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Old 02-04-2014, 05:24 PM   #1
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The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

Time for my bimonthly installment of quirky MUD observations.

Input wanted!

Has anyone noticed that rogue and rogue-like classes are generally OP? I am not maligning them as a class, most of my characters are rogues generally... but the thief/rogue archetype has so many things going for it. I admit, lately I don't pick them, because I am simply sick of their RP.

1) They get to be swaggering, aloof, arrogant, and generally "cool" in their RP. They are usually the rebels of the game.

2) They often times get very unique class skills, like sneak, hide, and steal, and backstab that offer unique and extreme benefits in PVP and PVE.

3) In games where they are rolled, they usually have a high dexterity and high strength bonuses.

4) In many many MUDs they are the only class that can duel wield.

5) They are usually the most popular class in these games cause of their "coolness" factors and unique abilities.

6) Thief or rogue-like classes generally constitute the "secret/elite" guilds in MUDs, with annoyingly-good and sometimes game-breaking bonuses.

7) There usually aren't many maluses for the class. For example I have played one MUD where they were sort of glass cannons, with the ability to SOMETIMES one-shot someone if everything went right, but if they tried to go toe to toe witih a Fighter for example, they would get destroyed. However, enough rogues complained (large portion of the playerbase) and they were upped to the point where they could cartwheel around even the brawler-types in toe-to-toe melee, plus they still had their one-shot.

I think that it's best if rogues are treated more like thieves. Thieves should have midling combat skills, be not very strong, be not very fortified. They should never be able to stand with a Knight or a Fighter type in combat. Their benefit should be their unique skills (like steal), scout-like behaviors, and the ability to slip away.

In a lot of places though, they have the best of both worlds.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:26 PM   #2
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Re: The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

The 'thief' class in UL is sort of like you recommended.

There isn't an actual thief class, and the usual thiefly skills are rolled into one of four subclasses that physical fighters get. They aren't as good at many of the normal physical skills, in return for better stealth, larceny, and the ability to make and apply venoms to weapons.

The PvE and roleplay focus of the game is worth noting too. While you can steal coin and a few kinds of loot from PCs, it's discouraged In-Character with jail terms and fines if the thief is caught. You can always attempt to play a thief and agree out of character to pretend something was stolen though, and that can make for some fun RP without things getting out of hand.

I guess it's important to note that anyone can use the larceny skill to take the few categories of steal-able things, and the backstab equivalent isn't overpowered. The only advantage the 'thief' class gets is a higher skill cap/level and a way to easily train it on mobs.

Oh, and there's no super-secret thief club. A fight club, on the other hand...
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:17 AM   #3
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Re: The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

It sounds largely like an issue of game balance. I think some MUD designers are certainly guilty of making "badass" type races and classes disproportionately powerful.

The thief class you described sounds something like what we have. We have four sub-classes of thief (though you can mix and match the skills.) The first is a straight-up pickpocket making them very difficult to pin down even for a fighter, and they are capable of stealing stuff pretty easily but their melee is poor. The second and third mix poisons and make traps respectively. The fourth is a binder capable of rendering most opponents helpless if they manage to knock them out and throw the bindings on, and the fifth is a thuggish type thief, built for melee who employs a range of underhand tactics in combat to disadvantage unsuspecting enemies.

None of the thief sub-classes have the up-front edge over a melee class (like a warrior, or a paladin), but they have a series of annoying and/or underhand tactics to employ. Plus stealth.

The assassin class is a fairly strong defensive melee class with a lot of utility in their combat moves. However, once again they will not be able to compete in most cases with a decked out warrior. Assassins get the ability to assassinate (one-shot) any character, but it is a high-risk skill (often ending in the assassin's death if done wrong) and takes a lot of time, luck and preparation on their behalf. It is rarely successful.

Essentially both classes have their own little niches. When it comes to melee combat, very little can go toe-to-toe with a paladin, or a warrior in an up front battle. Stealth classes should be about subterfuge and cunning and shouldn't play like warriors.
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:21 PM   #4
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Re: The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

Fortunately, in Achaea rogue (serpents) are not so overpowered!
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:24 PM   #5
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Re: The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

I wouldn't say that every MUD has overpowered rogues/thieves. As PhasmaInMachina noted, it really is a product of that individual game's balancing.

Roleplay tastes are really up to each player (and, once again, the setting of the game). I have seen rogues portrayed in many ways in different games - some were the rakish and carefree archetype, while others were royal assassins, cultists, monks, rangers, and (slightly crooked) military officers. In fact, I've come to appreciate games that take the idea of rogues as 'dual wielding vagabond backstabber with martial arts influences and some sneaky skills' and turn it on its head, allowing the identity of the rogue to be shaped by the player, and in some cases, have different types of 'rogue' in the same game.

Of course, I am always on the hunt for games that break this mold, so let me know if you find/have found any.
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Old 04-01-2014, 06:13 AM   #6
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Re: The Overpowered Rogue of Awesomesauce Trend

Originally Posted by flbellman View Post
Fortunately, in Achaea rogue (serpents) are not so overpowered!
Depends on the Serpent, they're a class that sucks in 99% of the populace's hands but can destroy nearly anybody in the hands of a pro coder who figures out how to exploit everyone's system.
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