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Old 06-04-2013, 01:43 AM   #61
Juason
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

You've expressed your opinion quite well. No triple-negatives or walls of text ((just kidding, just kidding!))

This kind of ties into the newbie point Jaz brought up. MUD players come in a variety of skill levels and experienced MUDders take less effort to support than inexperienced MUDders.

My perception (created from my own time playing and from my peers and other players) is DR's staff does an exceptional job of providing in game support for inexperienced MUDders, and does a great job at supporting the population given its size.

It is easy to say that customer support isn't as important as being free or having good mechanics, dedicated staff or more creativity. But I really think that is a primary contributor for why so many have stayed around or keep coming back. After 4 years ofbeing away you log in, check out the forums, hop on the wiki and re-acquaint yourself. Then as you go run off to play: players, mentors, hosts, GMs and more are there to ensure you have a good time.

My wife was an extremely dedicated supporters of a free MUD years ago. After seeing some of the hell she went through - and yes, I realize this was just a single data point - Support probably just runs the gamut like anything else.

If nothing else, this discussion has revealed the #1 challenge facing DR is the cost. We may focus on combat, magic, crafting and events like they are all that matters. But cost matters too! And it isn't how much money, just that any money is required. By that I mean 15$ today is worth about 50% less than it was in the year 2000. But, it is seen as much more due to the industry's direction.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:29 AM   #62
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

I will admit, I initially supported what was my favorite mud when they started down the road of pay to win. I regret doing that. It changed the mud entirely. What was once an extremely social, gratifying experience, slowly declined after they implemented donation rewards. So my opinion does have a degree of bias.

However, if DR was really so good, the player base would support it strictly upon that. But the whole point here is money. You can't get around this point. You are here because you want or need to generate more revenue. No one says "well my product is good, but I don't really want more money for it". Admit that you are here because of the $$$. After all these years if the mud really wanted to go free to play, it would've.

I am curious, why not get a few of your players in here to state exactly why it is they pay? It would probably be more convincing.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:21 PM   #63
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

As a somewhat regular poster here on TMS and a currently subbed player, who can log into the forums I can confirm that the players are asking for the game to be advertised more and obviously they are voting.

I really can't comment on too much anything else. But, I do enjoy the different mechanics of the game, the game play of the Trader's and Moon Mage guild are my favorites. I have yet to dabble in crafting since the type of crafting that I want (alchemy and cooking) are not implemented yet. You cannot "forgot" a crafting skill once learned and since I only have one character, I'm going to wait on that.

Also, I wanted to add. Why is it that DR is a pay to play game all that big of a deal. We have Skotos' game, Threshold and IRE games (even though the last two are free to play, to get a lot of the good stuff you need real life money. That's just my opinion.) I play and support all the games and cycle through all the ones that I listed including DR.

Last edited by Realedazed : 06-04-2013 at 01:33 PM. Reason: baby on the keyboard
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:21 PM   #64
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

>>You cannot "forgot" a crafting skill

Not sure if you knew this, but anyone can advance in all 5 crafting skills and earn techniques from it. It is true you cannot re-choose a Hobby or Career currently, but that would not prevent you from excelling at portions of the system... (Hobbies and Careers give bonus techniques and a small skill bonus)

Alchemy (at least the remedy making portion) will be out this month. Been pushing hard to get it done. Then I can focus on poisons, diseases and other alchemy fun
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:30 PM   #65
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

Just want to point it out,

*I* started this thread. I play the game and I love it. I'm glad Juason is posting. He's an active developer for the game, but the posts asking why we're advertising are just over the top.

Firstly, I find it humorous that the screen name providing most of the vitriol in this thread is actually the name of a competing mud. Pot. Kettle. Black. I'll remember the 'loving attention' you showed -my- thread when I find a DA advertisement.

Secondly, I advertised because I want new people to play the game. New names and faces, new ideas, new interactions.. Its sort of why you play Multi User Dungeon games in the first place.. you know.. multi?

Seriously, I don't mind negative comments. All games have their positive and their negative aspects and people deserve to be informed. What I do mind are blatant attempts to throw a competitor under the dirt using the guise of another 'user'. Which is what your posting and continued belligerence in this thread have been.

For anyone new who might be reading this thread, I encourage you to check out Dragonrealms yourself. You will find a world of hundreds of people who play because the game is that awesome. When you log in, ask around for Elriic. I'll be happy to show you around and help you get started.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:54 PM   #66
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

I've played about 20-30 different MUDS in the past 15+ years and I have to say without a doubt Dragonrealms is my absolute favorite.

Its hard to quantify exactly what makes Dragonrealms so special, but I will say the community, the lore, and support are high on the list.

If your a serious MUDer the subscription cost shouldn't be a hindrance, they do offer a free month trial where you can get your feet wet. I'm at a stage in my life where I will happily invest a few bucks a month for what I feel is a clearly premium and superior product. There are a LOT of good MUDS out there right now, but for my money you have to give this one a try.

I'll take it a step further and say that the GENIE CLIENT is also a must, it really opens ups dragonrealms in awesome ways, and yes, you have to purchase that from someone too (not the company that owns dragonrealms).

I read through this thread and look, if you want to play for free, obviously this isn't the MUD for you, but if money isn't really an issue, and your looking for an awesome MUD with excellent RP and really deep lore, you can't find a better game out there. You get what you pay for.

Another thing that always brings me back to Dragonrealms is the unique engagement system. Personally just typing attack attack attack is boring. I like that you have to advance a critter to fight it at melee, or you can shoot it from range.

There are so many reasons that Dragonrealms is amazing, its truly the gold standard. I look at other MUDS as excellent appetizers, but Dragonrealms will always be the fine wine and gourmet meal.

Right now Dragonrealms has the best set of developers in probably its entire lengthy existence, things are changing and being coded that quite frankly you won't find elsewhere. The game is very balanced and constantly tweaked.

Its great.

Last edited by buuwl : 06-04-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:51 PM   #67
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

Quote:
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>>You cannot "forgot" a crafting skill

Not sure if you knew this, but anyone can advance in all 5 crafting skills and earn techniques from it. It is true you cannot re-choose a Hobby or Career currently, but that would not prevent you from excelling at portions of the system... (Hobbies and Careers give bonus techniques and a small skill bonus)

Alchemy (at least the remedy making portion) will be out this month. Been pushing hard to get it done. Then I can focus on poisons, diseases and other alchemy fun
You can? I guess I read the wiki wrong. That's actually pretty cool. I can never decide on a trade. It took me ages to decide what guild to join. Anyway, thanks for the response.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:13 AM   #68
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

The majority of posters on Top Mud Sites are either developers for, or established players of, existing muds - and most people already consider their current mud to be the "best". Convincing them otherwise is always going to be a hard sell.

What you might find more effective is to go into detail about some of your better features, perhaps even start some discussions about them. For example buuwl mentioned combat - and combat systems are a subject that has been discussed quite a few times over the years, such as here, here, here and here.

Discussions about game mechanics can be both useful and interesting, and also help draw attention to existing implementations.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:41 AM   #69
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

The combat systems are really nice in DR, and actually have recently been overhauled and rebalanced.

Currently I'd say PvP in Dragonrealms is as balanced as its ever been. I really think having different areas of engagement, melee, ranged, pole and stealth, give a unique dimension to combat not seen in many other MUDs. If you are going to pick a combat heavy guild such as Barbarian, Cleric, War Mage, or Pallie, you are going to find ways to make your skills work and not find yourself up against a guild with a "win" button.

In regards to crafting;

There are some really unique guilds in dragonrealms such as traders, which allow you to run your own shop and sell gear to other players. Traders are also "Lore Prime". Dragonrealms has various skillsets that each guild gets a bonus in. Traders get their bonus in the skillset that has all the crafting skills, so if you LOVE to craft stuff, you can make stuff and sell it to other players in your shop. Another guild thats really nice for crafting is the empath guild. They are also lore prime and have the added benefit of a unique healing system that is unlike most other systems I've ever seen in any other MUD.

Like to play "evil?"

Dragonrealms has the necromancer guild which, through carefully crafted lore, is perfect for those wanting to destroy the world. Your character will be hated by all since your bent on destroying the very fabric of the world, but also will be granted unique access to powers unlike any other guild in the realms.

The thief guild offers a softer guild option for those who want to be a little bad, but not completely ostrasized. Steal what you can, skulk in the shadows, gain access to unique ambush skills and open treasure boxes.

Want to zip around the expansive lands of Elanthia?

You can play the ultimate utility guild, moon mage, and through various spells and powers open powerful portals and transport you and your friends to far away lands.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:49 AM   #70
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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Currently I'd say PvP in Dragonrealms is as balanced as its ever been. I really think having different areas of engagement, melee, ranged, pole and stealth, give a unique dimension to combat not seen in many other MUDs.
I googled the engagement system to see how it worked, and found some information here and here.

The idea seems to be that when you initiate combat you begin at missile range, then you can advance to polearm range, and then melee range. Seems like a reasonable abstraction for one-vs-one, but what happens if Bubba and Boffo both advance to melee range with Buffy, and then Bubba decides to attack Boffo - do they start at melee range (because they were both at melee range with Buffy), or at missile range?
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:35 AM   #71
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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I googled the engagement system to see how it worked, and found some information here and here.

The idea seems to be that when you initiate combat you begin at missile range, then you can advance to polearm range, and then melee range. Seems like a reasonable abstraction for one-vs-one, but what happens if Bubba and Boffo both advance to melee range with Buffy, and then Bubba decides to attack Boffo - do they start at melee range (because they were both at melee range with Buffy), or at missile range?
Bubba would have to disengage Buffy and advance on Boffo to get to melee with Boffo. Buffy however could attack either and face one or the other to have max defense against them.

Bubba could also use a ranged weapon, Dragonrealms has a cool thrown system as well as Crossbow, and Bows, and slings, so maybe Bubba takes out some throwing blades and throws them at Boffo while swinging at Buffy.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #72
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

Dragonrealms combat also understands facing, flanking and rear engagement. So if Jake and an Orc are at melee, facing each other, another Orc could advance and flank Jake. After a 2nd Orc flanks Jake, the 3rd would engaged from the rear. At any time Jake can FACE NEXT to adjust the engagement positions - though everyone remains at melee with regards to each other. Flanking/Rear attacks get a nice bonus, so must be considered when hunting.

Some of the issues resolved with the 3.0 release were:

* One-hit-critical deaths
* The concept of run-and-gunning - entering a room, shooting a ranged attack, and leaving the room before anyone can respond. We have a combat engagement timer that prevents you from immediately leaving.
* People using RETREAT over and over with a ranged weapon to chain a melee enemy. Retreating adds a stacking offensive penalty, to reduce this abuse.

Still up for improving, are ways to keep enemies at pole range so halberd/pike weapons are more viable, and ways for ranged characters to stay disengaged for longer to get more shots in on an enemy before it hits melee. This is currently accomplished with Crowd Control spells and abilities (stun, knockdown, immobilize, unconsciousness, webbed, etc) and judicious use of retreat.

To tie in with combat, the wound system of DR is dang impressive. 15 wound locations, internal/external wounds, fresh wounds and old wounds (scars), bleeding, burns, disease, poison and acid are all supported. Damage types include slice, puncture, impact, fire, cold and electrical.

Well, I could spend all day explaining it... but its just really deep, rather tactical, and I tend to enjoy combat almost as much as I enjoy crafting.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:10 PM   #73
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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Bubba would have to disengage Buffy and advance on Boffo to get to melee with Boffo. Buffy however could attack either and face one or the other to have max defense against them.
Strange. Let's try a different scenario:

Step 1: A1 enters a room, sees B1, and attacks him.

Step 2: A2 arrives and decides to join in, attacking B1 as well.

Step 3: B2 arrives, and decides to even the odds - he attacks A1.

At this point A1 and A2 are both attacking B1, while B1 and B2 are both attacking A1.

Presumably A1 could choose to switch his melee attacks to hit B2, as B2 is already hitting him with a melee weapon. But what happens if A2 decides to switch his attacks to B2, to take the pressure off his ally? Are you saying that if A2 switched to attack B2, he'd then suddenly be at missile range?

It would make more sense to calculate relative proximity - if A2 was in melee range of B1, who was in melee range of A1, who was in melee range of B2, then it stands to reason that A2 would be in melee range (or at the very least polearm range) of B2.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:31 PM   #74
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

Quote:
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I googled the engagement system to see how it worked, and found some information here and here.

The idea seems to be that when you initiate combat you begin at missile range, then you can advance to polearm range, and then melee range. Seems like a reasonable abstraction for one-vs-one, but what happens if Bubba and Boffo both advance to melee range with Buffy, and then Bubba decides to attack Boffo - do they start at melee range (because they were both at melee range with Buffy), or at missile range?
I wouldn't bother trying to poke holes in Dragonrealms' combat engine. It's easily far more robust than anything you'll find in the wild of free-to-play MUDs, although it's in the middle of some fine-tuning following an engine update.

I have, for the record, played God Wars 2.X and, yes, Dreagonrealms' combat engine is more advanced.

For an example of the specious situation you've proposed, here's your answer:

R> assess
You assess your combat situation...

You (nimbly balanced) are facing a Buffy (3) at melee range.
A Boffo (1: slightly off balance) is behind you at melee range.
A Bubba (2: very badly balanced) is behind you at melee range.
A Buffy (3: stunned and extremely imbalanced) is facing you at melee range.

I can hit all three of the engaged mobs in 90% of situations. There are some situations where the way the engagement is structured or the difficulty level of opponents prevents me from attacking one of the targets (typically the one(s) behind me). Most characters will have Area of Effect spells or abilities as well, so they can use those in those engagement-restricted situations.

Now that you've made your appeal to the superiority of your game's combat engine, I'd rather get on to why I hate Dragonrealms rather than praising its innovative and deep systems and potential.

I hate Dragonrealms because it is squandered potential writ large. Every time a simple, reasonable proposal for something is put forward to the staff, the response is muted or negative. Problems are allowed to snowball to the point where something breaks. The staff has a tendency to be unprofessionally abrasive, and complaints about staff behavior are met with "well so are you so shut up or I'll ban you."

As an example of how Dragonrealms can take a very basic problem and turn it into a clusterf**k of epic proportions, take the core problem of the game at current: the population split. There are about 50% of the players who have to go to distant zones to hunt because they are "powerful," and 50% that are able to stick around the populated areas and keep them, you know, populated. The players forced to go to the distant zones complain about this situation for literally years -- 12 of them to be exact -- and the staff response is varying shades of "shut up." Sometimes couched nicely, sometimes with empty promises, but generally it's a "shut up about this" response. The response leaned upon for about five years towards the end was it was a combat engine limitation (with no real answer to the question of "why don't you just import mob X to zone Y and be Z with it?" forthcoming). So the combat engine gets updated, mostly through the hard work of Juason who is posting here. New mobs are released. People shrug and go "Okay, whatever."

All of these new mobs are inferior to the existing mobs in the distant zones in their risk vs reward payout. Empirically worse. In the way that, for all you Diku-derived MUD players might be familiar with, it's as if you have two equal-level mobs, but one gave 110 xp and the other 100 xp, and the one giving 100 xp had a better lower and upper damage range and to-hit modifier and had a lower drop frequency than the 110 xp mob. That sort of empirically worse. When, with minimal fuss (35 rooms away there was a desert zone perfect for the desert zone mobs that continue to draw the high level characters), they could have simply imported the existing solution, written it off however the heck they wanted to (events are sort of an also-ran for high level characters, which is another problem unto itself -- when you remove players from role-playing environments for so long for training purposes, why would they go back to role-playing again?).

So yes, DR's combat system is the best you're ever going to find in a text-based game. That's not hyperbole or even an endorsement of the game. The reality is that it comes with even more baggage and poor decision-making than God Wars ever will, and I include that whole debacle with the guy who claims he invented Facebook (Twitter?) claiming to have written your code or whatever.

I've done MUDs from the design and development side as well (SWR and Shadows of the Empire, specifically). I'm not just blowing smoke up Simutronics' collective rears. I know that there's "a lot that you don't understand" going on behind the scenes, although I would never couch it like that. I realize that there are headaches with 100 players online that there aren't with 10 players online. I just don't accept excuses when the solutions aren't that hard to figure out, let alone implement.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:48 PM   #75
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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I wouldn't bother trying to poke holes in Dragonrealms' combat engine.
I'm not poking holes in anything, I'm simply discussing it, as I find it interesting to see alternative approaches, particularly for mechanics (such as weapon reach) which aren't common. These are discussion forums, they're intended for discussions.

Quote:
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So yes, DR's combat system is the best you're ever going to find in a text-based game.
As I stated on the Which MUD has the best combat system? thread:

Quote:
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It is indeed completely subjective. Combat plays an important role in many muds, and people tend to stick with the systems they like, so I suspect the majority of players consider their favourite mud to have the "best" combat system.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:07 PM   #76
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

Yeah.. we are painfully aware of the need for more high level hunting in the mainlands. The recent addition of Lava Drakes and Cabalists were to assist in this area - but more is being done and will result in reasonably accessible hunting for all skill levels.

Originally I believe it was a design decision, hence the mixed responses over the years. We have this huge game so why not force people to explore it? That sounds nice... but as you pointed out, it can be a huge negative for those folks wanting to RP more than explore.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:28 PM   #77
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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As I stated on the Which MUD has the best combat system? thread:
Oh no, Dragonrealms' is objectively the best. Tastes don't matter, you can make virtually any approach to combat that might suit your tastes work for you.

If you don't believe me, sign up for a trial and see for yourself.

Quote:
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Yeah.. we are painfully aware of the need for more high level hunting in the mainlands. The recent addition of Lava Drakes and Cabalists were to assist in this area - but more is being done and will result in reasonably accessible hunting for all skill levels.

Originally I believe it was a design decision, hence the mixed responses over the years. We have this huge game so why not force people to explore it? That sounds nice... but as you pointed out, it can be a huge negative for those folks wanting to RP more than explore.
A fantastic example.

I didn't say "more high level hunting on the mainland." I said "take X and move them to Y." Since I see no reason to mince words, let me throw it all out for you: take desert armadillos and put them in the blasted plains beyond the Gate of Souls near the Temple of Ushnish 35 rooms away from Dirge. Nothing more, nothing less.

You could do with deleting provinces and the rooms that are a part of them and moving their creatures into Zoluren and Ilithi too, as those are the only two provinces worth spending time in if you're seeking serious role-play. Straight delete 'em. When there were thousands of players logged in over the course of a weekend that much space to spread out made sense. Now it just reduces role-playing opportunities.

Last edited by ardent : 06-05-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:06 PM   #78
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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Oh no, Dragonrealms' is objectively the best.
I've seen people proudly claim exactly the same thing about dozens of other muds over the years, adamant that their particular mud is the "best". It's rather quaint to see people still doing it, but I'm afraid such claims are very unlikely to be taken seriously. I think it would be more constructive (and interesting) to discuss the actual features that the mud offers.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:21 PM   #79
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

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I've seen people proudly claim exactly the same thing about dozens of other muds over the years, adamant that their particular mud is the "best". It's rather quaint to see people still doing it, but I'm afraid such claims are very unlikely to be taken seriously. I think it would be more constructive (and interesting) to discuss the actual features that the mud offers.
Oh no, the challenge is laid bare. There's a free trial. Sign up, test it out for yourself.

I don't make the observation lightly. I have played virtually every major MU* derivation and a handful of "custom code" games as well. I even wrote my own combat engine that could handle range differences, facing, multi-engagement, and terrain (for the purposes of starship combat).

Dragonrealms' combat engine remains the best I have ever seen and the only unequivocally "good" thing about the game. There have been several attempts over the years to "improve" it (which is code for ruin) and they've all failed. It remains impressively robust despite the best efforts of Simutronics' staff.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:52 PM   #80
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Re: Join Dragonrealms today!

It is only the "best" if you like that particular type of combat system. I've played the type of combat where you advance and retreat - and frankly, I don't like it at all. I wouldn't like the best one, or the worst one. I don't like that system of combat, period.

I wouldn't say the game I play has the best combat system either, for the same reason. The combat system *I* like, isn't necessarily the kind of combat system someone else likes. And so for that person, the kind in the game I play, wouldn't be the best. It wouldn't even be mediocre.

The things that I like about the CS in the game I play, don't exist in Dragonrealms combat. But the things that DR features that attracts people who play it, don't exist in the game I play. Neither is the "Best" and neither is the "worst." They're just different.

It's like asking which is best: toast with cinnamon and sugar, or Ibanez guitars? The answer is: it depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for something to eat, then the toast wins. If you're looking for some musical distraction, I'd go for the Ibanez.
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