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Old 09-29-2009, 06:27 PM   #81
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
There are two threads full of discussion, definitions, links, and discourse on this topic. Regurgitating it all for your limited memory is something you may enjoy, most do not.
And I'm asking you to please stop relying on personal attacks and misquotes and post something to defend your position or else concede and stop deliberately making dishonest statements.
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Old 09-30-2009, 04:39 AM   #82
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
And I'm asking you to please stop relying on personal attacks and misquotes and post something to defend your position or else concede and stop deliberately making dishonest statements.
You mean stop doing what you do through this entire thread?

The thread is about RPI, RPE, and Roleplay. The thread was started because of your railroading another thread. Do not take the position that you were not. The OP asked the discussion to stop on the other thread and you would not stop so I brought it here. If you need a reference to that thread that proves this here it is: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ta...html#post41316

You claim constantly about misquotes and misunderstandings, but even as I read back through this entire thread I noticed you making assumptions and ignoring questions put before you. (example: post 23 if you need one). You also make misrepresentations utilizing an interpretation of the english lanquage or semantics. (Example: post 21) Here you claim the RPI Network is not your site you just pay the bills. Legally it IS your site. Legally you can ban every member of the commitee whether they want you to or not. Unless you have written bylaws and legal documents to control the site, the site is yours and yours alone to be owned and operated by you alone. To be shutdown, discontinued, or modified with you as the ultimate control to do so.

Personal Attacks: After reading through the thread it is clear I did throw some unnecessary insults. Deliberately making dishonest statements? I deny that accusation.

The argument, in my understanding, boils down to who may use the term RPI and who may not. My contention is that any game that is Roleplay Intense or Intensive may use the term RPI at leisure. Your contension (correct me if I am wrong) is that only those that follow the 19 points outlined by your group may use this term. Looking through threads, MUDs that claim to be RPI and RPE I saw a lot of confusion and disagreement about the term and no evidence (despite a few RPI references) that would proclude anyone from using the term as I outlined above.

A similar argument could be made for using the term MUD which is also ambiguous, in that only MUD's begun in 1980(some say the 70's) under the original codebase when the term MUD was first used may call themselves a MUD. It is my understanding that the 19 points you bring up about RPI were not all utilized when the term RPI (according to you) was first established. In fact, many if not all of the games you refer to have changed drastically since.

I ask this question then. Do you think no MUD should use the term RPI except as accepted by your group under the guidelines you established?
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Old 09-30-2009, 09:10 AM   #83
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I find it odd that a roleplay game like Armeggedon still uses the antiquated think command. Think is an emote that is only useful to the character typing it as no one but a psion or mindreader would be able to roleplay off of it.
I think this question best illustrated the difference between an IRP and an RPI. Not why an RPI is better (though subjectively, I'd maintain they are better) but why they are different.

When writing a novel or story an author will often write an elaborate back story. They have no interest in including said story in the published text, but the richness of the backstory will be be felt in the subtext and the way the story hangs together. Almost a ghost facet of the text.

The think command does the same thing. Only the player thinking sees their thoughts, but it makes their rp deeper and richer and more fleshed out. Other players won't see the thoughts but they will see the depth that stems from those thoughts.

In an RPI that's more than important it's crucial. In an IRP, I have to assume, from your question, it has less or no value.

So, this is why RPIs are different, and why they continue to use a command that you perceive as outdated.
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:15 AM   #84
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
You mean stop doing what you do through this entire thread?

The thread is about RPI, RPE, and Roleplay. The thread was started because of your railroading another thread. Do not take the position that you were not. The OP asked the discussion to stop on the other thread and you would not stop so I brought it here. If you need a reference to that thread that proves this here it is: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ta...html#post41316
My response in that thread was begun in response to your post (4:13 pm my time) before the OP's request (4:41 pm my time) was ever made. As my dinner was ready as I was typing I stopped and did not come back to the post for some time. I completed and posted my response at 7:12 pm (my time), after the OP made their request. That is not the same thing as "you would not stop".

Quote:
You claim constantly about misquotes and misunderstandings, but even as I read back through this entire thread I noticed you making assumptions and ignoring questions put before you. (example: post 23 if you need one).
Delerak answered that in the next post so I saw no reason to. As for misquotes and misunderstandings (or misrepresentations), examples would include your claim that I was calling anyone in the discussion a murderer, that the 19 characteristics of RPIs represent my own personal views, that people quit the Operating Committee because of me, or that I'm paying for the hosting for the RPMUD Network for some hidden motive beyond my stated one.

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(Example: post 21) Here you claim the RPI Network is not your site you just pay the bills. Legally it IS your site. Legally you can ban every member of the commitee whether they want you to or not. Unless you have written bylaws and legal documents to control the site, the site is yours and yours alone to be owned and operated by you alone. To be shutdown, discontinued, or modified with you as the ultimate control to do so.
We do have a formal set of bylaws establishing how the site is operated. In 2008 we formally approved our Charter which governs how the site is operated and established our Operating Committee to make all decisions regarding such operation. I've mentioned this on numerous occassions.

I've also mentioned that I'd be happy to cease paying the bills if someone else would do so. While I suppose I could shut down or discontinue the site by refusing to pay for its hosting, I have no intention of doing so. I'd also welcome an arrangement to guarantee I couldn't by the creation of an independent funding source to ensure that hosting was automatically paid.

As for modifying the site, I could not any more than any other member of the Operating Committee. In fact, there's plenty I could not do as I do not have the passwords for full access. Only the site's webmaster, one of the other Operating Committee members, has those. I do not.

Quote:
Personal Attacks: After reading through the thread it is clear I did throw some unnecessary insults. Deliberately making dishonest statements? I deny that accusation.
For an example, you need go no further than your initial post in this thread.

Quote:
The topic revolves around the origin of RPI and RPE and why a small subset of MUD's should annex the title RPI...Every month or so someone brings up another thread about RPI's and relating them to this small group. Some gamers and creators believe that this is a misuse of the term Roleplay Intensive and take offense to this small group claiming that name for their subset of MUD's.
The annexation, to use your term, is not by "a small subset" since this term's original application referred to them. The controversy has resulted from its wider use by and to describe games beyond that context. It is dishonest to alter the historical context of this disagreement to switch the nature of the origins of the controversy. If this is merely an error on your part, then it's not dishonesty. If it's a deliberate attempt to bias interpretation of the controversy, that's dishonest.

(continued below)
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:15 AM   #85
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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The argument, in my understanding, boils down to who may use the term RPI and who may not. My contention is that any game that is Roleplay Intense or Intensive may use the term RPI at leisure. Your contension (correct me if I am wrong) is that only those that follow the 19 points outlined by your group may use this term.
The "points" were not outlined by my group, if by "group" you are referring to the RPMUD Operating Committee (although many of the people present in the round table discussion to discern the characteristics to which the original application of the term applied do sit on the Committee).

Quote:
Looking through threads, MUDs that claim to be RPI and RPE I saw a lot of confusion and disagreement about the term and no evidence (despite a few RPI references) that would proclude anyone from using the term as I outlined above.
As I said, there's a distinct lack of archiving for the formative years of the term. My own exposure to the term use was in 2000. Others can attest to it as far back as 1997. While some never gave much thought as to what it means, they could at least attest to what were RPIs and what weren't. I didn't take a serious interest in the origin, use and misuse of the term until preparing a presentation on MU*s for a role-playing and gaming group I formed back in college. Based on those games which had consensus as RPI, I and some others were able to discern shared characteristics possessed by all of those games for which there was consensus in calling RPI.

Quote:
A similar argument could be made for using the term MUD which is also ambiguous, in that only MUD's begun in 1980(some say the 70's) under the original codebase when the term MUD was first used may call themselves a MUD.
Agreed, there are varying disputes over the term. That's why in most cases I prefer the term MU* although not everyone uses that term (and in some instances it's therefore better to say MUD and avoid confusion).

Quote:
It is my understanding that the 19 points you bring up about RPI were not all utilized when the term RPI (according to you) was first established. In fact, many if not all of the games you refer to have changed drastically since.
The 19 characteristics were all in place at the time that the term RPI was used to describe the group of games to which there is consensus that they are RPI. The games have changed, but those 19 characteristics have remained. All 19 characteristics were present when the term was in use as far back as 1996 (for which earlier evidence of its use is at present non-existent). There are many other characteristics that were brought up in the analysis which did not apply to all of the first RPIs. One such example was player accounts. While player accounts are almost universal in RPIs today (aside from Southlands they all use them), this is due to the spread in use of the RPI Engine. Harshlands originally did not employ accounts nor did FEM or FE2. As a result, despite its common use today, use of player accounts was not included in the 19 characterstics (and hence why Southlands is considered RPI despite being the odd-man out without them).

Another example of a characteristics which some felt was necessary for RPI was the existence of ranged weapon code. Again, Armageddon had this but Harshlands, FEM and many other RPIs did not. It was only with the spread of the SoI RPI Engine that this feature again spread in use.

There are variations on how the RPIs enforce the policy characteristics. For example, citing their setting, Armageddon has far less emphasis on RP in the deserts outside of the cities. This, however, is also subject to interpretation as I have seen examples of the staff taking deliberate action to enforce RP in those areas when players do disregard the setting. Such variations are therefore more the case of staff diligence and time than they are examples of non-RP policies. Also, as has been pointed out, there are disagreements over what constitutes "role-play" and thus such variations are also subject to the differences in the interpretation of role-play rather than a lack of a RP-enforcement policy.

On Harshlands, there are areas which are not described but that's because those areas of the game were never completed and were locked off for some time. At some point they unlocked the gates allowing access in but as it's on the extreme edge of the game world, very few players ever go there. Likewise, in 2002 they allowed alternate characters for a single event to allow players without characters in that particular region the ability to participate in the major battle that was to occur. However, these characters were only on the game for that event and never again. They also opened a separate and isolated area of the game for "alternate characters" but these characters do not have contact with the rest of the game making this area function as a separate miniature game unto itself. The same could apply to the OOC arena in SoI's Guest Lounge.

For code variations beyond the 19 characteristics, I do think it's possible to further distinguish particular sub-types of RPI MUDs though in many cases it's rather unnecessary. Still, a breakdown of RPI MUDs tends to reveal several sub-types.

1. Armageddon-type RPI: Armageddon is the sole representative.*
2. Harshlands-type RPI: Dark Horizon seems to be the sole remaining representative.
3. SoI-type RPI: A variation on the Harshlands-type, most of the RPIs presently in existence conform with this game.
4. Southlands-type RPI: It appears Southlands is the only remaining operating game of this type.

*Black Sands uses the SoI RPI Engine but is changing their code mechanics to more closely resemble the way in which Armageddon displays some information. As such, it could be argued that it's either Arm-type or SoI-type. However, as they're still in open beta the final result remains to be seen.

There are also several other projects in development which are creating new RPI-useable codebases and thus may also be handling the code mechanics in ways which would warrant labeling as a new type of RPI. My own project would fall under this category as we'll still possess the 19 characteristics but in other ways will be doing things differently than any of the other RPIs.

Quote:
I ask this question then. Do you think no MUD should use the term RPI except as accepted by your group under the guidelines you established?
I think that the because that term has a historical context relating back to its earliest use in the MU* community to describe a small number of games sharing a particular set of characteristics, its use should be confined to referring to that particular group of games. For people who played those games then, it served a distinct purpose by identifying games which were similar and still does today. The "guidelines" are not such; they are characteristics shared by those games to which the term's use originally applied.

For games which do not possess these 19 characteristics, I tend to use the terms Role-Play Oriented (RPO) and Role-Play Enforced (RPE). Another person on the forums here used Role-Play Focused. Role-Play Enforced is fairly easy to define as the only characteristic of such games is the existence of a required RP policy. I coined the term Role-Play Oriented (RPO) as a catch all to describe games which weren't simply RPE but didn't necessarily have all 19 characteristics of RPI. Coming up with a clearer definition than that is difficult because of the number of variations possible. With some of those 19 characteristics, you could get nine games with 17 characteristics but each could be missing two completely different ones! Sure, names and acronyms could be devised for each different variation but without a significant number of games conforming to this variation, it becomes a bit unnecessary. Hence the catch-all term of RPO, a term with the RPMUD Operating Committee also uses.

Please understand that while some people may associate RPI with "higher quality RP", such a conclusion is subjective and such association is therefore not accurate. If anything, it's been my observation that the RPIs have suffered an overall decline in the quality of the RP typically found on them in the decade since I first started playing them. On one hand, one could simply suggest that this is due to the greater number of RPIs open and the increased playerbase size on the older ones but it appears to be more than just that. In any regard, the term RPI is not a reference to the quality of role-play.

Finally, I appreciate your more civil tone of your last post. Thank you very much.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:36 PM   #86
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

I don't think it boils down to "who may use" the term and "who may not." I think it boils down to "to whom does the term, AND its common attributes apply, and to whom it does not."

As I've said in another thread (in similar terms)...if most people who have seen the color green, define it in a certain way, and a blind guy comes by and says "no no, that's not green, THIS is green" and defines it a different way, well the blind guy may very well be correct, and the rest of the people may very well be incorrect. But..

It doesn't matter. If the people who defined green say, "We're having a party, come on by, you have to wear green to get in" and you show up wearing purple, you ain't getting in. EVEN if you say "this IS green."

NewWorlds doesn't agree that RPI means what most of the people *who actually use the term* think it means. New World's game isn't an RPI, and it never was an RPI. He didn't know that, because he didn't understand the "generally regarded as standard" usage of the term. He knew its definition: "Roleplay Intensive." He was absolutely correct. And his game really IS roleplay intensive. However, the three letters, used as a term - RPI "Are Pee Eye"..don't -only- mean "roleplay intensive." It means that, along with certain criteria that has become generally regarded by the community as standard, for that specific term. Not the specific term "roleplay intensive," but the specific term "RPI." The term -could- mean "Real Pigs are Interesting" for all it matters, and it wouldn't change a thing. Only games that include the majority of certain criteria will fit that category.

NewWorlds is welcome to call his game Roleplay Intensive - his game really does have some great intensive roleplay afterall, so the term is appropriate. However, it is not an RPI. If he uses the term RPI, no board police will come down and arrest him, no one will sue him, no one will siteban him. His entry on the TMS listings might be edited if he says officially on his listing that it's an RPI, but other than that, he's not doing anything *wrong.* What he's doing, is wearing a purple jumpsuit and walking over to a bunch of green jumpsuit-wearing people, and telling them that he's wearing green and that all of the green-wearing people are wrong.

That's not wrong, it's just dumb. Or perhaps color blind. As far as I know, neither is a crime.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:16 PM   #87
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
I don't think it boils down to "who may use" the term and "who may not." I think it boils down to "to whom does the term, AND its common attributes apply, and to whom it does not."
While I respect your opinion, I disagree. Who uses or doesn't use the term is, in my opinion, irrelevant. There is is an entire thread of 239 posts arguing over what the term means, who should use it and who should not as shown here: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ad...s-rpi-mud.html

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
It doesn't matter. If the people who defined green say, "We're having a party, come on by, you have to wear green to get in" and you show up wearing purple, you ain't getting in. EVEN if you say "this IS green."
I do not recall ever wanting to be part of the RPIMud.org, RPMUD network, or associated with this group. As shown in the above link, I am not the only one. The contention is simply the use of the term RPI and the definition of it.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
NewWorlds doesn't agree that RPI means what most of the people *who actually use the term* think it means. New World's game isn't an RPI, and it never was an RPI. He didn't know that, because he didn't understand the "generally regarded as standard" usage of the term.
Again, look at the above link and read through it. Your supposition here is incorrect, in my opinion. NWA is not "RPI" in your (meaning the 19 point) definition, true, but the above link shows that many do not agree with this.

The rest of your presentation ended on how I'm dumb or blind, so I won't comment on it as I see it as argumentative opinion.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:21 PM   #88
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

My summation is this:

Should Roleplay Intense or Intensive MUDs be allowed to use the term RPI without hostility, arguments, or insults over such usage?

Yes.
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:25 PM   #89
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
My summation is this:

Should Roleplay Intense or Intensive MUDs be allowed to use the term RPI without hostility, arguments, or insults over such usage?

Yes.
Then I pose you these related questions:

Should pure H&S or powergaming MUDs be allowed to use the term "RP Enforced" to refer to themselves in their listings and adverts without other MUD owners responding with hostility, arguments or insults?

When players post on these forums asking for RP-oriented MUDs, should I be permitted to recommend my MUD without other MUD owners disagreeing with my recommendation?
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:39 PM   #90
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Furthermore, if my game is about wars between gods, can I call my game a Godwars game and advertise it as such, and even name it "The Godwars Mud" without hostility, insults, and arguments?"

If my game has as its theme, three new worlds, can I call my game NewworldsIII and advertise it as such, without hostility, insults, and arguments?

If my game is about Redundant Partial Integrity, can I call it an RPI and advertise it as such, without hostility, insults, and arguments?

If my game has a Dog that Is Killing in the Underworld, can I call it a DIKU and advertise it as such, without hostility, insults, and arguments?
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:44 PM   #91
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
My summation is this:

Should Roleplay Intense or Intensive MUDs be allowed to use the term RPI without hostility, arguments, or insults over such usage?

Yes.
I have two questions for you. Why would roleplay intense, intensive, enforced or whatever else MUDs even want to use the term RPI, and what is the value in trying to broaden the meaning of the term in order to apply it to a wider subset of MUDs?
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:00 PM   #92
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
Then I pose you these related questions:

Should pure H&S or powergaming MUDs be allowed to use the term "RP Enforced" to refer to themselves in their listings and adverts without other MUD owners responding with hostility, arguments or insults?

When players post on these forums asking for RP-oriented MUDs, should I be permitted to recommend my MUD without other MUD owners disagreeing with my recommendation?
No. We've all seen the God Wars RP Log.
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:33 PM   #93
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
Then I pose you these related questions:

Should pure H&S or powergaming MUDs be allowed to use the term "RP Enforced" to refer to themselves in their listings and adverts without other MUD owners responding with hostility, arguments or insults?

When players post on these forums asking for RP-oriented MUDs, should I be permitted to recommend my MUD without other MUD owners disagreeing with my recommendation?
If they Enforce Roleplay why not? If they don't, the player logging in will know quickly anyway. Realistically this happens all the time even on MMO's. But for us, testing a MUD is best done like this: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ne...-mud-home.html

Those MUD's that are RPE aren't as uptight about the term, in my opinion. The term is also much more straightforward and direct.
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:42 PM   #94
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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I have two questions for you. Why would roleplay intense, intensive, enforced or whatever else MUDs even want to use the term RPI
Most probably would not. As the term RPI has started to have a negative connotation as shown in the predecessor thread to this one, it became clear that some would never use it so as not to be associated with the RPI group.

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Originally Posted by Orrin View Post
and what is the value in trying to broaden the meaning of the term in order to apply it to a wider subset of MUDs?
Not necessarily broaden it, but rather not allow the definition to only be reserved for this group.
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Old 09-30-2009, 07:21 PM   #95
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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If they Enforce Roleplay why not?
Well I'm talking about pure H&S or powergaming MUDs, so let's assume they've chosen to use a similar definition of RPG as most video games. They consider themselves "RP Enforced" because the players are forced to play a character (rather than as themselves as they could in a chatroom), and their skills and fighting abilities are determined by that character. In effect, it's a definition that could be applied to all MUDs.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Those MUD's that are RPE aren't as uptight about the term, in my opinion. The term is also much more straightforward and direct.
But do you think that all MUDs should be allowed to list themselves as RPE without hostility, arguments, or insults over such usage?
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:57 PM   #96
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Most probably would not. As the term RPI has started to have a negative connotation as shown in the predecessor thread to this one, it became clear that some would never use it so as not to be associated with the RPI group.
The negative connotation has always existed for some. For others it carried and still carries a positive connotation. However, it is interesting that some of those who view it negatively are the ones who seem to oppose its specific use, support its abuse to the point of obsolescence and then claim they wouldn't use it. Interesting but not surprising. One would think that if they had no interest in using it, they wouldn't put up such a fuss about it unless their goal was specifically to damage its usefulness as well as any game to which it was applied. Is that the case here?

Quote:
Not necessarily broaden it, but rather not allow the definition to only be reserved for this group.
That is, in effect, broadening the term because it's then being applied to a wider range of games and feature/policy sets.

Original Use: Applying to games with the clear definition of possessing 19 characteristics, a total of less than 3 dozen games since the term was coined.

Different Use: Applying to more than those 31-32 games and therefore conceivably applying to hundreds of games without any clear definition.

How is that not broadening the definition?
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:54 AM   #97
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
...One would think that if they had no interest in using it, they wouldn't put up such a fuss about it unless their goal was specifically to damage its usefulness as well as any game to which it was applied. Is that the case here?
I suppose one could look at it that way. I cannot say for a fact, but I doubt that is the case for anyone.

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
That is, in effect, broadening the term because it's then being applied to a wider range of games and feature/policy sets...
First, I think there are only 3 or 4 games right now under the RPMUD definition that are open. Having a smattering of MUDs using this term wouldn't mean much. Second, I think the argument hasn't really been to broaden the term, but rather have this small minority group use a different, more precise term as was suggested several times. A term like ARMMUD, RPI-19, or the like.

You might respond, "Why should they, they coined the phrase?" My answer would be, "Because you will always have people using the term to your chagrine and it will probably be misconstrued for a long time."
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:15 PM   #98
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
First, I think there are only 3 or 4 games right now under the RPMUD definition that are open.
Just as an informational note, there are presently five that are definitely open, a sixth which is questionable as there's been no word from their staff in almost a year and four to six more in development.

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Having a smattering of MUDs using this term wouldn't mean much.
It means everything for reasons I’ll elaborate upon below.

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Second, I think the argument hasn't really been to broaden the term, but rather have this small minority group use a different, more precise term as was suggested several times. A term like ARMMUD, RPI-19, or the like.

You might respond, "Why should they, they coined the phrase?" My answer would be, "Because you will always have people using the term to your chagrine and it will probably be misconstrued for a long time."
But instead of being upset and complaining about the RPIs using the term they coined, why not be upset and complain about those games which misuse the term? Your method seems to punish players of RPIs by stripping them of the term they've used to describe their games for 13+ years rather than correct those games which called, whether accidently or deliberately, a term whose definition they did not meet. There's a degree of familiarity, built on nearly a decade and a half of use (the wider application of the term by other games dates back only half as long) that makes the term useful for those wishing to find those 5-6 open games out of a sea of over 1500 MUDs, 350+ of which are RPE. Conversely, for those who do not like the kind of code and policy which comprise the RPIs, the term also gives them a means of identifying those games which they do NOT want to play. Just because there are more non-RPI role-playing MUDs out there means nothing. After all, there are more H&S than there are role-playing MUDs. On sheer numbers alone, they should be more entitled to use the term then! Of course that doesn’t make sense just as the “having a smattering of MUDs using this term wouldn’t mean much”.

There also really isn't a “precise term” for anything though. "ARMMUD" might lead players to expect the use of classes for determining skill selection (Harshlands and SoI derived RPIs allow the player to select their skills individually). A term like RPI-19 would probably be just as confusing if the term RPI were used by other games because they're still quite similar. Short of literally coming up with a name like "Levelless, Traditional-Class-Lacking, Description-Based, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera” featuring all 19 characteristics, you’re not going to have a “precise term”. Furthermore, if RPIs shouldn’t use the term because it’s not “precise”, why should any other MUD?

The “precise” argument also fails to take into account that the term is precise as it has an original context to which it was applied. Discerning the characteristics, 19 in total, which were shared by those games to which the term was first applied is pretty damned precise especially given the vague nature of most terms in the MU* community.

Also, even if RPIs used a new term, how would RPI players come to learn of it? As has been noted, there aren't that many of them that frequent these forums. Less than a tenth of the RPI players I know look at TMS and even fewer have accounts here. So even if a new term were created, let's just use ABCXYZ as an example, most would probably not know of it and continue using the term RPI. They wouldn't know that the games they've known of as RPI for nearly a decade and a half are now called ABCXYZ, especially if the term RPI was still being used by dozens if not hundreds of other games out there.

In addition, there are over 350 RPEs out there and if the term RPI is used simply as a substitute for RPE, what's to keep games without enforced role-play from then using the term? They can literally point to the original definition which applied to a total of only 5-6 games (and only 31-32 games in a decade and a half) and then to the broader use which could include over 25 times as many existing games and justifiably ask, "Why can't we use it too?" In fact, by the precedent that would be established, the only justification that they'd need is simply to use it then argue that they think they should be entitled to and that the 350 formerly-RPE games are being "elitist" or any other term that has been applied to the original RPIs for arguing their use of the term.

The terms Role-Play Intensive, Role-Playing Intensive and RPI were in use for years before the roots of the present controversy began. This controversy stems not from the inaccuracy of the term but from the misuse of the term, either through ignorance or deceit, by games that were not like those to which it had been describing for years. RPIs coming up with a new term or being prohibited from using the term as they had since its creation are not solutions. The real solution to this problem are educating the community and upholding standards.

Jason
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:30 PM   #99
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

While you make several good arguments for the RPMUD organization promoting your groups RPI style games I still believe the acronym too open to interpretation.
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:57 PM   #100
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

I have avoided getting involved in this discussion because of how flamey it was from the get go, but this point needs to be made:

Coining a term does not give the "coiner" any control over its use or definition. To believe otherwise is not just silly but a recipe for a lifetime of frustration.

I am sure the makers of AIDS diet candy were not terribly happy when a fatal disease was given the same name (which subsequently drove their 50+ year old company out of business in short order).
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