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Old 08-07-2013, 10:49 AM   #61
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Logical fallacies abound.

Your posts boil down to: You don't have the right to do things I wouldn't do.

People have the right to do a lot of things they probably shouldn't do.

Icculus putting up the banner is in my eyes a pretty accurate example of this.

He certainly had the right to do so whether I think he should have done so or not though.

Just because you don't feel Plamzi should do something does not equate to him not having the right to do so.

By trying to determine what other people can and can't do you're being far more judgmental than the person you're chastising for being judgmental.
You can argue this until you're blue in the face Fizban. It won't change my opinion on the matter. I just think one should be humble in understanding that running a site requires a certain degree of expertise. I don't pretend to tell a doctor how to do his job. It's not my place because I didn't get my medical degree. Therefore, I don't feel I have earned that right out of respect for everything that doctor has sacrificed.

That doesn't mean the lines of communication with feedback should be broken. It just means, there are more constructive ways to send feedback on a end result rather than explicitly defining what one should do or passing judgment their expertise, why they do certain things that you may have no understanding to the reasoning and so on.

That's just me though. My logic, my feelings on the matter.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #62
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I agree that it is sad when such a significant and positive element of the MUD community is in danger of ceasing to exist.

I disagree, however, that TMC has been the main hub of the Mud world for the last 5+ years. I think TopMudSites took over that role some time ago and has maintained it.

TopMudSites has by far the best forums and the best collection of active, experienced mud admins and game developers. Many if not most of the maintainers of the major MUD clients are active here either posting, reading, or both. Last but not least, it has a great group of players from a wide variety of types of MUDs.

The last few times there have been important issues threatening the MUD community, by far the best place to learn about and discuss those threats was right here. Wikipedia admins came HERE to discuss them, for example.

I salute TMC and the huge role it played in the history of MUDs, but honestly, it fell into disrepair many years ago. The forums have been an absolute abomination for a long, long time. You have to wonder about the motives of anyone willing to tolerate both the cumbersome forum software and the huge troll segment of the population there.

I don't know how Icculus tolerated that heavy troll population. Strangely, some of the same people who are utterly horrible on the TMC forums behave themselves much better here and on other sites. Its almost like even the members of the TMC forum community acknowledged decided as a group to treat TMC like 4chan and just ruin it for everyone else. Fortunately, there are great alternatives (TopMudSites) for people who want to have worthwhile discussions about MUDs.

That is the way of things. Just like TMC supplanted Doran's Mudlist, so too has TopMudSites supplanted TMC.
Long time lurker here never posted.. and ill have to disagree with everything said in this post... TopMudSites has not supplanted TMC, the forums here have always appeared to be cliquey. Mudconnector, has always had alot more traffic than most mud sites, due to its age, and the fact it was very well established in the mudding community. Granted there hasnt been alot of moderation to the site, and things have felt very stale for a long long time, but thats a part of how mudconnector is...

Mudbytes is where you go to discuss things about MUD and actually get decent responses, most of the time very helpful too, have never seen that on TMS, used to happen on TMC though.

Icculus never played favourites with anyone, never upped his own mud list to position one on the ranking system (the fact he doesnt have a mud is irrelevant) and always, apart from just recently was a very fair and stable admin.

The same cannot be said about a lot of Website administration
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:02 AM   #63
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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You can argue this until you're blue in the face Fizban. It won't change my opinion on the matter.
It's not about opinion.

When someone has no right to do something it is referring to a legal context.

Right and wrong has no bearing on what someone has the right to do. None. Not even the smallest bit. That's not an opinion. That's simply how it is.

I'm not debating what Plamzi should do - which is what you seem to be arguing and considering to be our point of disagreement - I'm pointing out that you stating he can't do something simply because you don't feel he should is a logical fallacy.

Much like your doctor example:

You have the right to criticize a doctor, you just choose not to exercise that right because you don't think you should do so out of respect for his expertise in the field.

You still have rights even when you choose not to exercise them.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:09 AM   #64
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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It's not about opinion.

When someone has no right to do something it is referring to a legal context.

Right and wrong has no bearing on what someone has the right to do. None. Not even the smallest bit. That's not an opinion. That's simply how it is.

I'm not debating what Plamzi should do - which is what you seem to be arguing and considering to be our point of disagreement - I'm pointing out that you stating he can't do something simply because you don't feel he should is a logical fallacy.

Much like your doctor example:

You have the right to criticize a doctor, you just choose not to exercise that right because you don't think you should do so out of respect for his expertise in the field.

You still have rights even when you choose not to exercise them.
I have no idea why you're even arguing this outside of the fact that you must educate someone on what having the right really means.

Stop trolling my post Fizban. I really could care less on what you think or what you're trying to emphasize outside of yourself as being correct or incorrect with my previous dialog.

Last edited by Famine : 08-07-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:16 AM   #65
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I really could care less on what you think
I'm glad you care.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:18 AM   #66
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

Sorry.. but where in this thread is Fizban trolling you? because i cannot see it anywhere... if anyone is trolling its Famine....
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:20 AM   #67
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Sorry.. but where in this thread is Fizban trolling you? because i cannot see it anywhere... if anyone is trolling its Famine....
My last post was trolling, that of course though came after he accused me of trolling, not before :P
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:24 AM   #68
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I'm glad you care.
Well, as you can see. I have a pretty big mouth when I choose to open it and I do care for something. Maybe not for your words, but I care about this subject matter. I mean, I've been registered here for a few years and that post was my first post on these forums.

I hope I didn't offend you too much. It's just a habit of sticking up for someone who I feel has done this community a good service for many years.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:27 AM   #69
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I just think one should be humble in understanding that running a site requires a certain degree of expertise. I don't pretend to tell a doctor how to do his job. It's not my place because I didn't get my medical degree.
We're into "really bad analogy" territory now. Sticking a banner on a website doesn't require a medical degree, and you don't need to run a website just to voice your opinion on someone else's. Would you automatically ignore feedback from players who haven't previously run their own muds?

Icculus performed a great service for the mud community, his efforts were appreciated by many, and at the end of the day the final decision was always going to be his. But that doesn't mean people didn't have the right to voice their disagreement with his decisions, if they felt so inclined. Suppression of dissent is not a desirable way to run any community, and this brings to mind an earlier discussion on TMC about banning players for posting negative reviews.

On a more serious note, doctors can and do make mistakes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting a second opinion if you have your doubts about a diagnosis. It might even save your life.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:31 AM   #70
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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If you didn't like the direction TMC was heading, then get off your ass and create your own MUD site that's better.
For the record, I joined TMC in 2009 and never liked the direction it was heading. I just used it to promote my game and help new admins, despite the bile that came from largely unmoderated trolls whose names we all know. If the forums had remained open after the Jesus affair, I would probably have continued to hold my nose and post promo stuff. Would you agree that you don't have to like everything about a site and its management in order to use it for a specific purpose?

I *am* running several MUD-related sites, including a forum for my game. I *am* trying to do better. I wouldn't think of posting irrelevant content on the forum, but if I did, I wouldn't sanction people for actually discussing it, nor would I "take my toys and go home."
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:37 AM   #71
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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We're into "really bad analogy" territory now. Sticking a banner on a website doesn't require a medical degree, and you don't need to run a website just to voice your opinion on someone else's. Would you automatically ignore feedback from players who haven't previously run their own muds?

Icculus performed a great service for the mud community, his efforts were appreciated by many, and at the end of the day the final decision was always going to be his. But that doesn't mean people didn't have the right to voice their disagreement with his decisions, if they felt so inclined. Suppression of dissent is not a desirable way to run any community, and this brings to mind an earlier discussion on TMC about banning players for posting negative reviews.

On a more serious note, doctors can and do make mistakes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting a second opinion if you have your doubts about a diagnosis. It might even save your life.
Well, I wasn't really referring to the whole banner issue. I was just speaking on the subtle opinion that someone should have done X and didn't run something right even before the whole banner incident came up. Kind of like using this one incident as an excuse to pile on more issues that happened in the past as well trying to pass judgement to make a point -- he/she didn't do a good job regardless and there can be better.

Maybe I'm looking to much into this, but that's what I got out the context.

On the analogy, I think it's a good one. It's not to say that voicing feedback is bad. It's more to say that feedback shouldn't be dictation or even subtly hinting at what dictation you should be doing. For example, telling a developer what to do rather than saying why you don't like something. Or with the medical example, diagnosing yourself because you googled your symptoms. It's just good practice, even in game development, to voice your opinion on what you experienced rather than trying to be that armchair developer, armchair web master, armchair whatever.

I would hope that of all people KaVir, you would get that.

Last edited by Famine : 08-07-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:21 PM   #72
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

Please do not troll. All the damage that could have occurred, happened already. I am the last one arrived here, but I wish mud to start becoming popular again. What happened to the TMC's forums is a bad episode, and everyone should take it as a lesson, never to happen again.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:26 PM   #73
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Please do not troll. All the damage that could have occurred, happened already. I am the last one arrived here, but I wish mud to start becoming popular again. What happened to the TMC's forums is a bad episode, and everyone should take it as a lesson, never to happen again.
If forums went down because of trolling, no forum would survive a day.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:33 PM   #74
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Please do not troll. All the damage that could have occurred, happened already. I am the last one arrived here, but I wish mud to start becoming popular again. What happened to the TMC's forums is a bad episode, and everyone should take it as a lesson, never to happen again.
Half the fun of the internet is discussing things with people. Exchanging ideas. Even when you're playing a mud, the fun part of the game is your interaction with other players. The brightest spot in your roleplaying day is having a heated in character argument with another character. The brightest spot in your PK day is a good fight, even if you lose. The brightest spot in your hack and slash day is getting together with a few other players and comparing who's doing better.

The downside of the internet is its anonymous nature. There are no consequences, there is no shame. It really paints an ugly picture of human nature. Absent repercussions, people are offensive to one another and totally incapable of having a civil discussion or exchange of ideas. I've been on muds where all kinds of discussion topics are banned, because people might be offended, because on the internet, people are offensive.

It's really sad when someone rushes to say, "Everyone shut up! Don't discuss this! Don't respond! It's going to turn into something ugly and uncivil. Learn from our past mistakes and don't discuss controversial issues!" It's really sad that this is the resolution people try to pursue because people on the internet are idiots.
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:37 PM   #75
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

This topic was going pretty good until Fizban decided to show up? I'm sure you guys have noticed that Fizban ruins topics and destroys forums. He acts like he's Mr. Knowitall and Mr. Right, no one can question him because he works on a wannabe Pro MUD with no players. It's really sad to see this guy act like he never does any wrong. I can already tell you how he'll respond to this post. First, he'll make a comment about how I'm a typical DBZ MUD owner because I dare spoke up against him. Second, he'll act like I'm stupid and talk about how I have no right to post. Third, he'll act like he's better than me because he claims he's grown up. Finally, he'll try to get others to gang up on me to make himself feel like he's done something good for the community.

This guy is sad, plain and simple. He needs to stop harassing Iccy, he needs to stop acting like he has control over other people and he needs to stop with his unneeded drama. You may call this post drama but it's needed since no one will stand up to this obvious troll who ruins communities.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:18 PM   #76
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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If forums went down because of trolling, no forum would survive a day.
That's for sure. However, the mudding community should focus on improve the mudding experience. To a simple user like me, you all are doing great stuff. Maybe someone lost a bit of focus in the way. I think I bought your Mudmaster for iPhone, by the way. I truly hope that mudding will become popular again. It is such a great way of gaming.

As to SnowTroll post, I did not want to propose a resolution "You all shut up, I am grown up". As I said, it is pretty evident (at least to me) that posting a religious banner in a mud websites is likely to trigger reactions from the community. If someone does not see that and claims anything about the freedom of speech it is really out of the way, in my opinion. It is like to have two women cooking in the same kitchen (you can troll me about that...good grounds on sex discrimination ).

Generally, people are stupid (and I am not excluding myself) and cannot assess huge problems RL poses, sometimes they do not want, sometimes they simply can't. That explains many things.

Admittedly, I have fun in interacting with people on the Internet, so I take pro and contra, and I take full liability of what I post. I am not so anonymous as it may seem; nor I shield myself with being anonymous in the first place. As you all know, the Internet started with everybody being anonymous but now such trend has kind of changed.

Truthfully, I started to post stuff because of mudding, otherwise I just used the Internet for working purposes. So the mudding community, including this site and TMC gave me a lot.

I just hope that form past mistakes we could learn something for the future.

English is not my native language, as I live in Italy, and I am 40 years old.

No offense is intended to anyone.

Peace to all.

Last edited by flbellman : 08-07-2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:21 PM   #77
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

Ozma, go troll somewhere else. Or better yet, stop trolling for once.

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This topic was going pretty good until Fizban decided to show up? I'm sure you guys have noticed that Fizban ruins topics and destroys forums. He acts like he's Mr. Knowitall and Mr. Right, no one can question him because he works on a wannabe Pro MUD with no players.

Quite the opposite, I encourage people to question - everything.

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Originally Posted by DarkOzma
It's really sad to see this guy act like he never does any wrong.
I've never claimed to not make mistakes nor made any claims that I am perfect.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm vocal enough, I don't need your help.

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Originally Posted by DarkOzma
I'm stupid and talk about how I have no right to post.
No. You have me confused with yourself. That's the problem. You and I are fundamentally different.

Cratylus and I told you before: If you don't like what you're reading go pick up a book.

You're the one that sees the need to tell others to stop posting.

I think everyone should be more vocal and speak their mind - even those with dissenting opinions.

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Originally Posted by DarkOzma
Finally, he'll try to get others to gang up on me to make himself feel like he's done something good for the community.
You got me confused with you again, you're the one trying to get the community to unite against me. You tried the same on MudBytes and TMC. You failed both times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkOzma
He needs to stop harassing Iccy, he needs to stop acting like he has control over other people and he needs to stop with his unneeded drama. You may call this post drama but it's needed since no one will stand up to this obvious troll who ruins communities.
I haven't been harassing Icculus. I think he acted rashly and made a few bad decisions. I think everyone makes such mistakes from time to time. I've emailed him back and forth several times over the past couple weeks and have had nothing but friendly discussion when doing so, and apologized to him for making him feel as if his time and effort were unappreciated, because that was never my intent.

I'm not making drama, I'm posting my opinion. You're the one taking offense with it and creating drama.

Last edited by Fizban : 08-07-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #78
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Let me clarify.

Unless you're running a MUD site, then you don't have to right to judge someone on how they are running that site. Especially being that site is the top of it's class for it's topic. To me, you have no right to judge in that case.

...yada yada yada...

You may not agree with that logic and that's fine. But to me, if you don't have experience doing something, then you should likely keep your mouth shut when trying to pass judgement or telling others what they should do...
Love this kind of attitude. You can come to Ateraan anytime Famine.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:57 PM   #79
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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This topic was going pretty good until Fizban decided to show up? I'm sure you guys have noticed that Fizban ruins topics and destroys forums. He acts like he's Mr. Knowitall and Mr. Right, no one can question him because he works on a wannabe Pro MUD with no players....and on.
Heh, I just read this and wondered, "who's Fizban?" <chuckle> DarkOzma, people only become famous when you make 'em famous.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:29 PM   #80
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Heh, I just read this and wondered, "who's Fizban?" <chuckle> DarkOzma, people only become famous when you make 'em famous.
I don't typically frequent TMS, but "Who's Fizban?" is certainly not a sentiment that many people on TMC or MudBytes would echo.

Though I'm certainly not claiming that that makes me "famous" by any means either.

Though it is nice to see that Ozma thinks so highly of 4 Dimensions and sees the need to badmouth it when I hadn't made any mention of it in any regard.
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