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Old 01-08-2013, 04:17 PM   #1
dark acacia
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Games that already have everyone they want

Ever try out an enforced roleplay game that boasts excellent plots and campaigns, and then you join and are told to present yourself in a scene, only to discover that no one really wants you around or pays attention to your character when you try to interact?

This is something at the other end of problematic roleplay environments. I've already said elsewhere that a sure sign of a stagnating roleplay environment is when people pair up and retreat into private romance roleplay; or, in a PK game get into semi-in-character bickering over pointless drama that never gets anywhere; or, in a PvE game just start chit-chatting in party channel while tanking mobs. A game with an already thriving environment might turn instead into a situation where the players are just so comfortable with each other that it is assumed that new players can't possibly live up to their expectations, and are just not given a chance to participate.

I see this most often in games where the action of a scene is contained in one room where @emits are used to narrate location changes and people pose their actions, where people don't actually type N to go north in order to continue the story. Sending an introductory pose is mandatory for participation, but that does not mean that the other people who see the pose will respond. In games with room exits, people will just get up and go someplace else if they don't want to bother with you.

I've had it happen to me twice in the same game, on two separate occasions and characters, where I'd be told to go to location X where a scene would soon start; the three-pose rule would be in force, I'd make my introductory pose, and perhaps 30 minutes later I'd get to pose again and be stuck on how to proceed after my first pose was ignored until I finally managed to choke something out (what do you do when you go to a party and people pretend that you're not there?). Later I was asked why I bothered showing up if I wasn't going to participate.

I think another sign that this kind of situation exists is when someone posts on the announcement board that they're leaving because their friends no longer play, even though there still are other people actively involved (or trying to be involved) in the game. Again, it's an unwillingness on someone's part to include new people to their comfortable and familiar environment and a fear that things won't be as good as in the "old days."

While newbie exclusion is unhelpful for boosting participation and retaining newbies, it seems to me that it's just a natural reaction for some people. They have a circle of friends, the circle has had a lot of experiences together, and after a while a newcomer just can't seem to fit because they won't ever have the same experiences as the group. It would be interesting to take a look at a game's record for a certain period of time to see how many new people managed to get involved and become part of the community, and how many people looked like they just puttered around for a while and never really seemed to have a place.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:51 PM   #2
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

Are you implying that the MU* community is not inclusive, welcoming and friendly towards new players?

Edit: I forgot the good stuff is behind registration, but I think the sentiment still stands

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Old 01-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #3
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

No, I'm not implying that at all. The point was made clear that there are times when people just want to stick with their own kind and see newbies as intruders, which they politely dismiss.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:37 AM   #4
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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No, I'm not implying that at all. The point was made clear that there are times when people just want to stick with their own kind and see newbies as intruders, which they politely dismiss.
I've played many muds (sometimes as an alt of an established character, sometimes as a true newbie) and found this to be a fairly common thing. It's not that the players only want to be with their friends, so screw you. They just don't want or need the new character for anything. You have no idea whether the 15th new character you've seen log in today is going to stick around and be there tomorrow, so you don't know whether it's worth the time you could be doing other things to try to form some kind of relationship with this newbie. Especially since an RP relationship with a newbie is fairly one-sided. They can give you entertainment, but you don't advance your character or gain any power, influence, or assistance by being friends with a newbie unless that newbie sticks around a few months/years to become someone powerful and worth knowing (assuming your relationship with them lasts that long).

In an RP environment, it's on the newbie to prove himself and keep at it. Assert himself, jump into things, do well, and make a good impression. And most importantly, stick around, so people get used to seeing you and start to accept that you'll be there tomorrow. If you're discouraged and never come back because people ignore you for your first day and don't bend over backwards to welcome the new roleplayer, you're exactly the type of player people can't count on to be there tomorrow, because the second people aren't leaping to entertain you and fawning over your RP, you'll get bored or discouraged and disappear.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:00 PM   #5
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

I think Snowtroll makes a fairly valid point in regards to not knowing if a newbie is really going to stick around. Aarchon isn't an RP-enforced MUD, and I've still gotten burned out some days from helping new players. When you get 5-10 new people logging in each day, each one asking a ton of questions that are answered in help files, and then logging out 10 minutes later... it can be frustrating. I think we do a good job of answering questions for newbies and making them feel welcome/wanted, but I imagine in an RP environment where you are doing much more than just fielding questions... it can be a bit hard to interact with new players who don't make a strong effort themselves.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:34 PM   #6
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

I have to disagree that the reason people stick with their friends is because newbies don't often stick around. Newbie retention in a game, and especially an enforced role play game, is everyone's job. If someone shows up for a scene and tries to participate, the worst that the regulars can do is overlook him because of an attitude of "oh, he'll be gone tomorrow anyway." By ignoring new players, you ensure that they won't be back. If someone really wasn't going to stick around regardless of whether he is included, they probably wouldn't get through the entire character creation process or make more than a feeble attempt at anything beyond that.

No, I still think a large part of the problem is an established pack mentality. It's an unconscious will to guard against outsiders because they were not participating before (in the good old days) and can't possibly live up to the group's expectations now. Perhaps it's even an unwillingness to replace a friend who stopped playing.

There's always some comment about the newbie having to make some kind of effort in order to be included, and it seems like there can never be enough effort to get included. How many scenes must a newbie sit through and pose with no response before he has demonstrated that he put in enough effort?
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:25 PM   #7
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

It's actually a combination of not knowing whether a newbie will be around tomorrow, and a newbie being generally worthless. A new, non-established character doesn't benefit an established character very much. You don't grow in power and influence by befriending the latest newbie. He can't help you get anywhere in the game. If he's not interesting, entertaining, and beneficial to know and interact with, why would established players waste the very limited number of hours they have to play chatting with a newbie? Plus yes, he might be gone tomorrow.

I'd even go so far as to say that it's actually bad roleplaying to bend over backward and do things you wouldn't normally do to make a new player feel welcome. Why would a character who's hell-bent on advancement and getting ahead every other day of his life suddenly waste two hours entertaining a newbie, just to be nice and help the mud out by retaining a new player?
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:35 PM   #8
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

So what is a new player to do in a scene-based enforced role play game where the established characters can find no reason to include him?

You seem to agree that there are games which already have everyone they want. Don't assume, then, that it is because new players expect everyone to entertain them; a newbie who really does want to try to fit in would want to provide as much entertainment for the group as each other person there.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:42 PM   #9
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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Originally Posted by dark acacia View Post
Ever try out an enforced roleplay game that boasts excellent plots and campaigns, and then you join and are told to present yourself in a scene, only to discover that no one really wants you around or pays attention to your character when you try to interact?
...
While newbie exclusion is unhelpful for boosting participation and retaining newbies, it seems to me that it's just a natural reaction for some people. They have a circle of friends, the circle has had a lot of experiences together, and after a while a newcomer just can't seem to fit because they won't ever have the same experiences as the group. It would be interesting to take a look at a game's record for a certain period of time to see how many new people managed to get involved and become part of the community, and how many people looked like they just puttered around for a while and never really seemed to have a place.
This is a great comment and found in all established games especially ones with smaller playerbases. I even find this attitude on NWA and while some players are excellent at involving new characters, SnowTroll also makes good points on why this sometimes doesn't happen.

I have, however, seen brand new players engage in excellent roleplay and command a notable following based on their roleplay. I'm not talking about spotlighting style of roleplay which is a whole different problem.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:25 AM   #10
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

So far, I got through the first and last post. Yay me! Anywhosits, I've dealt with this problem quite a few times. I stick pretty exclusively to the MUDs with MUSHy emote and plot standards, and when you're a new player trying to make your way into a clique where the IC characters probably have so much romance, intrigue, and back story already made...

It's intimidating, and sometimes it's hard to make them notice you. To be quite honest, the only solution is to do 'look at me, look at me!' emotes. Do something to get their attention - anything. Trip, pick your nose, sneeze on somebody - there's a whole plethora of things you can do to -force- your way into a scene, and sometimes that's just what you have to do.

In an RP Enforced game, when a newbie comes into a scene and poses something about standing idly in the corner, watching everything with curiosity, I'm not going to know how to interact with them. Am I going to just drop everything right now and go to that person, because OOCly I know they are a new player? Not likely - I'll try to think up an excuse to include you, but...

If you walk into a scene emoting how your character is yelling behind him at a fat bar wench, telling her that she wasn't worth two coins... THAT will give me a few more excuses for my character to ICly approach yours.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:55 PM   #11
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

You're probably right about newbies needing to make themselves highly visible. I think maybe if I tried a predicament whereby my character enters a scene stark naked and says that someone stole my character's clothes, or maybe there was a poorly-placed bucket of clothing-disintegrating acid someplace, it might work. I should try that sometime.

Still, for some people (like me), it is kind of intimidating to go to a brand new place all alone full of strangers and then do something completely over-the-top in order to attract attention.

Yet if a newbie does something like that and it DOESN'T work, then there you go, what do you do? I've had it happen to me where people would crab at me over tells or pages for hogging a scene.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:59 PM   #12
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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You're probably right about newbies needing to make themselves highly visible. I think maybe if I tried a predicament whereby my character enters a scene stark naked and says that someone stole my character's clothes, or maybe there was a poorly-placed bucket of clothing-disintegrating acid someplace, it might work. I should try that sometime.

Still, for some people (like me), it is kind of intimidating to go to a brand new place all alone full of strangers and then do something completely over-the-top in order to attract attention.

Yet if a newbie does something like that and it DOESN'T work, then there you go, what do you do? I've had it happen to me where people would crab at me over tells or pages for hogging a scene.
I'm not sure that I agree that a newbie needs to be highly visible or have to be anything other than themselves in the right environment. Many, many games always get that "we've been here forever" clique that gets set in their ways, but a good game will always be looking for new blood because that's a chance to do something new... even if it only lasts a few hours and that character is never seen again.

It's tough to go into a new game and then have to feel like you need to make yourself stand out to get noticed or even acknowledged. I would also not prefer to do this since it would probably make me act out of character, so I don't think I'd encourage that. If you naturally steal the scene, though, that's awesome!

Seriously, though, there's games that are filled with people who are AFK or barely paying attention or not that interested in playing with new people, but I fully believe that every game has players who are interested in newbies. The real quest might simply be finding those particular people and forget the rest!
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:21 PM   #13
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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I'm not sure that I agree that a newbie needs to be highly visible or have to be anything other than themselves in the right environment. Many, many games always get that "we've been here forever" clique that gets set in their ways, but a good game will always be looking for new blood because that's a chance to do something new... even if it only lasts a few hours and that character is never seen again.

It's tough to go into a new game and then have to feel like you need to make yourself stand out to get noticed or even acknowledged. I would also not prefer to do this since it would probably make me act out of character, so I don't think I'd encourage that. If you naturally steal the scene, though, that's awesome!

Seriously, though, there's games that are filled with people who are AFK or barely paying attention or not that interested in playing with new people, but I fully believe that every game has players who are interested in newbies. The real quest might simply be finding those particular people and forget the rest!
I agree with you in all of this. I find it uncomfortable to try to make myself stand out to be noticed, as I prefer to get the lay of the land when I enter a scene and then ease myself in. I do find games where it's as tough as anything to be included, and I have found games where the regulars are so inclusive that a person who doesn't get included is probably being arrogant.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:50 AM   #14
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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I'm not sure that I agree that a newbie needs to be highly visible or have to be anything other than themselves in the right environment. Many, many games always get that "we've been here forever" clique that gets set in their ways, but a good game will always be looking for new blood because that's a chance to do something new... even if it only lasts a few hours and that character is never seen again.

It's tough to go into a new game and then have to feel like you need to make yourself stand out to get noticed or even acknowledged. I would also not prefer to do this since it would probably make me act out of character, so I don't think I'd encourage that. If you naturally steal the scene, though, that's awesome!
I'm all for this. It's actually kind of annoying when a total newbie shows on a game up doing something over the top, that usually doesn't quite fit the mud (either the world and lore or the preferred playing style), essentially begging for attention. You don't start a mud at level 100 with a billion hit points. Likewise, you don't start in the roleplay scene as a dominating force that draws everyone who sees you to interact with you in a meaningful fashion.

When you find a game you like (even if the players don't rush to bend over backward to include you), stick around and grow slowly. Be present in scenes and contribute however you can, and if it doesn't get you instant results, keep at it for a few weeks. Let the playerbase see that you're still there day after day, spend some time interacting one on one or in smaller group settings to slowly grow your list of contacts, be seen working, and in a few weeks, you'll be fine.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #15
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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I'm all for this. It's actually kind of annoying when a total newbie shows on a game up doing something over the top, that usually doesn't quite fit the mud (either the world and lore or the preferred playing style), essentially begging for attention. You don't start a mud at level 100 with a billion hit points. Likewise, you don't start in the roleplay scene as a dominating force that draws everyone who sees you to interact with you in a meaningful fashion.
What would you consider over the top? Because quite honestly, I'm starting to think anything over the top for you might be funny and interesting to me. I don't know why people have this stigma about 'Oh, that was too over the top'. Essentially, we are actors in a virtual world. There are very few times when we can sit and do nothing but readjust our clothing, look around at the people, and make a few words on the side - which is what a lot of new players do, hoping they'll get noticed and be thrown a bone. But as actors, we have to be doing something in each scene, we have to be providing the audience something to work with - not the other way around. This applies doubly so for any RPers trying to be noticed in the scene.

Coming in chased by a bar-maid, tripping into somebody, picking your nose, muttering to yourself - these are all natural things which the audience can work with, and they can fit within your character. There are a few actions which yes, can get annoyingly contrived, such as coming in crying, screaming, or anything really 'loud'.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:17 PM   #16
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

I readily admit that opinions vary, and there's not really a bright line that can be drawn (plus, any bright line would vary from mud to mud). In some muds, entering a crowded room yelling at an invisible barmaid or prostitute not actually being played by a player, controlled by an admin, or represented by a mob would break rules or at the very least, divert from the normal style the players there use. In others, while not technically against rules or convention, that sort of thing would be seen as a newbie begging for attention when there are real roleplay issues going on among the rest of the players that don't require artificially trying to draw the spotlight to themselves. A lot of players would see that newbie as ignorant of the "real" rp issues going on, an annoying distraction from the "real" roleplaying, and a shameless attention seeker trying to draw the spotlight from actual issues to his own self-promoting rp as he makes up invisible characters just so he can show off his poses and speech.

I'm not saying newbies should relegate themselves to staring with interest from the corner, clearing their throat, and fidgeting with their clothes trying to get attention in subtle ways. There's no harm in walking up to someone and saying hi like a normal person who doesn't pick fights with invisible barmaids, or slowly building up your status by making friends in small groups and one on one encounters between the larger scenes, and getting yourself seen by the general playerbase over the course of a few weeks so people come to recognize and accept you as a presence.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:34 PM   #17
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

Well active imms that get the newbies together can help. As well as having some more experienced players that go out of their way to befriend newbies. Personally I love interacting with newbies, the sooner I interact and start RPing them. The sooner I can start influencing them and get them on my side. Thus making myself stronger by virtue of more allies.

I think the people that exclude newbies are losing the political aspect of an RPi game. Their side stagnates while their rivals grow stronger. Although I admit I have experienced a feeling like exclusion when I was low level, but often times thats just a matter of the other players are dealing with some new epic level liche causing havoc and here I am a low level newbie that would die in one or two hits from even the fodder. That kind of exclusion is unavoidable though.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:32 PM   #18
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

I think a lot of the time, new players just show up at the wrong time. For me, the wrong time would be:
1. Any time someone shows up having no indication at all, that they've made any attempt to read the docs. I am not their game manual, and I'm not about to let anyone treat me like one. If someone shows up expecting me to tell them how to SIT or type NORTH to go to a room in the north..then I'll just RP around their existence.
1a. If they show up and DO know the syntax, but ignore the environment, I'll RP around their existence. By "ignore" I don't mean "are having trouble keeping up." I mean intentionally ignoring the fact that it's an RPI. Such as the new player who does this:

The new guy enters from the west.
The new guy says, in english, 'heh were do i get exp"
The new guy looks at you.
The new guy attacks you!

Obviously, he isn't looking to play the game he's in, and I don't need to waste my time convincing him otherwise.

2. By bad timing, I might also mean - the group that he's walked in on, is in the middle of something "significant" and some new person showing up needing OOC guidance is going to just mess up a scene that might've already been going on for 2 hours and we're trying to wind things up. Like maybe - the head of the city archer's society has just captured an evil witch, and the king's captain is in the middle of interrogating him, while the witch's three recent victims are in the process of being healed by the city healer, who is on the verge of collapse due to exhaustion. This is really NOT the best time for Joe Newguy to show up looking for a job interview.

It's unfortunate, but really, timing actually means something when you're dealing with text. You can't have conversations AND churn out emotes, as quickly as you can act them out in real life. So when you're in a group, each of whom has different real-life time constraints, or even different time zones, the scene will sometimes have to take priority and interferences to the scene will just have to wait - or be ignored.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:04 AM   #19
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

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I think a lot of the time, new players just show up at the wrong time. For me, the wrong time would be:
1. Any time someone shows up having no indication at all, that they've made any attempt to read the docs. I am not their game manual, and I'm not about to let anyone treat me like one. If someone shows up expecting me to tell them how to SIT or type NORTH to go to a room in the north..then I'll just RP around their existence.
1a. If they show up and DO know the syntax, but ignore the environment, I'll RP around their existence. By "ignore" I don't mean "are having trouble keeping up." I mean intentionally ignoring the fact that it's an RPI. Such as the new player who does this:

The new guy enters from the west.
The new guy says, in english, 'heh were do i get exp"
The new guy looks at you.
The new guy attacks you!

Obviously, he isn't looking to play the game he's in, and I don't need to waste my time convincing him otherwise.

2. By bad timing, I might also mean - the group that he's walked in on, is in the middle of something "significant" and some new person showing up needing OOC guidance is going to just mess up a scene that might've already been going on for 2 hours and we're trying to wind things up. Like maybe - the head of the city archer's society has just captured an evil witch, and the king's captain is in the middle of interrogating him, while the witch's three recent victims are in the process of being healed by the city healer, who is on the verge of collapse due to exhaustion. This is really NOT the best time for Joe Newguy to show up looking for a job interview.

It's unfortunate, but really, timing actually means something when you're dealing with text. You can't have conversations AND churn out emotes, as quickly as you can act them out in real life. So when you're in a group, each of whom has different real-life time constraints, or even different time zones, the scene will sometimes have to take priority and interferences to the scene will just have to wait - or be ignored.
Yes, obviously there are bad seeds who don't know what their doing and won't RTM. These days the majority of text multiplayer games will have something at chargen telling people how to do the basic things they need to know, so there's usually no excuse.

What I am bringing up is when a new player, trying in earnest to become a good contributor to an RPI game, is rejected because the old guard is already comfortable with each other and doesn't need anyone new.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:14 AM   #20
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Re: Games that already have everyone they want

I don't see that happen. The only time I ever see new players who -try- be ignored, is when there's "something going on" at the moment and that something needs to be addressed, and the new player's newness detracts from the addressing of the something. Like in the example I mentioned. The new player could be a really awesome RPer - heck it could even be a veteran to the game with just a new *character* and not even be a new player.

But if he's showing up for the first time looking for work, while something significant is going on, they'll need to accept that the plotline doesn't really have a place for his character seeking employment at the moment. On the other hand, they -could- sit and listen, and demonstrate an interest in the scene, and eventually someone will attempt to draw him into it. His reaction to that, will determine whether or not he actually gets involved.

Such is the nature of an RPI. That's been my experience, as a veteran playing a character involved in things, as a veteran playing a brand new character right out of chargen, and as a new player (when I was a new player).
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