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Old 04-20-2004, 04:16 AM   #81
Valg
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I've seen the "XP for mobkilling means no RP!" argument before, and I don't buy it either.  

For example, we (like many MUDs) have a system where you can grow as a character through combat.  XP is one incentive, but skill improvements, etc. all figure in.  You can earn XP in a number of other ways, but combat is the most common.

What does that tell you about our roleplaying quality?  Nothing, really.  

Gaining experience this way isn't "OOC".  If your holy paladin-type rampages through town killing innocent children, we don't say "Oh.  It's for XP.  That's OOC, so it's OK."  Instead, you are probably an ex-paladin, unable to tap into divinely granted supplications, and facing retribution from the mortals and immortals you've betrayed.  It's all IC, like anything else.

You could also have an XP-based combat system on a MUD where no one roleplayed at all, and everyone talked about the NBA playoffs or what their cat is doing.  That's not our game, but there are many like that, and some people like them too.

Apples and oranges.
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Old 04-23-2004, 06:52 AM   #82
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Well, I guess you could call all those crackpot H&S muds rp...if everyone in those game worlds are psychotic mass murderers...then I guess they are all roleplaying very well.

But as for the term RPI,  the term itself suggests to me a higher, more realistic level of roleplay. Meaning your not going around IC and killing things for no apparent reason at all. (In real life this would be called murder or some form of psychosis...extremely unrealistic if everyone in an entire world is doing it...there would be noone left alive.) There is no IC concept of experience points or levels...leveling up, only life and death and what you would need to do as one -living- in that world.

Role- A character or part played by a performer.

So, like I said...you could call those in the H&S style games roleplayers..I guess, if everyone in that particular world is a complete psychotic mass-murderer.

But roleplay intensive IMHO, is a higher level of rp...a more realistic level of rp...the difference between a b-rated movie actor and Robert Deniro...can you make the role believable? (More realistic, within the setting provided)

For me, RPI -would- include  almost no OOC channels...permanent death...no experience levels and players that roleplay in a realistic, believeable fashion.

A group, of actors playing their parts...using all their abilities, to bring the world and the stories to life and the game environment support the realism of it and offering realistic consquence to the actions of the characters in that world.

That is truly intensive roleplaying.

In fact...I say...since other lesser muds see fit to include themselves as RPI's...forget the term.

From now on...true intent on roleplaying realistically type of games should be called RRE's.

Realistic Roleplaying Environment

And for starters...some of the requirments would be:

Permanent death

Extremely limited (if any) OOC channels

No name tags

No experience levels

Rules about RP of types of roles...keeping some continuity in the game world.

The expectation of realistic consequences for your PC's actions, provided both by the code and the immortals of the game.


There's a few.

And here's a few I would say fit that or work to fit it well.

Armageddon -My personal favorite.

Shadows of Isildur-Fits my opinion of what one should be...just not my preferred world to play in.

Anything less...doesn't not qualify as a RRE.

There is no arguement to this...it's my term...I deem it so.
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Old 04-23-2004, 05:26 PM   #83
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I think someone at TMS or TMC should make a dictionary of MUD terms so these arguments never happen again. That we can just flame the dictionary instead of each other.
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:19 AM   #84
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Dunestalker, thanks for pointing out precisely the type of elitism so many people here are bristling about.

As suspected, RPI is about elitism and a "higher level of role playing."

But of course, the truth behind your requirements is that they are just your preferences. The requirements you listed would absolutely NOT make for superior or "higher level" role playing.

Your first error was being against OOC channels. To use your own analogies, do you think Robert DeNiro never speaks "ooc" with the director or his fellow actors? Do you think actors never hang out between shoots to get to know each other better? Don't tell that to Dennis Quaid, Meg Ryan, and Russell Crowe. That's how Dennis lost his wife.

Your second error was saying permadeath is required for "higher level" RP. Sorry, but once again that is pure personal preference. You cannot argue that permadeath is a REQUIREMENT for "higher level" RP.

There is nothing more "unrealistic" about resurrection than any other form of magic or fantasy that might exist in a game. People in real life believe in resurrection for crying out loud. The entire Christian faith is based on a resurrection. I don't have any problems with games that are permadeath and I definitely think such systems can add excitement and thrill to one's character. But to argue that it objectively makes for better or more realistic RP is just absurd.

The core problem is the same: don't confuse your personal preferences with things that objectively make for "higher level" RP. When you start doing that, you accomplish nothing more than clearly labelling yourself as an elitist.
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Old 04-24-2004, 04:26 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 24 2004,08:19)
Dunestalker, thanks for pointing out precisely the type of elitism so many people here are bristling about.

As suspected, RPI is about elitism and a "higher level of role playing."
A single ignorant elitist does not change the original point - the fact that, to many people, "RPI" already has an established meaning. None of the points Dunestalker listed will inherently improve roleplaying, while IMO some of them actively detract from gameplay (eg hiding names, which is an inferior alternative to character recognition). But none of that changes the fact that using the term "RPI" to refer to your mud will give many potential players certain expectations.
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Old 04-24-2004, 05:29 AM   #86
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People in real life believe in resurrection for crying out loud. The entire Christian faith is based on a resurrection. I don't have any problems with games that are permadeath and I definitely think such systems can add excitement and thrill to one's character. But to argue that it objectively makes for better or more realistic RP is just absurd.

Yup. It's not an OOC mechanism at all. The way we handle it is that each time you die, you return as a ghost at your temple, but you become (permanently) a little weaker. As time passes, you begin noticing that your body is regaining its old material form. If you die a whole heck of a lot, you become a ghost that gradually fades away, which causes the (wait for it.....) permadeath!

OOC, you want a mechanism that makes death unattractive (so characters try to stay alive, which adds to excitement), but it needn't confirm to RL "rules" of life and death. There are pluses and minuses to a single-death-equals-permadeath system, and it's a valid alternative that several games use well.

The important thing to remember is that it's a fantasy environment, and you're not really looking for "realism" as much as "internal consistency". When someone kills off an NPC (like Blarg the goblin soldier or whatever), and they log on several days later and Blarg is around the village... well, Blarg has a patron deity too! That's just how this fantasy world works. The residents wouldn't even think it's weird, for the same reason they don't find (most) wizards (*) or kobolds weird.

The second thing to remember is that just because your game does things one way, and other games do it another way.... does not necessarily mean the other games are inferior, poorly done, or "wrong". Just different.

(*) Kteng's wraith was unavailable for comment beyond asking that she remain walled up in her sprawling alchemical laboratory. After all, she has an experiment that needs a little tweaking.
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Old 04-24-2004, 08:43 AM   #87
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So... is the argument on specific criteria now, or is it on wether or not there are criteria?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Your first error was being against OOC channels.
Isn't that exactly what you got mad at KaVir for to begin with Aristotle? Making broad statements like that? I do agree though. =p

I don't really see how at least some OOC communications would hurt any MUD in any way... and if it doesn't hurt the MUD, shouldn't players (not characters) be allowed the freedom to speak with each other?

A problem I see with imposing specfic conditions (ie permdeath) is that that limits RPIs to certain themes, or at least excludes some themes (such as some religious themes as Aristotle aptly pointed out.)

Still, there must be some fundamental criteria that we can all agree upon such as roleplay enforced at all times, advancement through RP, and some kind of (harsher than your typical HS) penalty for death?

And does anyone disagree that there is a definite distinction to be made to the stock rp enforced MUD with characters saying "Yay! I lvled!" and the more... distinguished MUDs such as Threshold, Armageddon, Harshlands, SoI... etc?
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:10 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (John @ Mar. 15 2004,01:33)
I was wondering what everyone thought was necessary to have a Roleplaying Intensive MU*

I can only think of 2 criteria. Having a consistent world, having players that roleplay.

From what I've seen, everything else seems to be optional.

So what does everyone else think is required?
I will re-direct you all to the original post, and cite the phrases that everyone seems to be ignoring (blatantly, I might add) .

...what everyone THOUGHT was necessary...

meaning - what is your -opinion- - not meaning - what is the agreed-upon/popular/Mudder's Official definition of.

The post asks about Roleplaying Intensive MU* - now maybe John felt that spelling the whole thing out in the subject line would make it too wordy for the thread when it popped up on the list, and simply shortened it to RPI for brevity's sake. The content of the post has no mention of "RPI" so maybe y'all should just forget that acronym and stick to answering the question instead of dissecting a single phrase in the subject line, hm?

All y'all are a bunch of nitpicking twits who'd rather argue a point that doesn't exist than to actually give someone's post a bit of thought and answer it to the best of your abilities.
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Old 04-24-2004, 10:00 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by
All y'all are a bunch of nitpicking twits who'd rather argue a point that doesn't exist than to actually give someone's post a bit of thought and answer it to the best of your abilities.
Yup, pretty much . It has actually been answered a few times though Jazuela. I can summarize the answer if you want.
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Old 04-24-2004, 02:56 PM   #90
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Harlan Ellison once said, "99% of science fiction is crud.  Then again, 99% of everything is crud."  He couldn't have been more correct.

Are "RP-enforced/accepted" MUDs designed with channels, no permanent death, levels, experience, etc. because they are part of the game's concept or because they're part of the base code or what the game's creator saw somewhere else?  I'd wager to guess that in 99% of the cases, it's #2 or #3.  That's symtomatic of any hack that can code creating a MUD.  Creativity and reason are two things most people lack and no where is that more obvious than in the field of computer and console games.  Originality, creativity, and thoughtful functionality are what's missing from nearly everything produced by the commercial and non-commercial sectors, MUDs included.  H&S MUDs usually have the courage to say that they're a game, designed around a kill-everything-in-sight theme.  My hat's off to those H&S MUDs, Necromium comes to mind, that admit they're H&S and don't try to claim "great RP in a realistic and beautifully-written environment".  These games in no way inferior to RP MUDs, they're aiming for different goals and a different playerbase.  But a lot of so-called "RP" MUDs are crap.  RP in an environment created for H&S, with elements of such games incorporated into them as an excuse for the game creators' inability or lack of thoughtful game design, is fine and possible.  But then again, so is belching out the notes of a song.  But why not use an instrument specifically designed to play music?  The same's true of MUDs.

Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "Noone can make you feel inferior without your permission."  The frequent cry of "elitism" to describe RPI indicates what I suspected all along.  The vast multitude of hacks running pathetic "RP" MUDs out there know deep down that they are hacks and that their MUDs are lacking.

Judging from a lot of the posts in this discussion, I'm going to guess that very few will agree with me.  That's understandable.  After all, as Mr. Ellison's comment points out, crud holds a clear majority.

Think about it for a minute,

Jason
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Old 04-24-2004, 08:55 PM   #91
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Man...for calling someone ignorant...some of you are proving yourselves to be by NOT READING exactly what I said.

I did state that it was MY OPINION.

I said few very few, if any OOC channels. I did not say one could not be if they had ANY.

Yes, actors do have some OOC interaction...though usually NOT in the middle of the scene.

Threshold, if you are going to call someone ignorant, at least READ what they are saying before you respond.

As I had stated it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, call it elitist, fine I don't care it's your opinion and you are entitled to it and it means somewhere between jack and **** to me.
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Old 04-25-2004, 01:41 AM   #92
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 24 2004,03:26)
the fact that, to many people, "RPI" already has an established meaning.
Unfortunately you haven't established that at all.   I count maybe 3 or 4 people that think there's a specific list of criteria.   A list which would invalidate Armageddon, BTW.   It would seem that the list of specific criteria are nonsense as Armeggedon is certainly an RPI mud.   I don't see any disagreement with that here.  

I also cannot find history of the term in regards to the criteria you posted.  No not even in the conversations you posted from '97, which are laced with "IMHO".   Robbert implied that maybe exploring the history of the term wasn't a good idea.   I can understand why.   There isn't any.   Well actually there is a history of people apparently using the term quite loosely from 98 onwards.   (i.e. Nimud, SwordQuest).  

The term is obviously not pure, and never has been pure.  It's kind of late in the game to start enforcing some sort of specific criteria and/or ownership of some acronym.  If you've gotta say, well "RPI is Harshlands" then you might as well not even bother clarifying it as nobody is ever going to be remotely confused by the term RPI.

I've noted a few muds on TMC put RPI in the codebase portion of their listing.  What's up with that?
Will some committee be approaching MystariaMush to explain that they can't call their game an RPI?

Where is the list of criteria?
Who developed the list?
Who maintains it?
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Old 04-25-2004, 06:20 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Tyche @ April 25 2004,06:41)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 24 2004,03:26)
the fact that, to many people, "RPI" already has an established meaning.
Unfortunately you haven't established that at all.
I've provided links to its usage going back 7 years, and the reference in question suggests it predates that by some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I count maybe 3 or 4 people that think there's a specific list of criteria. A list which would invalidate Armageddon, BTW.
In what way does it invalidate Armageddon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I also cannot find history of the term in regards to the criteria you posted. No not even in the conversations you posted from '97, which are laced with "IMHO".
The post I linked to contains no instances of "IMHO". The entire conversation of 17 posts contains a single instance of "IMHO", which was specifically made in reference to whether or not levels in roleplaying games should be hidden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robbert implied that maybe exploring the history of the term wasn't a good idea. I can understand why. There isn't any.
Then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, as to me, people using the term over a period of 7+ years indicates "history" to me, at least in mud terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The term is obviously not pure, and never has been pure.
Neither are any mud terms. What is an "RP mud"? As has been demonstrated already, going by its literal meaning Doom is an RP mud. But do most people consider Doom to be an RP mud?

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Originally Posted by
Where is the list of criteria?
Who developed the list?
Who maintains it?
Where are the lists of criteria for "RP", "PK", "GoP" and "HnS"?
Who developed those lists?
Who maintains them?

If I talk about a PK mud, people familiar with that term immediately have an idea of what sort of mud that is. The same if I talk to someone familiar with RP muds - and the RPI is no different.

You dislike the term, and you're obviously not familiar with it - but other people are, and ignoring them isn't going to change the fact that if someone lists a mud as an RPI, many potential players will have immediate expectations about what sort of features that mud will offer.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:18 AM   #94
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Arrow

Lol Dune, I thought he was refering to me... which I guess shows how far my self-confidence has sank due to Engineering.
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