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Old 04-15-2004, 04:34 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,03:25)
Maybe you remember that debate back in 1997?
Good lord KaVir. Are you ever going to realize that this is why you have become a laughing stock? "Remember this debate from 1997?" How about the debate RIGHT NOW. Do you have a problem staying in the present?

Lay off the google groups and stay on topic.

RPI *is* a trendy acronym. The fact that is has come "back" in style doesn't make it any less trendy. It is no different than suit coats with three buttons, bell bottoms, seersucker suits, horn-rimmed glasses, or any other retro-style that becomes trendy.

Please stop dredging up ancient discussions in lieu of actually staying on topic. Please stop misquoting people, quoting them out of context, and using their words in arguments they are not involved in for your own purposes.

In other words, have some integrity.

I don't know what happened to you over the years, KaVir, but it is truly a sad sight to behold.

I am completely done with this topic and unfortuantely done with you. I'll have to join all the other people who used to love reading your opinions but can no longer tolerate your insanities.

I'm not thrilled about it, however. This is up there with Barry Bonds using roids or Pete Rose gambling. It is always depressing to see someone you once admired let themselves fall into such a disappointing state.
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Old 04-15-2004, 06:45 AM   #42
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"Remember this debate from 1997?" How about the debate RIGHT NOW. Do you have a problem staying in the present?  Lay off the google groups and stay on topic.
You claimed that "RPI is indeed the latest trendy phrase- like it or not. To argue otherwise is to descend into silliness and absurdity." - and specifically asked me to provide a citation to prove how long it had been around.  Then when I provide the citation you asked for, you insult me for not "staying in the present"?

The citation I provided might not go back 10+ years, but it still proves that (1) the term "RPI" was already well established 7 years ago, and (2) someone explained the term to you 7 years ago.  So where exactly do you get this "latest trendy phrase" thing from?

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I don't know what happened to you over the years, KaVir
Nothing happened to me - I have alrways responded this way to people who post inaccurate or inconsistant statements.  I've generally ignore your posts in the past because (1) I usually agree with your views, and (2) you're extremely tiring to argue with, as you take every slightest disagreement so personally.  This time however you specifically joined this thread by disagreeing with my points on an issue which (1) I knew I was right about, and (2) I had already explained earlier in the thread.

You didn't like it 7 years ago, and you obviously don't like it now, but the fact still remains that RPI has an established meaning for a specific type of mud.  And no amount of personal insults are going to change that fact.
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:00 AM   #43
 
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Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2004,19:22)
This issue is not about me or my game, it is about a small clique of selfish people trying to act superior to others. They have invented an extremely arbitrary set of concepts that are no more about role playing than choice of chip set or operating system.
----
The two things I object to most are:

1) A small group of people who act like they have the right and the power to CONTROL an acronym. They don't.

2) The attributes they have chosen are so arbitrary and irrelevant to actual role playing that it is the height of absurdity to claim such attributes are vital to any type of role playing. If someone said you have to run Red Hat Linux to be a PK mud, I'd be critical of such a comment as well.
I have to agree with this.  I myself have never seen any formal definition of RPI.  I've also used the the terms RPE RPI RPS RPF RPGM in many posts over the years after defining them up front and then using them as shorthand.  I was nevertheless suprised by a response that in essence declared they shouldn't be used that way and meant something other than what I said they meant.  

It does remind me very much of the MU* term and it's attempted use.  Or an even better example...


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Originally Posted by
      A MUD is not goal-oriented; it has no beginning or end,
       no 'score', and no notion of 'winning' or 'success'.
       In short, even though user of MUDs are commonly called
       players, a MUD isn't a really a game at all.

       A MUD is extensible from within; a user can add new objects
       to the database ...  - Pavel Curtis 1993.
Were the people who ran muds in the TinyMud family attempting to distinguish and separate themselves from the Diku and LPMuds by redefining MUD and then later inventing MU*?  
You bet they were.  

I'm not going to get into the elitist snob argument.  The point being that arguing over the use of an acronym, and one that is not at all well defined nor recognized by the general mud community, is rather petty and ignores any points about role-play a poster is making.  

Anyway I've recently moved on to using the terms dwarves, hobbits and elves when describing types of role-players or non-role-players.  

Just for the record... IIRC this is my various freewheeling uses of the acronyms over the breadth of my posts.

RPI - role-play immersive/intensive same as RPE or RPW (hobbits)
RPE - role-play versus the environment (hobbits)
RPW - role-play versus the world (hobbits)
RPF - role-play freestyle (elves)
RPS - role-play storytelling (elves)
RPGM - role-play game mastered (elves-hobbits)
The rest - non-role-players, light avatarism, Hack-n-slashers, roll-players (dwarves, and some hobbits)

I'll probably continue my loose use...  
And I've always been upfront concerning my distaste of Hobbits...  That's where opinion comes in.  Consider the source.

It does remind me a bit of the recent post over on MudMagic exhorting us to come to a "mud community consensus" and agree to redefine the term MUD to mean multi-user domain or dimension, and NOT dungeon.   Like nobody has ever dictated that we use dungeon or chat kingdom or domain or dimension or shared hallucination in the first place.  

So until RPI is trademarked, I look on it the same way I look on Pavel Curtis's quote about what a mud is.  Yeah errm whatver.  (Note: I don't believe that is his position now BTW, but I may be wrong.)

Yeah... Threshold is an RPI/RPE/RPW type of mud.  Quite similar to Armeggedon and Harshlands.  That's all a player needs to know.    ;-P
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:31 AM   #44
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Were the people who ran muds in the TinyMud family attempting to distinguish and separate themselves from the Diku and LPMuds by redefining MUD and then later inventing MU*?
You bet they were.
The acronyms like MUSH/MURPE/etc were attempts to try and differentiate themselves from MUDs. RPI is the reverse - it is a specialised classification of MUD type, just like PK muds, RP muds, or HnS muds. It might be poorly named, but (like other equally poor-fitting acronyms such as MUD or MOO) it has been around long enough to stick.

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It does remind me a bit of the recent post over on MudMagic exhorting us to come to a "mud community consensus" and agree to redefine the term MUD to mean multi-user domain or dimension, and NOT dungeon.
Right - which is why I think it would be equally silly to try and refine "RPI" when it has been around for so many years.
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:02 PM   #45
 
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,10:31)
The acronyms like MUSH/MURPE/etc were attempts to try and differentiate themselves from MUDs.
Actually the whole TinyMush, TinyMuck, TinyMage, TinyMuse, TeenyMud came about merely to distinguish a particular implementation and likely as a courtesy to the prior authors.  Same reason we have Diku, Circle, ROM, etal.  Long before Diku existed and the Tiny people decided to divorce themselves from hack-n-slash play.  You can imagine the confusion if the Circle or Merc authors called themselve Diku 2.0 and Diku 3.1.   Interestingly enough in LPs just that sort of confusion happened.

MURPE... well AFAIK I think though I'm not sure that Aristotle started that one.  hehe.  There's a lot of muds calling themselves MURPEs out there today.  I've never seen a definition of MURPE either nor have I seen anyone suggest that someone shouldn't be using the term MURPE because they don't meet some criteria.  Have you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,10:31)
 RPI is the reverse - it is a specialised classification of MUD type, just like PK muds, RP muds, or HnS muds.  It might be poorly named, but (like other equally poor-fitting acronyms such as MUD or MOO) it has been around long enough to stick.
I think you just made the argument against how it's (RPI) being treated here.  There are no specific criteria defining exactly what PK, HnS or RP muds are, other than what the acronyms themselves suggest.   PK for instance is implemented quite differently on WODMush than it is on GodWars.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,10:31)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It does remind me a bit of the recent post over on MudMagic exhorting us to come to a "mud community consensus" and agree to redefine the term MUD to mean multi-user domain or dimension, and NOT dungeon.
Right - which is why I think it would be equally silly to try and refine "RPI" when it has been around for so many years.
No I think it's exactly like Curtis's definition of muds.  At least Curtis actually published his arbitrary criteria.  I've yet to see any published definition of RPI.   Yeah I even searched the sites of those muds.  So if I missed it, maybe you can point it out.  

And you know I've been around long enough and involved in enough different styles of games to know it just isn't a "well-recognized term" in the mud community at large.   And it's not simple stubborness and contrariness that I don't use it, because frankly I only see a small handful of people using it.  A smaller handful than those using MURPE even.

Now much as I might respect Pavel Curtis, if he'd logged into my mud and said "Hey this ain't a mud, because I can't create any objects and it has a score command", I would have told him to frag off.  Same thing goes for RPIers.  There are many role-play immersive or intensive games that do have channels and score commands.   More to the point it's an extraordinarily poor choice, because I sure as heck ain't going to type out RPI, more than once in a post whether I mean role-play immersive or intensive.

I don't even know the criteria for this RPI, but I do know Mr. Curtis's criteria for muds.  So I don't even know whether to reject it or not.  What I do know is that whether channels exist or not has very little to do with role-play and immersion and is just as arbitrary as defining muds as those not having a score command.  And yes just as obviously it's being used as some sort of proprietary term.  And not some friendly distinction for the purposes of discussion.   I.E. This thread.  Isn't that exactly what's being argued here?  

There's a big difference between someone calling their server a new made up name to describe the activity in that game (i.e. MUCK - multi-user chat kingdom) and telling others who happen to use that same acronym to describe something else (for example me using MUCK as multi-user creative killing ... hmm that's a nice one) that they ain't a MUCK and shouldn't use it.  Besides as your probably aware, many descendents of MUCK have as little to do with Chat than many MUDs have to do with Dungeons.

Let me try to drive the not so subtle point home.  Differentiation is fine.  Invent as many acronyms as you want.  Call your game a MUD and say it's a multi-user dimension.  Great.  But don't tell people that someone owns the acronym RPI and it has a well-defined meaning.  Or that anyone using RPI differently is trying to intentionally confuse people, because they aren't and it don't have a well-defined meaning.  Or more importantly that RPI should PROPERLY be used if your mud meets criteria X, Y, and Z.  
Because if you do, your going to have to come up with some precedent for that.  

What other term in common use in the mud community has only a specific meaning and not a generalized meaning?   No not even Mushes, Mucks, and MOOs have specific criteria in that regard besides simply acknowledging actually formal derivative history or inspiration.
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:39 PM   #46
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There are no specific criteria defining exactly what PK, HnS or RP muds are, other than what the acronyms themselves suggest. PK for instance is implemented quite differently on WODMush than it is on GodWars.
Yet as I already pointed out, going by the acroynm itself practically every mud would be classified as an RP mud, while no mud would be classified as a PK mud (at least, I've never heard of any mud which killed the players, unless you count the occasional suicide). The meanings might not be as specific as RPI, but we still give acroynms such as RP/PK/etc certain meanings which go beyond the literal wording.

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Originally Posted by
There's a big difference between someone calling their server a new made up name to describe the activity in that game (i.e. MUCK - multi-user chat kingdom) and telling others who happen to use that same acronym to describe something else (for example me using MUCK as multi-user creative killing ... hmm that's a nice one) that they ain't a MUCK and shouldn't use it.
But don't you think it would be worth telling that person that MUCK already has a meaning, that it already refers to a specific style of mud, and that if they call their "Multi-User Creative Killfest mud" a "MUCK" then many potential players are going to confuse it for a completely different type of game? Furthermore, if that mud listed itself as being a "MUCK", do you think it would be unreasonable for an auditor of the weblisting to flag the entry as inaccurate?

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Originally Posted by
What other term in common use in the mud community has only a specific meaning and not a generalized meaning? No not even Mushes, Mucks, and MOOs have specific criteria in that regard besides simply acknowledging actually formal derivative history or inspiration.
Those are specific codebases. My scratch-written PK mud is object-oriented - what sort of response do you think if I advertised in on a forum for MOOs?

Of course I'm perfectly entitled to call my mud a MOO (or indeed anything else) if I like, but that's not really the point. MOO already has a specific set of features, many of which have nothing to do with OO, and based on those criteria my mud doesn't qualify. Calling my mud a MOO would therefore just lead to confusion.
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Old 04-15-2004, 06:12 PM   #47
 
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,13:39)
 Furthermore, if that mud listed itself as being a "MUCK", do you think it would be unreasonable for an auditor of the weblisting to flag the entry as inaccurate?
Excuse me but what exactly are you auditing?  

If someone is auditing games for the term RPI, then they are doing players a disservice.  They are no longer auditing, they are involved in subjective game review.  

It's especially annoying because apparently only a handful a people are privy to the EXACT definition that's being audited against then.  And apparently that definition isn't even consistent based on the various RPI muds web pages I've visited.

Now I've asked twice now and so have a few other posters.
Where can I find the definition of RPI?  

Do you know when it first appeared on Usenet?
It looks like 1998 to me.  Looks like someone defined it as having multiple currencies and horses and carriages. :-P
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Old 04-15-2004, 07:39 PM   #48
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Excuse me but what exactly are you auditing?

If someone is auditing games for the term RPI, then they are doing players a disservice. They are no longer auditing, they are involved in subjective game review.
KaVir's point is valid here - if I, as a game owner, were to bill my game as "PK Intensive", and it were not, it would be a misrepresentation of the game, and could be detrimental to an auditors impression (I believe TMC still does audits, although I no longer frequent that site). Ditto the term "RPI" - although I have never asked for quantification of the term, when this situation arose several years ago regarding my game, I quickly determined I didn't (by choice) meet the arbitrary criteria the term RPI represented. Rather than debate the issue, I simply billled the game as IRP - intensive roleplay.

Having been intimately involved in that discussion (early '01 if I recall correctly), and after doing some cursory research into the term back then, I chose not to debate the issue, because the term RPI had become the de facto standard for a specific set of criterion. Now, several years further down the road, it should be even more firmly ensconced, regardless of how well it has been published.

Perhaps, rather than debating the timeline and history of the applique', this thread would be better realized by codifying the specifications, to allow citing in the future. It need not be KaVir's definition; we can appeal to those who run games quantified as RPIs for their interpretation.
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:59 PM   #49
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As someone that gave up playing hack-and slash and only plays RPI, I've come to expect certain things from that term.  I've searched for similar MUDs, games that were designed for role-playing, not killing.  In addition to an environment of strict in-character role-play, these MUDs may have a base like the average MUD, but its been modified to remove all traces of elements that don't pertain to a realistic, non-game-like experience (experience, levels, global channels, and everything else that has no meaning or place in role-playing, unless you're role-playing a video game character).  A lot of MUDs call themselves RPI, but to be honest, they don't meet the standards of RPI.  Their code looks like any other non-RPI MUD.  It's like the owner of a Ford Focus claiming he drives an exotic sports car.

By this definition, I've come across less than a dozen RPI MUDs, only a few of which can be found on TMS.  Most of these MUDs are no longer active either (last time I looked, there were only three active and two still in development).

The overuse of the term RPI is distressing, or at least annoying for those of us that seek such games only to be disappointed time and time again by games that don't meet the expectations that term suggests.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:44 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Tyche @ April 16 2004,00:12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 15 2004,13:39)
 Furthermore, if that mud listed itself as being a "MUCK", do you think it would be unreasonable for an auditor of the weblisting to flag the entry as inaccurate?
Excuse me but what exactly are you auditing?  
The accuracy of the listing. On TMC I've done this numerous times for the "codebase" field - Diku's listing themselves as "custom", GodWars listing themselves as "Merc", etc. Players looking for MUCKs will most likely do searches based on the codebase criteria, and "MUCK" is already a standard codebase. If everyone were allowed to write what they wished, then it would render the by-codebase search useless.

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If someone is auditing games for the term RPI, then they are doing players a disservice. They are no longer auditing, they are involved in subjective game review.
RPI is not quite as clear-cut as MUCK, because the latter is a specific codebase while the former is a style of mud (although in many ways it is almost like a codebase). In addition there is no listing entry for "RPI", but if there were I would treat it the same as any of the other fields.

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Originally Posted by
It's especially annoying because apparently only a handful a people are privy to the EXACT definition that's being audited against then. And apparently that definition isn't even consistent based on the various RPI muds web pages I've visited.
The same could be said for many of the other fields. If you think "RPI" is subjective, you should try quantifying something like "Detailed Character Creation" or "Extended Race Selection" (a certain infamous mud actually tried to claim the latter on the basis that, although it didn't actually have any races implemented, players could pretend to be whatever they liked). Most of the definitions are open to mis/interpretation, but at the end of the day, if the listing is to be of any use to its target audience (ie potential players), there needs to be some amount of consistancy. And IMO the best way to do that is by precedent and common sense. It's not perfect, but if you want to be completely non-subjective you're really not going to be able to provide much information.

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Now I've asked twice now and so have a few other posters. Where can I find the definition of RPI?
There are enough bits and pieces around to work it out, but I've not yet found a full definition (RPIs aren't really my thing - they're just something I've stumbled over a few times over the years - so maybe someone else can point out a link).

What I believe happened is that many years ago someone created a specific style of RP mud, and over the years other people have copied that style of mud, and thus the term RPI has sprung up among the players of those muds to represent their genre. Sort of like an "adopted codebase" I suppose (derivatives without the physical source code itself).

Regardless, the term "RPI" has a well established meaning among those who play such muds. If you list some random mud as an RPI, then players who like RPIs will connect, quickly discover you're not what they were expecting, and leave. Meanwhile those who dislike RPIs will simply ignore your mud, expecting it to be something other than what it really is. It's a misrepresentation that nobody benefits from (unless you're specifically trying to dilute the term RPI, which would be one possible long-term goal).

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Do you know when it first appeared on Usenet?
It looks like 1998 to me. Looks like someone defined it as having multiple currencies and horses and carriages. :-P
I've already provided a link to July 1997, that's the earliest reference I've been able to find on usenet (although I've not had time to search thoroughly).
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Old 04-16-2004, 05:47 AM   #51
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I've only seen the term "RPI" used with an implied reserved meaning by people associated with Armageddon or MUDs derived from the Armageddon codebase. As far as I can tell, this term can be relatively safely interpreted as: Armageddon, MUDs derived therefrom (e.g., harshlands, southlands) or MUDs which are nearly feature-identical to Armageddon. In fact, I've told this outright by several people, and it's probably the most clearcut definition I've ever been given.

I remember the term being used simply as an abbreviation for "roleplaying intensive" in IRC RP game channels as far back as '95, but I noticed it attaining a special reserved meaning with respect to MUDs around '99.

Whether or not this special reserved meaning has become part of the vernacular is not entirely clear to me, so I avoid using the term as much as possible to avoid potential confusion.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:14 AM   #52
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Actually, there are zillions of muds sharing the same code base as Armageddon, as its code base is simply Diku, albeit heavily modified.

Harshlands/FEM/SoI/4Lands aren't derivative of Armageddon, at least not in the traditional sense. They may have features that were inspired by Armageddon, but there was never a release of Armageddon's code that people then began to modify and use to create their own muds (except one time when someone stole the code and put up their own Armageddon clone).

Harshlands, FEM, and SoI, on the other hand all do use similar code and there has been much sharing of the code between the administration of those games.

As trivia: Arm's initial unique code feature was a scripting language created by its founder called DMPL (Dan's Mud Programming Language). However, the staff has since begun to phase out DMPL and replace it with javascript.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 15 2004,04:05)
7-->
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Mar. 15 2004,03[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]7)]An RPI has various criteria, include no OOC channels or who list, enforced roleplaying, short descriptions instead of character names, no levels, etc.
Ive never heard of that before. Well I meant the second criteria then. A mu* (MUSH, Mud, MOO, whatever) that is roleplaying intensive.
I have this really freaky idea. I think y'all are gonna just absolutely love it.

How about - everyone stop nitpicking over the term RPI, since it has -nothing- to do with this topic (as shown in the quote of my post)?

The question is clear: What do readers of this thread consider a "must" for text-based interactive multi-player online games that require, enforce, and support (via the code and staff interaction/intervention) roleplaying?

If you wanna talk about the definition of the acronym RPI - which stands for Roleplay(ing) Intensive, have at it. In another thread.
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Old 04-16-2004, 08:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ April 16 2004,13:37)
How about - everyone stop nitpicking over the term RPI, since it has -nothing- to do with this topic (as shown in the quote of my post)?
A topic entitled "What is necessary to have an RPI?" has nothing to do with the term "RPI"?

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The question is clear: What do readers of this thread consider a "must" for text-based interactive multi-player online games that require, enforce, and support (via the code and staff interaction/intervention) roleplaying?
The question could have been interpretted in two ways, so I answered it from both perspectives, and asked which the poster intended - something which he later clarified. Cutting out my answer to the question he intended and quoting the answer to the one he didn't, then claiming that I am drifting off-topic, is really quite low.
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Old 04-16-2004, 12:28 PM   #55
 
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 16 2004,03:44)
The same could be said for many of the other fields.  If you think "RPI" is subjective
I think it's been established that it is fairly recent term and it is ineffably subjective.  But there is more to support that below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 16 2004,03:44)
There are enough bits and pieces around to work it out, but I've not yet found a full definition (RPIs aren't really my thing - they're just something I've stumbled over a few times over the years - so maybe someone else can point out a link).
I've found a few bits and pieces.

The first mention of RPI on the mud-dev mail list was in late 1999 by Locke announce the release of an RPI codebase Nimud 2000.   It features a who list, a global channel called OOC, a score command, no permadeath.   Doesn't look like there was any contention over Locke's use of the term.  Were not the imlementors of these RPI muds on the list?  Methinks they were indeed.

In 1998 someone releases an RPI game SwordQuest which had no permadeath.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 16 2004,03:44)
Regardless, the term "RPI" has a well established meaning among those who play such muds.  
And I find it odd that one of Armeggedon forum's prolific posters (and I would assume players) isn't aware of that RPI has very specific criteria, and was suprised by what you told him.  Again specific criteria which have never been published.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 16 2004,03:44)
If you list some random mud as an RPI, then players who like RPIs will connect, quickly discover you're not what they were expecting, and leave.
Yeah it's probably why neither Harshlands nor Armeggedon advertise their muds as RPIs.  Because not even players and implementors of those two muds apparently care what it means.   And it's also without a doubt certainly true that many of those players would find Threshold or DartMud right up their alley as well.  Don't get me wrong.  There's nothing wrong with any of them.  In fact they do share the same general role-playing style.  Imagine that.  There is a general subset of role-players that those games would appeal do.  And they don't wear an ISO service mark (i.e. RPI) on their forehead.

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I've already provided a link to July 1997, that's the earliest reference I've been able to find on usenet (although I've not had time to search thoroughly).
I would note it appears to be an attempt by one or two implementors, looks like they are associated with a defunct mud named Aldarra, repeatedly proffering their OPINION on what constitutes a good roleplay mud.  "That's not RPI"  "Yes it is"  "No it isn't".  

I'll tell you what it looks like to me.  A bunch of left-brained Type B Diku hobbits who finally discovered role-playing after 6 years online trying to dictate the use of an acronym they can't even agree on amongst themselves.   Yeah that's what it looks like, because that is exactly what it is.  

You are right, the acronym is not at all like MOO, Mush, Mud, Muck, etc.   It's definately like RP, PK, HnS...   Looks like it is indeed a subset of RP.  And apparently just as clear as pornography, we knows it when we sees it.  

One wonders why anyone would even bother correcting a poster who would *kof* "misuse" it.   I would venture it's especially annoying if you are a roleplayer to be corrected on a term by those who don't really give a flying crap about role-playing anyways.  

That may just be exactly why I posted.  Let the hobbit John tell you what RPI means to him.   I suspect from reading his posts he's actually got a bit of elven blood in him.  

It's a #### GOOD THING RPI does not have specific definition as it would completely squelch any and all discussion on it.
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Old 04-16-2004, 04:08 PM   #56
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Heck I thought Gemstone was "RPI" when I first started playing. Mostly because I had nothing to compare it to. The roleplaying was intense (for someone who had never roleplayed before) and by virtue of the words themselves:

Role Play Intensive = RPI.

Then I grew out of it after wondering "if this is so roleplay intensive, how come I have to step my character over scripting zombies on the way to find the RP?" and went to Inferno, which advertised its game as serious RP. I then realized that GS wasn't RPI - but that Inferno was, compared to GS and my -very- limited experience bugging out on H&S muds for a few weeks.

Then I started seeing too many things with Inferno I didn't like and was introduced to Armageddon. THAT - has been the pinnacle of my RP experience. The fact that it has no ooc channels isn't what makes it RPI to me, at all. OOC channels can always be turned off or triggered to show up in a seperate window so you don't have to look at them.

Its being permanent death isn't what constitutes RPI, to me. It helps, but I don't see it as a "must-have" criteria for an intensive RP environment. What makes it an RPI to me is the roleplaying itself. Put in all the insipid colors, the newbie mudschools, the ressurrection and repops, a hack and slash stock-ROM or whatever - and it's the roleplaying that makes it different. The community of people who will RP no matter which environment you stick them with.

Call it RPI if that's what makes you hard and hot. I don't give a cahoot. Tell me that other games aren't RPIs if the sweat it causes on your brow gives you a tingle. WHATEVER.

As far as *I* am concerned, an RPI is any game where you can totally lose yourself in the fantasy because the community of players support the fantasy with their own roleplay.

You can tell me I'm wrong and that it isn't RPI til you're blue in the face. I don't care. Not even remotely. I will continue calling it an RPI and there ain't nuttin you can do to stop me. So there. Nya.

Love and kisses, The Hobbit
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ April 16 2004,16)
You can tell me I'm wrong and that it isn't RPI til you're blue in the face. I don't care. Not even remotely. I will continue calling it an RPI and there ain't nuttin you can do to stop me. So there. Nya.
Why are you "nya"ing?

Nobody told you to stop calling Armageddon an RPI.

Your indignation comes as quite a surprise.
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:56 AM   #58
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I'll try this for the addle-brained (whoever that might be - if it applies to you, own it. Otherwise, ignore it)

R.P.I. is an acronym. It is not a phrase, term, or word. It stands for Role Play Intensive, or Role Playing Intensive. Each word, when used independent of the other, carries its own definition. Combined, and used in the context of gaming, they refer to "A game that has intensive roleplay."

If you want to add other stuff to that, have at it. You are not required to. And neither am I. As far as I'm concerned, Inferno is a RPI. It is -vastly- different from Armageddon, in almost every possible way I can think of. From genre to code to limitations to plotlines to the emoting system to the combat system - vastly different. Inferno has ressurrection built into the roleplay. Characters do not die permanently. Inferno has an entire OOC AREA - no need for ooc global channels, just pop out of the game any time and hang out with your OOC buddies to your heart's content.

Both, to me, are RPI, because it's the ROLEPLAY that makes it so. Armageddon would -still- be a RPI if they didn't have permadeath, or if they had global OOC channels.

R.P.I. Role Play Intensive. Not "Roleplay Intensive, plus you have to have permadeath." Not "Roleplay Intensive, plus no global channels."

One more time - if someone wants to arbitrarily add other criteria to the term and announce that anyone who uses it incorrectly is wrong - then go out and buy yourself a freakin copyright on the term and license it. Till then, shaddup and let people define it however they see fit.
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Old 04-17-2004, 11:54 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 17 2004,01[img
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela,April 16 2004,16
You can tell me I'm wrong and that it isn't RPI til you're blue in the face. I don't care. Not even remotely. I will continue calling it an RPI and there ain't nuttin you can do to stop me. So there. Nya.
Why are you "nya"ing?

Nobody told you to stop calling Armageddon an RPI.

Your indignation comes as quite a surprise.
I think she's agreeing with you, and she doesn't like people trying to claim that RPI should be limited to only a certain set of game features.

It's hard to get at the meaning amongst all the self-righteous indignation, though.
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:43 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ April 17 2004,08:56)
R.P.I. is an acronym. It is not a phrase, term, or word. It stands for Role Play Intensive, or Role Playing Intensive. Each word, when used independent of the other, carries its own definition. Combined, and used in the context of gaming, they refer to "A game that has intensive roleplay."
I find playing the role of the marine in Doom to be pretty intense. Therefore Doom is an RPI, and you would have no qualms about labeling it as such. If you would, then we need some sort of criteria other than the base definition of the acronym. Whether it's an elite cabal of crack linguists that define this criteria, or we merely recognize what people tend to think of when the term is used, I think quite a few would agree that going completely by the base definition would be a misrepresentation of Doom's gameplay.
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