have a very good understanding of what helps and harms the IP, even if we are not privy to the exact figures.
Do you think it would be legal for me to, without permission, publish a special edition LOTR, sell it for $1000/copy, and mail Tolkien Enterprises all of the money I get?

I don't think it would, although by your argument I'm certainly giving them more benefit per copy than their existing publishing arrangements.

Whether or not a use of IP is acceptable has nothing to do with how much good I (or anyone besides the owner) feel the action will do the owner.

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Old 06-04-2003, 05:09 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Wik @ June 04 2003,16:19)
Did I miss your reply to Brody in regards to whether you'd be willing to leave this forum over this slight to your honor, the_logos? You've been so meticulous about replying up to this point, I wouldn't want you to have missed giving a reply to everything we've said so far, so I thought I'd remind you of it. If I've missed it, I humbly apologize.
I didn't reply because it's not relevant to this thread. Start a new one if you want .
--matt
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:14 PM   #96
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considered in no particular order:

1) it doesn't matter! "the logos" , especially when used to identify an incorporated entity, is still property, and thus can be stolen and infringed upon ... especially when one is claiming to be "the logos" instead of your friendly neighborhood average, every day,  generic, public use "logos".

there's also a band by that name. ye gods! (the term "gods" of course, used by permission) another infringement! maybe one should consider adding a footnote or disclaimer after their name, to ensure there is no confusion ... or intent to derive a profit.

2) it doesn't matter! of course I do. but as previously pointed out, the fact that originators don't chose to enforce their claim has no bearing on the [sic] matter!
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:14 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ June 04 2003,16:34)
Furthermore, it stands to bolster my point that we can have a good idea what helps and harms IP. That is, unless you have done more market research than all of those Japanese executives.
I have probably not done more research than all those Japanese executives. However, I've also not done as much research as American music, film, or software executives, nearly all of whom are completely opposed to IP piracy.
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Mikkel @ June 04 2003,17:14)
considered in no particular order:

1) it doesn't matter! "logos" , especially when used to identify an incorporated entity, is still property, and thus can be stolen and infringed upon ... especially when one is claiming to be "the logos" instead of your friendly neighborhood average, every day, generic, public use "logos".
Do you actually understand IP law at all, or are you just throwing out conjectures?

Apple Computers doesn't own the word 'apple'. If I want to call myself Apple on this board, I'm violating no IP laws. Same with Logos.

Now, how about staying on topic instead of posting this red herring crap?

--matt
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Old 06-04-2003, 06:15 PM   #99
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me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unless you have evidence to the contrary, we can assume that society gave the copyright holder no more benefits than the copyright holder gave every other individual of society in return simply by being a part of that society.  Thus, the benefits added by society seem to be irrelevant to the discussion.
Unifex:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wow, say that again?
Ouch, I did say that poorly.  Allow me to try again.  Let A, B, and C be the unrealized value owned individually by three respective persons in a society of three.  Let X, Y, and Z be their respective innovations (a realization of value).  Let S be the total unrealized value owned jointly and equally by all members of society.

Let A, B, and C each be equal to 20.  Let S = 100, for there were once other contributing members of society, though they are now dead.  Then let's say A, B, and C each give a value of 5 to S, and then they each give a value of 5 to their respective creations.  S happens to provide 15 to each of their creations.

Now A, B, and C each equals 10.  S equals 60.  And X, Y, and Z each equal 20.

Now, someone might look at that situation and say, "Well, see, S provided more than any one of A, B, or C did."  However, we must remember that S belongs to A, B, and C, and thus can be allocated between them.  That means...

X = 5 directly from A, 5 indirectly from A (via S), 5 from B, and 5 from C.

A also contributed 5 to Y and 5 to Z (via S).  Thus, A exchanged an equal amount of value to B's and C's innovations as they did to A's innovation.  In effect, A compensated them (and him/herself, and thus the whole of society) for the value given to X, A's innovation, via S, society.

Thus, so long as we assume that member of society has contributed to society no less than the average of what was contributed by all members of society, then  we know that that member has compensated society for the value added by society to their innovation.  Thus, so long as they are willing to give up their claims to the innovations of all other existing members of society, then they can reasonably claim their innovation as their own, completely and fully, not a bit of it belonging to society as a whole.
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Old 06-04-2003, 06:21 PM   #100
Yui Unifex
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,17:06)
Unifxex:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You don't have the right to say that something causes harm or benefit? That's quite disturbing.
I can say whatever I want, in terms of expressing an opinion. I don't have the right to give permission on behalf of an IP owner simply because of those feelings.
And where did I claim that you had the right to give permission? We are well within our rights in discussing the harm and benefit of our actions. What was disturbing was your statement that we had no right to do this. Perhaps you mis-stated something, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,17:06)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Do you still think this way even if we cannot obtain an express decision on the matter? Because if the owner doesn't make that decision then we simply don't know if it's okay or not.
If you want to use IP, you have to obtain permission. If you don't KNOW if you have permission, then you don't HAVE permission.
This is simply not true: I don't know if I have permission to derive a great many works, and I'm sure that at least some creators would expressly grant me these rights. One can have absolutely no clue that they have permission to do certain things. You're also completely ruling out the creators that turn a blind eye, so to speak, to derivative works. Many authors don't explicitly grant licenses, but they don't forbid it either. This neutral path suits them just fine: If they explicitly granted them, they would be bogged down with the requests and tracking them if they decided to sell their IP. If they explicitly forbade them, they would alienate a portion of their fanbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,17:06)
To rephrase then: society decides the rules. A judge decides how to apply them in individual cases. Any individual or group can make any claims about ethics they please, as long as they don't try to impose them on others outside the appropropriate legal process.
So, um, what is your point? =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,17:06)
Certainly, but that's got nothing to do with the actual question of whether this instance of fan-fiction is a legal use of the material or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 04 2003,17:06)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I think we can have a very good understanding of what helps and harms the IP, even if we are not privy to the exact figures.
Do you think it would be legal for me to, without permission, publish a special edition LOTR, sell it for $1000/copy, and mail Tolkien Enterprises all of the money I get?

I don't think it would, although by your argument I'm certainly giving them more benefit per copy than their existing publishing arrangements.
You don't seem to understand that I'm arguing ethics and morality, not legality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 04 2003,17:17)
I have probably not done more research than all those Japanese executives. However, I've also not done as much research as American music, film, or software executives, nearly all of whom are completely opposed to IP piracy.
Yes, and we all know how trustworthy their statistics have been in these matters. But that's another thread and besides the point. You failed to respond to my points that we can have a good idea about what benefits and harms some IP. Or do you want to let stand your blanket-incorrect assertion that no matter what, we do not know the relative benefit and harm a certain action has upon some IP?
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