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Old 02-24-2010, 09:40 PM   #1
Reveries
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The problem with muds Aka Hello

Bare bones background, I have been a role player for years over various mediums, both pen and paper and digital. I have staffed on and even developed a few projects, how ever that's all largely immaterial. I know absolutely nothing about muds, except the concept appeals and that they seem to be exactly what I am looking for in a game at this time.

So far all is well and good, I am aware muds exist, I am aware I want to play on one. That is about where it ends though. I am clearly a touch slow as it seems most muds, assume one knows the basics. So I am looking for a role play intensive mud that does not leave me entirely confused. I'll find it doubtless.

It's not all doom and gloom mind, the communities/players I have encountered are extremely friendly. A lot of the game worlds seem original and exciting.

So I am going back to exploring the myriad of choices, thanks all for having me.
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:25 AM   #2
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

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Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
So I am going back to exploring the myriad of choices, thanks all for having me.
Welcome to TMS Reveries. I think you have the right idea. Like anything it's going to take a good deal of time to really get 'skilled' at playing muds. Don't worry about not learning everything at once .
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:06 AM   #3
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Bare bones background, I have been a role player for years over various mediums, both pen and paper and digital. I have staffed on and even developed a few projects, how ever that's all largely immaterial. I know absolutely nothing about muds, except the concept appeals and that they seem to be exactly what I am looking for in a game at this time.

So far all is well and good, I am aware muds exist, I am aware I want to play on one. That is about where it ends though. I am clearly a touch slow as it seems most muds, assume one knows the basics. So I am looking for a role play intensive mud that does not leave me entirely confused. I'll find it doubtless.

It's not all doom and gloom mind, the communities/players I have encountered are extremely friendly. A lot of the game worlds seem original and exciting.

So I am going back to exploring the myriad of choices, thanks all for having me.
Well best of luck to ya friend. There are a lot of choices out there depending on what your tastes are. As you mentioned Roleplay I will give my suggestion.

New Worlds Ateraan
newworlds-rpg.com
port 4002

It is a pretty roleplay friendly game. And it is easy to get going in RP wise and otherwise. I also give this suggestion because the player base is very helpful. Start in the North and you'll get all the help you could ask for.

Anyway if you don't want to try that one or it isn't your thing, good luck to ya!
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:09 AM   #4
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Bare bones background, I have been a role player for years over various mediums, both pen and paper and digital. I have staffed on and even developed a few projects, how ever that's all largely immaterial. I know absolutely nothing about muds, except the concept appeals and that they seem to be exactly what I am looking for in a game at this time.

So far all is well and good, I am aware muds exist, I am aware I want to play on one. That is about where it ends though. I am clearly a touch slow as it seems most muds, assume one knows the basics. So I am looking for a role play intensive mud that does not leave me entirely confused. I'll find it doubtless.

It's not all doom and gloom mind, the communities/players I have encountered are extremely friendly. A lot of the game worlds seem original and exciting.

So I am going back to exploring the myriad of choices, thanks all for having me.
There are a few Role-Play Intensive MUDs though some aren't fully open. The list would include (in alphabetical order):

Armageddon
Atonement (just opened)
Black Sands (reopened after some problems)
Dark Horizon (undetermined status)
Harshlands
SciallaMud (not yet open)
Shadows of Isildur
Southlands
The Streets of Yesterday (no where near to being open)

If you meant Role-Play Oriented or Enforced, the list is somewhat larger, around 350 or so with half of them open. It's not always easy to sort through as there are a variety of different looks and approaches to choose from. I suppose it would help if you gave us some idea of the features and setting you're looking for. That could help narrow down the list and maybe we can find you a game that suits your desires.

Good luck in any regard!

Jason
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:56 AM   #5
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

I'd recommend you try Atonement. I recommend it with a caveat.
They are in alpha and so the docs are still in progress.
However, if you register on the forums you'll find much of the information you'll need. Additionally, the playerbase is very accommodating.

That said, it's a sci-fi theme, and very accessible. You can quickly find your feet there. Additionally, the emphasis is really not on the mechanics but on the shared story experience. If you're looking to rp you'll like it, or if you are like me and hate not being sure what you're doing, it may be better to say you'll like it once you find your feet. But I think finding your feet here is easier than on the other two muds I'll recommend.

Armageddon, absolutely a work of art. While there are always going to be exceptions, and while Arm can at times be intimidating, I'd say their's is the highest quality rp on the web. (There will be those who will now take offense and call me an elitist. [I will now stipulate that I am an offensive elitist, so we can all move along.])

My last rec is Shadows of Isildur. If you want traditional fantasy, you cannot get more traditional than Tolkien. The have a nice staff, a dedicated playerbase and some very good players. I don't really play SOI, so I'm sure one of their players can better promote it.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:16 PM   #6
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Thanks everyone, further proof of that friendly community I have been enjoying.

Next question I suppose is whats the difference between role play enforced and intensive? If role play is enforced surely everyone is doing it?
What I am I suppose looking for is an in depth role playing experience, I love collective story telling and world building. Combat is fine but should not be the focus, pvp is fine and occasionally necessary but not my main interest. That said the notion of perminant death does not bother me in the least.

At a glance it looks like Shadows of Isildur is what I want to be playing. I adore a conflict heavy setting that finds story paramount. Might be a little complex for a total newb but I will give it a go. Failing that, I really have seen a lot of great muds and I'll keep trying them till I find the one that suits me.

All said I can see that once I find my feet I am going to have a lot of fun.


Edit: Thanks for the advice Fifi and Prof. I also looked at Arm, but I think I am going to give SOI a go, if it does not work for me I will keep Atonement in mind.

Warning : Below I digress a lot, likely more interesting to mud staff/admin than players.

The below are just observations from a new comer, not criticisms I am sure mud admins know what they are doing It simply feels that muds are aimed at mudders, if they were more open or simply more familiar I think more people would try them out. I truly believe I would have given up if I was not familiar with online role playing, communities and at least the principle if not the mechanics.

I wonder why unlike most graphical games muds generally do not offer "ooc" chat say through irc or a java platform? Even an alternate connection to the mud server just for chatter (so it can be logged). Most times people want to get a feel for the community, ask a few questions like - do you actually have players, what time is busiest etc -. The result of not having a separate place to communicate. Is a new player, logs into a new environment is bombarded with information, eventually finds out how to OOC talk but still feels entirely lost.
As soon as a new player meets a few veterans and they are nice folk and knows the basics it all feels less alien and imposing. It would also provide new players with a space to ask all manner of silly questions with out spamming up peoples game space?


Detailed new players manual, featuring key commands instead of referring constantly to help in game. It is a lot to remember and calling on help from inside the client simply adds confusion in some instances. Even for graphical projects one of the first jobs was an extensive game manual. In a perfect world a player should log in first time armed with all information needed to play. Other wise well,It all sort of plays out like this....

Newbie: Hello stranger
Stranger: Greetings fair newb welcome to the wondrous world of XXXX, please have this sword.
Newbie: Thank you kind stranger
Newbie: -help trade
System: -Wall of text that fiils the screen-
System: five people enter from the north
OOC: hey newbie your description is a little off but its cool
OOC: You know you can use zmote and \ to qmote.
OOC: Man you need to try the cool functions.
Newbie -ooc- : Thanks all is there is a list of commands some place.
OOC: Sure there is just type help list.
Stranger: Go on take the sword fair traveler....
Stranger2: Newbie how are you finding your time here.
Newbie: Help list
System: -wall of text-


This continues a little before I have managed to scroll most of the actual rp text off the screen, lost who is even talking to who and basically my brain has melted. All the while my only goal was too try and get a sense of the game lol

Similarly wikis, some games do this better than others make sure it covers as much as possible. Make sure I can find it!

Next forums.
Many muds lock their forums from even being viewed before you register. First place I check on any new game is the forums. Just to get a feel for the player base, if a forum is full of leet speak and cursing I know its not for me. Similarly if its wall to wall gripes.
Now we all fight the good fight against spam, I appreciate accounts need to be verified and that's cool. How ever if I cannot even browse the place while I wait, I am likely to move along.

I know this reads as long complaint, but I have spent years with online games and consequentially trying to get people to join, play, stick around. It simply feels that a lot of muds I have looked into or tried are hard to break into if you are not at home in a mud. If I feel that way, I am sure many do and so people don't become "mudders" or some such.

I appreciate all of these problems are fleeting and if one sticks it out, soon one knows all the commands and how to play. How ever if people don't stick around.....
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:23 PM   #7
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Bare bones background, I have been a role player for years over various mediums, both pen and paper and digital. I have staffed on and even developed a few projects, how ever that's all largely immaterial. I know absolutely nothing about muds, except the concept appeals and that they seem to be exactly what I am looking for in a game at this time.
You sound very much like me. Like Saire mentioned, New Worlds Ateraan is your best bet. When I found it, it was the ultimate in intensive roleplay with a myriad of choices, easy to start and get going without a bunch of hogwash and garbage to weed through.

The best thing about NWA is that the staff and players are super helpful. Try it out it is far and beyond the best roleplaying game on the web. You can get to a play link at the website at www.newworlds-rpg.com. Make sure you start your first character in the North though as it is much more helpful and ask for a tour once you get out of creation. The tour is not automated, one or two or more players will take you around roleplaying with you and showing you the town. It's pretty cool. I'd ask to take a ride on a ship, it will floor you! LOL
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:55 PM   #8
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

You wrote a large post and I'll try to respond briefly to your questions and comments. Like some others here, I believe you should try New Worlds. It is a highly indepth roleplaying environment with a large playerbase, superb guilds, unique races, dangerous scenarious, invasions, marketing, religion, politics, and two very different areas to start in (Kingdom-Which is relatively organized and Southland-Which is very dangerous and harsh). There is resurrected death and permadeath depending on the situation which gives more depth to roleplay.

Now on to your answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Next question I suppose is whats the difference between role play enforced and intensive? If role play is enforced surely everyone is doing it?
This is an fiercely argued question on TMS, but my interpretation is this in the game functionality not the terms. Both rpe and rpi are enforced roleplay. Proponants of RPI maintain it is a standard of functionality for their specific games:. no levels, no guilds, permadeath, no ooc channels, etc. These are specific functions that some argue make the game more intense and others argue it makes the game more unplayable. Regardless, the quality of roleplay you find depends entirely up to you and the games you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Warning : Below I digress a lot, likely more interesting to mud staff/admin than players.

The below are just observations from a new comer, not criticisms I am sure mud admins know what they are doing It simply feels that muds are aimed at mudders, if they were more open or simply more familiar I think more people would try them out. I truly believe I would have given up if I was not familiar with online role playing, communities and at least the principle if not the mechanics.

I wonder why unlike most graphical games muds generally do not offer "ooc" chat say through irc or a java platform? Even an alternate connection to the mud server just for chatter (so it can be logged). Most times people want to get a feel for the community, ask a few questions like - do you actually have players, what time is busiest etc -. The result of not having a separate place to communicate. Is a new player, logs into a new environment is bombarded with information, eventually finds out how to OOC talk but still feels entirely lost.

As soon as a new player meets a few veterans and they are nice folk and knows the basics it all feels less alien and imposing. It would also provide new players with a space to ask all manner of silly questions with out spamming up peoples game space?
I agree with alot of what you say. In NWA we have many "channels" for player communication both IC and OOC. All of these channels can be blocked or unblocked as needed. For new players there is a question channel that is completely ooc. This is maintained by staff members specifically there to assist new players. Many players tune out these channels once they have a pure understanding of the game to become more immersed in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Detailed new players manual, featuring key commands instead of referring constantly to help in game. It is a lot to remember and calling on help from inside the client simply adds confusion in some instances. Even for graphical projects one of the first jobs was an extensive game manual. In a perfect world a player should log in first time armed with all information needed to play.
NWA has a new players manual on the website that walks you through starting in the Kingdom and what to do. There are also online help files for this purpose. For the hard core roleplayer, NWA has the option of starting in the south where you receive no help at all which is only recommended for the advanced mudder/roleplayer or veterans of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
Next forums. Many muds lock their forums from even being viewed before you register. First place I check on any new game is the forums. Just to get a feel for the player base, if a forum is full of leet speak and cursing I know its not for me. Similarly if its wall to wall gripes.
We lock our forums for a very simple reason. We have over 500 active players with over 100 playing constantly. Discussions on our forums are indepth to game play and over the years we've found this is detrimental to brand new players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveries View Post
I know this reads as long complaint, but I have spent years with online games and consequentially trying to get people to join, play, stick around. It simply feels that a lot of muds I have looked into or tried are hard to break into if you are not at home in a mud. If I feel that way, I am sure many do and so people don't become "mudders" or some such.
I for one appreciate your ideas and information and hope you try out NWA and perhaps even give more of your new MUD'er insight to our staff.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:40 PM   #9
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Most muds do offer some kind of ooc or newbie channel and it's not uncommon to be greeted on it as soon as you log in to let you know it's there if you want to ask any questions. However AFAIK most of the RPI type muds don't have this kind of thing for various reasons.

Some muds have a downloadable manual or perhaps a wiki or something similar, but traditionally muds have provided this information in the form of help files in game.

While the mud I represent is still very new and may not be quite what you are looking for we do have a 70+ page pdf manual, an ooc 'newbie' channel in game, and you don't have to be logged in to read our forums. We also have one of the best (IMHO!) web clients aimed at helping players new to muds get into the game.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:36 PM   #10
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

I'll second Orrin's post on best web client, his is hands down (in my opinion) the best out there.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:04 PM   #11
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

I will use this post as my introduction, I'm new to MUDs and new to the forum here too. So hi everyone!

I have to say after searching for a suitable MUD that appealed to me (I much prefer a sci-fi/future setting to fantasy) it had to be a new MUD without well established PCs, I was lucky I found Atonement and have to say I recommend it highly. Everything about it is amazing, if it's amazing now then what's planned just looks even more RPIingly amazing.. my experience as a newbie so far has been very positive, a friendly welcome, I am really enjoying the game.

Votes for Atonement a big thumbs up, +1 from me!
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Old 03-09-2010, 06:47 PM   #12
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Wow. I was going to suggest the MUD that I run (Atonement) to you, but it looks like some others beat me to it. I'll try to keep this brief, and I wish you the best of luck in your journey!

The Difference between RPI and "RPE", by Jaunt:
RPIs generally are built from the RPI Engine (a modified version of the DIKU Engine). They are all a little different (for instance, Atonement does have both a flash web-chat client and an in-game newbie-help chat channel), but they all have "permanent death" as a feature and a myriad of roleplaying tools that most other games lack. RPEs are a much broader genre and can be more "hack-and-slash" or "more roleplaying-focused" than others. Some of the more prominent of these games are NewWorlds, Carrion Fields and Threshold RPG.

The Objective Difference Between the Four Active RPIs, by Jaunt:
Harshlands: Most antiquated code, expansive world, small (spread out) playerbase, fantasy-themed.
Shadows of Isildur: Expansive world, somewhat antiquated code, moderately-sized (but spread out) playerbase, Tolkien-themed.
Armageddon: Expansive world, antiquated code, large (but spread out) playerbase, fantasy-themed (Dune/Dark Sun).
Atonement: Condensed world, fresh code/engine, moderately-sized (consolidated) playerbase, sci-fi/mystery/survival-horror theme. Still in ALPHA phase.

Harshlands is still kicking, somehow. Shadows of Isildur is going through its own tribulation right now and has lost a lot of staff, but is still active. Armageddon is even longer-running than SOI/Hlands, and has (by far) the largest playerbase of any RPI. Harshlands code is pretty aged, ARM's code is very solid but has some ancient-feeling features (no color options, spammy room echoes when pcs look at each other, etc). Atonement's code is new and we take a lot of pride in the new RPI Engine, but it isn't without quirks and bugs, as we've only been open for two months.

All four games have their own distinct flavor. If you like complex storytelling, mystery, and survival horror - I would encourage you to give our new game a try. If you prefer fantasy, then ARM and SOI might be your games. If you find RPIs to not be to your liking, then you might find that you prefer one of the RPEs that I mentioned a little higher up.
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Old 03-09-2010, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Oh yes, before I forget! Maiden Desmodus is awesome. It'd probably be classified as an RPE, too. Really dig Orrin's client and Wade's unique fantasy storyline. I'm far too busy to play MD (or any game not my own), but I thought that I'd give a shout out to what I know is a quality game.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:33 PM   #14
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonathinFrye View Post
The Difference between RPI and "RPE", by Jaunt:
RPIs generally are built from the RPI Engine (a modified version of the DIKU Engine). They are all a little different (for instance, Atonement does have both a flash web-chat client and an in-game newbie-help chat channel), but they all have "permanent death" as a feature and a myriad of roleplaying tools that most other games lack.
That's not entirely true. Of the 11 RPIs to have ever opened (be it Alpha, Beta or fully), only 4* of them have originally used the RPI Engine variant of the Harshlands code (*see my next note below). The most frequently used code was the original Harshlands modification itself (unless you count the modifications to the code made by FEM as a separate sub-category) as it was used for 5 games, the most successful of which was SoI which Traithe reworked into the RPI Engine. Only if you count games which did not or have yet to open does the RPI Engine actually become the most commonly used code for making RPI MUDs. In such a case, the original HL code ends up with 6 games based on it while the SoI RPI Engine variant has had at least 20 but only if you discount the Argila-variant of the RPI Engine which was really just a "cleaned up" version of SoI's release.

Quote:
The Objective Difference Between the Four Active RPIs, by Jaunt:
Harshlands: Most antiquated code, expansive world, small (spread out) playerbase, fantasy-themed.
Again, not entirely true. In 2004 Harshlands decided to begin using the RPI Engine but integrating some of their old code into it to make it a hybrid of the two. They retained some things like the soft reboot, literacy and the accounts system while removing the right/left hand feature, disabled ranged weapons, modified weapon types to match their traditional categories and made other changes to keep the code consistent with their world.

Quote:
Shadows of Isildur: Expansive world, somewhat antiquated code, moderately-sized (but spread out) playerbase, Tolkien-themed.
The code on SoI is hardly antiquated as it's been consistently added to since it opened. They've gone through different variations on the code since way back when they opened and later when Traithe released the RPI Engine in 2003. However, if by antiquated you mean there hasn't been any new codebase developed for RPIs in the better part of a decade you would be partially correct.

To date there have been 3 codebase lineages used to create RPIs. Armageddon represents one. Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur and its descendants represent a second. Southlands represents the third and newest (and by newest I mean nearly a decade old as well). However, there there are two to three more new codebases in the works (of which TSOY would be one) but none are near to completion so far as I've heard.

Finally, there are five, not four, active RPIs. The aforementioned Southlands is still technically open last I looked. Additionally, Black Sands is a sixth RPI that's technically open though not active right now as a result of some bug problems they were apparently fixing (as I understand it, their coder was without internet for the last few months which is why they had the down time). They are in an open beta-testing phase and last time I checked could be logged into by players. There's also a seventh set to open in August of this year.

Jason aka Falco

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Old 03-09-2010, 10:55 PM   #15
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonathinFrye View Post
The Difference between RPI and "RPE", by Jaunt:
RPIs generally are built from the RPI Engine (a modified version of the DIKU Engine). They are all a little different (for instance, Atonement does have both a flash web-chat client and an in-game newbie-help chat channel), but they all have "permanent death" as a feature and a myriad of roleplaying tools that most other games lack. RPEs are a much broader genre and can be more "hack-and-slash" or "more roleplaying-focused" than others. Some of the more prominent of these games are NewWorlds, Carrion Fields and Threshold RPG.
This is a crock of crap. I'm not sure who Jaunt is, but they have zero clue as to what a roleplay enforced game is nor a clue about NWA or Threshold (not sure about Carrion Fields), both of which are heavy roleplaying games and have tons of roleplaying tools. The only difference between RPI and RPE is the person using the term. The 100+ players on NWA will agree that the roleplay is intensive and more so than some game named primarily after a christian holy rite. Give me a break Frye, don't start quoting these moronics to again claim this RPI term and the games that follow it are somehow the roleplay utopia. Barf.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:42 AM   #16
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

I am Jaunt (my user-handle on my game). I have played all of the games that I mentioned above, including yours. I've not attempted to state that RPIs are roleplay utopia. I have stated that there is a lot more variance between games that folks in the community refer to as Roleplay-Enforced than games that people tend to refer to as Roleplaying-Intensive. I think that my message is pretty clear that the reason why there is more variety is because there are simply a larger number of "RPE" games than there are "RPI" games. My reference to roleplaying tools infers that there are more coded features revolving around emote/speech/position/etc in most RPIs than there are in most RPEs.

Do you ever see me making personal attacks on the forums over such silly dogma? I support games like yours and Threshold; I spent quite some time fighting for Threshold's notability on wikipedia not so long back, actually. I'm friendly and generally helpful to the community at large. I was attempting to be informative, since that was the nature of this thread. Your response is a bit underwhelming and unnecessary, honestly.

</derail>

Sorry to leave out Southlands on the list of active RPIs; I was not aware that it was still active, and it is the game with which I am least personally familiar. Black Sands is an interesting high-fantasy theme and has potential as well - I do hope that the head programmer will be able to get it back up and running again.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:32 AM   #17
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

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I am Jaunt (my user-handle on my game).
You seriously quoted yourself from your own game when trying to show an unbiased discussion of RPE's and games that call themselves RPI's?
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:26 AM   #18
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

It wasn't a quote. It was my entirely original reply on this thread. I was just being cute. Please stop being antagonistic and derailing.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:45 AM   #19
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

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This is a crock of crap. I'm not sure who Jaunt is, but they have zero clue as to what a roleplay enforced game is nor a clue about NWA or Threshold (not sure about Carrion Fields), both of which are heavy roleplaying games and have tons of roleplaying tools. The only difference between RPI and RPE is the person using the term. The 100+ players on NWA will agree that the roleplay is intensive and more so than some game named primarily after a christian holy rite. Give me a break Frye, don't start quoting these moronics to again claim this RPI term and the games that follow it are somehow the roleplay utopia. Barf.
Your hysterics over the use of the term RPI never cease to both amuse and frustrate.

Good grief. This has been going on for upwards of 3 years now. I don't even play muds anymore, but I still read this forum partly for the entertainment of watching you get your panties in a wad over something you know very little about.

It's quite okay, obviously, for you to make blanket statements about what RPIs are and aren't from your extremely limited playing time on them. When others do the same for your "genre" of mud, you get quite upset and take offense.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:15 PM   #20
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Re: The problem with muds Aka Hello

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Your hysterics over the use of the term RPI never cease to both amuse and frustrate.

Good grief. This has been going on for upwards of 3 years now. I don't even play muds anymore, but I still read this forum partly for the entertainment...
If it keeps you on the forums and perhaps brings you back to playing, then you are welcome.
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